Glimpsed, not entered

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Lln
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Glimpsed, not entered

Postby Lln » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:10 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I want to see through the story of the self in a real, lasting way. Pointed conversations with someone who knows seems the most effective approach. Sometimes I get a glimpse or feel of the spaceless/timeless that we exist in, but never a full hard stare.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
I'm looking for room to breathe and laugh and be less caught up in things in order to become a more effective, compassionate person. Overall, once the process is over, I expect things to continue largely as they always have, but with a different timbre or hue.

What is your past experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've practiced zazen for ten years, along with mantra work and shaking/intuitive movement. I've spent some time working with the hua to "who is this," which feels like it's gotten me closest. I've worked on and off with the lu app for about 3 years.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? 11

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b0dhi
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby b0dhi » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:49 pm

Hi Lin!

Welcome to LU. My name is Bodhi and I'm a guide here.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, it's a bit backed up here.

I'm happy to have a conversation with you to help you move forward, if you like.

Let me know when you are ready to begin. And do let me know by what name you would like me to refer to you, Lin or another name?

Speak soon.
Bodhi

Nothingness dances to an unhearable song

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Lln
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby Lln » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:19 pm

Hi Bodhi!

Thanks for being in touch! I'm very excited to work together.

I go by L.

I look forward to hearing from you!

L.

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b0dhi
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby b0dhi » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:42 pm

Good to meet you, L. :)

Well, let's start with an introduction to your journey so far. Tell me anything that you feel is important.

In particular do let me know what you feel is missing.
Bodhi

Nothingness dances to an unhearable song

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Lln
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby Lln » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:01 pm

I've been working on this problem ever since I read Alan Watts' the taboo on knowing who you are 10 years ago.

Intellectually, I understand the absence of a self, and I've popped through into the experiential understanding many times, sometimes deeply in a way that stuck with me for a while, most of the time in small mundane ways.

I guess why I'm here is that it's never become a constant knowing. I regularly get pulled back inot the narrative, and am hoping this process can help me deepen and stabilize.

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b0dhi
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby b0dhi » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:09 pm

Hey L.

Alan Watts, what a guy! I'm a fan of his expressive eloquence.
Intellectually, I understand the absence of a self, and I've popped through into the experiential understanding many times, sometimes deeply in a way that stuck with me for a while, most of the time in small mundane ways.
What was different between this intellectual understanding and the experiential understanding? How could you tell that the two were not the same understanding?
I regularly get pulled back inot the narrative
Please clarify what you mean by the term narrative for my understanding. Again, how is it different being in and out of the narrative?

Thanks L :)
Bodhi

Nothingness dances to an unhearable song

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Lln
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby Lln » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:02 am

This is hard for me to put into words, but I'll do my best.
What was different between this intellectual understanding and the experiential understanding? How could you tell that the two were not the same understanding?
The intellectual understanding is contained inside thoughts, but the experiential understand is outside thought: a kind of "oh! Is that all it is?" in my gut. So even though there are still thoughts, there's a space around them where I used to think I was.
Please clarify what you mean by the term narrative for my understanding. Again, how is it different being in and out of the narrative?
By narrative I mean the story of the self in thoughts. The space around thoughts isn't constantly experienced, and a lot of the time I find myself wrapped up in the story of my self.

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b0dhi
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby b0dhi » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:37 am

Hey L

Good job - thanks for the clarification. Very helpful :)
So even though there are still thoughts, there's a space around them where I used to think I was.
The space around thoughts isn't constantly experienced, and a lot of the time I find myself wrapped up in the story of my self.
I'm understanding this to mean that when you have a certain space around thoughts, there is a higher level of non-attachment to the story of thoughts - the narrative? In this case, thoughts can be allowed to be "just" thoughts. Whereas when there is attachment, they become "my" thoughts.

Let me know if the above makes sense. If it does, can you let me know what makes a thought "just a thought", and what makes another thought "my thought"?
Bodhi

Nothingness dances to an unhearable song

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Lln
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby Lln » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:30 pm

I'm understanding this to mean that when you have a certain space around thoughts, there is a higher level of non-attachment to the story of thoughts - the narrative? In this case, thoughts can be allowed to be "just" thoughts. Whereas when there is attachment, they become "my" thoughts.
Exactly!
can you let me know what makes a thought "just a thought", and what makes another thought "my thought"?
My initial reaction is that they're both thoughts with different content, one of which relates to an "I." So, there is no real difference between them. Thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, sights, sounds, tastes, smells are all broad categories, some of which get attached to and "I" thought.

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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby b0dhi » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:12 pm

My initial reaction is that they're both thoughts with different content, one of which relates to an "I." So, there is no real difference between them.
Marvellous :)

Thoughts are just....well...thoughts.

But then we have this categorisation of thought. One kind of thought is impersonal. The other is personal. The latter refers in some manner to an "I".

Then there is an attachment to this thought, the one that refers to an "I". The thoughts multiply.

This creates the "narrative" that you mentioned you get stuck in. The story about this "I".

Where is this "I"? What is it actually? What is it in reality? How would you describe it?

Good going L! :)
Bodhi

Nothingness dances to an unhearable song

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Lln
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby Lln » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:17 pm

Where is this "I"? What is it actually? What is it in reality? How would you describe it?
I don't know if I can say for sure. Wading through thoughts feelings and sensations that I can't identify as me, I get to something "behind" it all that I'll call Observing. I think this is what I've always thought of as the core of myself.

The funny thing is, it's very slippery to get a child on and look at, mostly because I've always assumed an observer was observing. Looking closely at it, I don't think that's true. The Observing encapsulates the "I" observer and the observed.

It's like a mirror reflecting the world, but there is no mirror. Just the world.

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Lln
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby Lln » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:19 pm

*Hold, not child. Thanks autocorrect!

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b0dhi
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby b0dhi » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:38 am

*Hold, not child. Thanks autocorrect!
This had me going for a second. The image it put in my mind was quite hilarious :)
It's like a mirror reflecting the world, but there is no mirror. Just the world.
Now that statement is just so damn beautiful!

The truth of the matter is that we are so used to the comfort of our unquestioned assumptions, that they become our reality. As you observed "I've always assumed an observer was observing". We don't see reality as it is anymore, what we see are our assumptions about what reality should be like.

When we look for this "I", we cannot find anything solid or tangible. Yet our assumption is that it must be a "thing" of some sort. After all, if it is not a "thing" then it cannot really exist.

Upon questioning the assumption, it becomes clear that this "I", this "me", this person called "L", is just an assumption. In reality, it cannot be found. Like a mirage, it seems to have substance until you get close enough and then *POOF* - It's gone!

How does it feel to you to see this? What is shifting? Is there more than just an intellectual understanding - does it begin to qualify as an experiential understanding?
Bodhi

Nothingness dances to an unhearable song

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Lln
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby Lln » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:43 pm

How does it feel to you to see this? What is shifting? Is there more than just an intellectual understanding - does it begin to qualify as an experiential understanding?
It feels like not a shift of focus but a broadening of view to acknowledge something that has never not been. You and I and everything else still exist in the same way we did before, but also nothing has ever existed as separate from the flow of experience.

I would call it experiential understanding in little bursts and pops, colored by intellectual understanding. Like oscillations between unity and duality.

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b0dhi
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Re: Glimpsed, not entered

Postby b0dhi » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:31 pm

It feels like not a shift of focus but a broadening of view to acknowledge something that has never not been.
That is great :)
I would call it experiential understanding in little bursts and pops, colored by intellectual understanding. Like oscillations between unity and duality.
Very eloquently put.

Let's see if we can deepen the unity by looking for duality in experience.

If you could close your eyes whilst seated and bring your attention to the point of contact between you and the seat. In a relaxed manner, let the attention rest on exactly the place where the body and the seat meet.

What do you find there?

Do you find a body and a chair in the experience? Or do you only find the sensation of feeling?

Is there a sens-er and a sens-ed, or is there only one thing - sensing?
Bodhi

Nothingness dances to an unhearable song


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