Learning about being guided and guide others

[Natcola]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
The desire to let go completely of the "I" instead of the rock and roll dance I am experiencing. I left my job in the health field to concentrate completely on letting go and be guided. To hear the real guidance. To let go of the "I" that has been so prevalent in my life.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
To be guided to let go once and for all. To be able to keep the "I" away once and for all. To help others to see what constricts them once I am no more an "I". this site "Liberation Unleashed" as been the one that made a difference for me. Reading the posts and the conversations, listening to the videos have been a great help. I want now this full time all the time

What is your past experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
ACIM. Ho'ponopono, Byron Katie.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? 11

[blackh]

Hi,

I'm Steve from New Zealand, and I'm happy to be your guide to assist you in seeing through this "I".

A certain intensity makes this work more effective so it would be good if you could look to post at least once a day (more often is fine), and I'll make the same commitment, though it is possible my family is about to ask me not to use my phone on Sundays. :)

If you're happy with that and happy for me to be your guide, then we can proceed.

Question: How are you expecting life to change after really seeing that no "I" can be found?


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve, thank you for taking the time.
Good to know you are not too far... I think still 3 hrs difference....
I will posts everyday as much as I can.
Ok so let's start: how do I expect my life to change after really seeing there is no I....
Well, when I make the exercises now to see behind the"I" and the "I " disappears, I look at every emotions and every thought passing through my mind. I look behind it and it loses its"life" and disappears and all that is left is this instant where no words can really describe it its almost like a state of being where there is no body no thoughts no limits... it's oneness with no labels no names no bodies just oneness. I have only started doing these exercises lately after reading the articles and the book and listening to some videos.
However it seems that I can't stay there. I know practice makes perfect and I shall do it as often as possible....
Now after these experiences how do I expect my life to change ? I actually don't expect any changes from my physical life. I think that everything will continue around me. However I was thinking that my moments with these experiences will then become prevalent and I (!) will be able to go through this "life in oneness.
I might have this completely wrong.
For all I can see right now when I do the exercise I love the end result however when the next exchange with someone happens- it's usually gone. Then I believe and react as an I.
I am determined to see this through once and for all and just in the past 2 days have found myself reacting less. Loved it. Want more. Want it all the time.....
Again Steve thank you for taking the time.
Have a great night,
Nat


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[blackh]

Hi Nat,

However it seems that I can't stay there.

The way to approach this is that it's all about seeing what's there. Experience will follow but it will change like the weather. Feeling good stuff like peace and oneness is important for confirmation but not a reliable way to measure whether you have "got it" or not. If that's what you base it on, then you'll keep thinking you've "lost it" and wonder what you are doing wrong. If you can see what's there, then when you feel "bad" you will see it in a different way. So make it about what's true.

How is "I" experienced? Does it have a size, shape, colour, physical location or other attributes? Does it come and go or is it always there? Another way to ask this question: Pick an activity such as walking or eating. What tells you that "I" am doing it?


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Nat,

However it seems that I can't stay there.

The way to approach this is that it's all about seeing what's there. Experience will follow but it will change like the weather. Feeling good stuff like peace and oneness is important for confirmation but not a reliable way to measure whether you have "got it" or not. If that's what you base it on, then you'll keep thinking you've "lost it" and wonder what you are doing wrong. If you can see what's there, then when you feel "bad" you will see it in a different way. So make it about what's true.

How is "I" experienced? Does it have a size, shape, colour, physical location or other attributes? Does it come and go or is it always there? Another way to ask this question: Pick an activity such as walking or eating. What tells you that "I" am doing it?


Steve

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,
It has been a challenge how to reply to your post due to my thickness with programs....I can't seem to figure out how to copy and paste...
Ok

Feeling good stuff like peace and oneness is important for confirmation but not a reliable way to measure whether you have "got it" or not

Ok I believe I understand this totally. Thank you for reminding me. I understand by questioning the I at all times and see beyond it it falls away. What is after that can be called many names however it is not the destination that is important is the work of desintagrating the idea of the I.

Pick an activity such as walking or eating. What tells that "I" am doing it

I had my morning coffee this morning. I observed myself doing the coffee than sitting and enjoying it. Before the enjoyment there was no emotions. I was merely observing a body doing coffee and sitting. Than I went beyond looking at a body and again that stillness with no emotions, no body, no-thing. Then I sat down and took my first sip. The enjoyment I felt brought me back to identify with my body and that joy of first coffee in am. I then looked at the emotion and looked beyond it. Back to that stillness. I can see clearly that this body this I with emotion is not real.
As I was drinking the coffee and observing and going beyond, the cats started wanting to fight, with the dog cowering between them: right away back to identify to I and reacting to the cats and dog. Once I separated everyone, I sat again and recapitulated what just happened: an action happens outside of I and I react according to whatever emotions it brought in my body/ mind. It's easy once it is finished and I sit down to look at it and see beyond. But I lose the "look beyond" the I when an emotion comes up,when it's happening or better yet seem to be happening. The funniest thing is that I used to be proud of how "passionate" I use to feel about everything lol! So clear now. But unclear how to remain the observer the look beyond at all times....
Hope you have a great Sunday. Looking forward to hear from you when it's appropriate for you.
Nat

[blackh]

Hi Nat,

It looks like you figured it out. I did end up having a day off phones yesterday.

I then looked at the emotion and looked beyond it. Back to that stillness. I can see clearly that this body this I with emotion is not real.

In what way is the body / I with emotion not real? What makes something real or not real? Is the cup of coffee real?

But unclear how to remain the observer the look beyond at all times....

Are you the observer?


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,
Hope you had a great Sunday with your family.

In what way is the body / I with emotion not real?

In my present understanding of all this, my body /my thoughts everything that constitute the I is not real. So everything my eyes looks at, my body feels is not real but part of that illusion we call I. So with that understanding the cup of coffee is noyt real, I used for my exercise. However now that you have asked the question it makes the answer clearer in my mind.

What makes something real or not real

Again in my present understanding, the only thing real is the world where no I or separation or labelling exist. I call it oneness but again that's labelling.

Is the cup of coffee real?

Definitely not in my present understanding

Are you the observer?

Ah Ah!!!! that question made me laugh!!!!!!! Of course I am not, as being an observer would be being an I!!!!!! Duh Nat!
Loved it.
So then the no "Isness" world (oneness for me) really mean being there at all times. There is no observer or observee in that world but if for some reason I resurface then it is to recognise again and again there is no I.......
I realise as I try to explain what I want to say, that I am actually quite limited in words how to explain it LOL!!!!! I don't want to say oneness cause even that word is not enough to describe it and i don't even want to use the term world! lol....
What a simple question...... This is awesome. I know I am not there yet, but this is...liberating lol!!!
Bring it on Steve!
Have an awesome day!
Nat

[blackh]

Hi Nat,

Is the cup of coffee real?
Definitely not in my present understanding

I am aware that some non-dual philosophies say that the world is in some sense not real. But, this inquiry needs to be very practical, and philosophy is not helpful. I need to be able to say that the coffee cup is real in a way that Santa is not. Is it possible for us to agree on some definition of 'real' that makes that possible?

What a simple question...... This is awesome. I know I am not there yet, but this is...liberating lol!!!
Bring it on Steve!

So maybe you're not the observer. If there's any doubt, do this exercise:

Look at a view, perhaps the view out a window. Now, while looking, turn your attention to the seer - that which is the receiver of the visual information. What do you find? Is there any evidence of a self that is the seer?

You might find it helpful to close your eyes while looking at the view, then search for the self immediately after opening them again.


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,

I am aware that some non-dual philosophies say that the world is in some sense not real. But, this inquiry needs to be very practical, and philosophy is not helpful.

I am sorry Steve a bit confused here but still following . I was not trying to introduce any philosophical ideas or beliefs. I do realised what i said does comes from my background with but i am trying to be as transparent as I can here. Thank you for the tip.

I need to be able to say that the coffee cup is real in a way that Santa is not. Is it possible for us to agree on some definition of 'real' that makes that possible?

I can see that the cup of coffee i am looking at is real compared to Santa Claus. Easy concept. Not a problem

Look at a view, perhaps the view out a window. Now, while looking, turn your attention to the seer - that which is the receiver of the visual information. What do you find? Is there any evidence of a self that is the seer?

This is where I now got confused after your precedent statement. There is a receiver of the visual information the same way the coffee cup is "real". The way I understand, is that I am only receiving info on what I am looking at. If I think of the body looking out there, than I am the seer if I can identify myself with the seer surely that an I isn't it?... Confused or what?? Sorry....

You might find it helpful to close your eyes while looking at the view, then search for the self immediately after opening them again.

With doing this, I felt no self just receiving the image with no thought of self.
Thank you for taking the time Steve...

[blackh]

Hi Nat,

Sorry for the confusion. I am trying to get my head around where you're coming from.

With doing this, I felt no self just receiving the image with no thought of self.

Nice work! So in that experiment, there was no evidence of any 'thing' or 'entity' found in experience as the observer.

Here's an exercise for you about perception:

Place a cup (or other object) in front of yourself. Have a good look at it using sight only. Tell me, what do you know about it from the evidence of sight, and what is filled in by thought?


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,

So in that experiment, there was no evidence of any 'thing' or 'entity' found in experience as the observer

So... does that mean I am an observer? or is it used as a word to describe the action? like the cup of coffee?

Place a cup (or other object) in front of yourself. Have a good look at it using sight only. Tell me, what do you know about it from the evidence of sight, and what is filled in by thought?

Ok.

Evidence of sight: I see a tall transparent glass with a clear liquid in it.

Thought filling: There is water in that glass. The water does not keep cool so its probably already warm: needs more ice. The glass is only a third full. I am thirsty.The glass has finger prints on it.Do I really want water? What about an iced coffee? I have used this glass a few times will need to clean it next time I fill it up. I like this tall glass... it's like my glass. I always use it. I have already broken 2, hope this one will last longer.Maybe i should get more if this one brakes too.

Interesting experience... :)
Nat

[blackh]

Hi Nat,

So in that experiment, there was no evidence of any 'thing' or 'entity' found in experience as the observer

So... does that mean I am an observer? or is it used as a word to describe the action? like the cup of coffee?

That's ultimately for you to decide. My job is to get you to ask yourself the question. I think I'll leave this for now and come back to it later.

Evidence of sight: I see a tall transparent glass with a clear liquid in it.

How did you know it was a glass?

---
Earlier I asked you this:

How is "I" experienced? Does it have a size, shape, colour, physical location or other attributes? Does it come and go or is it always there? Another way to ask this question: Pick an activity such as walking or eating. What tells you that "I" am doing it?

You talked about how you were observing a body doing coffee and sitting. I really need to know how you are identifying so I can help you see through it. It is useful to know the ways in which you're not identifying to get the bigger picture, but it doesn't give me anything to work with. I hope you can see what I mean.

I am really looking for a short summary of all the ways you can think of in which you experience "I". Is it found in the body? Is it a feeling that goes along with actions? What else is there? What are you?

Could you answer in that sort of way?


Steve

[Natcola]

Hi Steve,

How did you know it was a glass?

I dont as an evidence of sighting: my thoughts told me it was a glass.
If I use no thoughts to describe what i see then there is no words because it is only an image with no labels or explanations. Explanation come from the thoughts. So if I look at the glass I experiment the glass with no thought. it is an experience. nothing to describe but everything to "see", feel maybe but feeling comes which again can trigger thoughts But i can experience seeing a glass with a satisfaction feeling and no thoughts.

I really need to know how you are identifying so I can help you see through it

Gotcha
I believe I identify with all my body, mind, thought experiences. I identify myself through my job. through being a mother. I define myself through everything that touches me in anyway and creating thoughts and emotions.

Is it found in the body? Is it a feeling that goes along with actions?

I do believe that we all identify to and through our bodies, sensations, emotions and thoughts. Emotions creates reaction creates actions. Thoughts creates actions.

What am i?

..... My present understanding is that I am "Presence" having experiences though an "I" or self which is a body.
Steve, I hope this is a bit clearer for you. I took my time to answer and trying not to give you confusing answers...
Nat

[blackh]

Hi Nat,

Nice answer about the glass. Sight just gives an image, and thought fills in the explanations.

I believe I identify with all my body, mind, thought experiences. I identify myself through my job. through being a mother. I define myself through everything that touches me in anyway and creating thoughts and emotions.

I do believe that we all identify to and through our bodies, sensations, emotions and thoughts. Emotions creates reaction creates actions. Thoughts creates actions.

..... My present understanding is that I am "Presence" having experiences though an "I" or self which is a body.

That's great. I'll use this as a bit of a map.

Let's look at "thoughts create actions".

When you are eating, there are a lot of complex actions but not much thought. Can actions happen that are not caused by thoughts?

What causes thoughts? Close your eyes and look carefully. Is there a "place" in experience where thoughts come from? Look in that place. Can you see what causes them?


Steve