I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Kamil
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:54 pm

I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby Kamil » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:57 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
The most genuine answer I can give is the desire to finish suffering. By suffering I mean endless and everyday confusion caused by the thought process (that silly, separate self which disturbs in everyday life). I've been - what people call - a spiritual seeker for a couple of years already. I'm 35 and by now nothing, no relationship, no hobby, none of aspects of my life was so fulfilling and engaging as the words of people as Eckhart Tolle, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Barry Long, Ramana Maharishi, etc. Nothing, apart from life (experience) itself.

I'm rather an easy going person that loves to enjoy life. However, as I mentioned already, there is something that deeply interferes. Inner dialogue - involuntary thought process.

After quite a few books and websites during those years I decided to search for a forum in order to find "ordinary" people's "spiritual" experiences. On the very first one I encountered Rikki's posts. This is how I found this website. I've done some reading already and I've got the quotes application. When I'm present I can see that the self is illusion, however that instant moment of understanding it wholly from which there is no way back hasn't happened for me yet.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
I know already that it is feasible to end that suffering. I know there are quite a few people that made it, or it just happened to them. I know that you belong to the first group and therefore I'm deeply interested in what you are doing. I want to loose "myself" for good. I'm aware that the process of liberation refers "just" to the pure experience of life, so to speak, and I do not expect that It will bring any changes to the external circumstances of my life. Although I'm aware it may happen, but that's not the reason why I'm doing it. Being free is the priority.

What is your past experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I think I've already answered to this question to some extent. The teachers or masters I've been following so far talk about the very same thing. They may differ when it comes to the form but that's only the limitations of language. Reading or listening to their words gives me that sense of lightness, freedom or fulfilment. Impossible to describe. This is the moment when language is simply not enough, yet it is the necessary tool.

I've been trying TM for a period of one month as well, but I found repeating a mantra pointless. It only increased the amount of thoughts. Some people claim it helps them, it might do, but it's fruitless for me. Therefore I stopped it.
For last few months I've been listening a lot to Barry Long tapes while at work. It "feels" the same as reading the books by other masters and his approach is much more based on practice, than Eckhart Tolle's (just an example). However, lately, since I discovered Rikki and this website I stopped listening to the tapes, simply because I feel that I do not need it now.
So all my spiritual practices come to reading and listening on a daily basis. It gives me that beautiful detachment.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? 11

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5660
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:58 pm

Hi Kamil,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the ‘separate self’. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers. If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Just let me know if you are okay with me being your guide and that you have read the disclaimer and so on, and we can then start the exploration.

Cheers, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Kamil
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby Kamil » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:56 pm

Hello Kay,

Yes, I am pleased with you being my guide. I have acquainted myself with all the essential texts and I'm ready "to start the exploration".

Cheers, Kamil

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5660
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:56 pm

Hey Kamil,

Wonderful! So let's proceed! :)

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

This exploration is based on questions. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what you already actually know, not through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. What is LOOKING?

‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual down to the actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

Could you please answer the 5 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?


Please answer the questions highlighted in blue text individually, and remember to highlight the question being answered by using the quote function.

Cheers, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Kamil
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby Kamil » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:02 am

Hi Kay,
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
Since you are asking for actual experience the answer to all of above question is nothing, silence, emptiness, stilness or lightness (I'm trying to be accurate using words). Then the mind comes describing and analysing the experience. It says what and why is happening.

Thanks

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5660
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:28 am

Hey Kamil,

We can't jump from A-Z, because that is a denial of what is appearing. We aren't here to deny what is appearing but to see that what is appearing is experience itself.

Those five questions are a lead in to becoming aware of expectations. So both you and I know what expectations you have about seeing through the illusory self, so that we can address them. So, I would appreciate it if you could answer them for me please.

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?


Please answer them individually.

Cheers, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Kamil
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby Kamil » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:19 pm

Hey,

When I accepted our cooperation you sent me a message with instructions regarding my approach to our conversations. Let me quote some lines from it, please:
ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
This exploration is based on questions. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what you already actually know, not through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual down to the actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.
As far as I understand it we are not concerned with the thoughts at all. I just look and observe. I'm not trying to create or invent anything. Thoughts are not invited.
How will life change?
First question. I ask it and I look. No concepts involved. Being honest. If I'm not to use any thoughts than I see nothing. That nothing doesn't bother me. It's nice and easy. No problem. The question do not mean anything to me. Nothing arises. I can just sit like that and enjoy it. Some thoughts try to appear, but I have no interest in them, they've got nothing to hook on and they disappear straight away.
If despite that you asked me to contemplate on the question in order to come up with something, than I would have to "go" into thoughts and imagination. I would have to create something for the sake of that question.
So let me do it now:
I do not know how life will change.The question assumes that liberation happened and ask about the future. It's a bit of an abstract concept for me. I'm aware that I do not know the future, therefore It's pointless to try to create any assumptions. Anything can happen with or without liberation. I hope you understand me.
How will you change?
Second question is the same as the first one. It asks about the future. In order to say anything about it I will have to try to imagine things, or at least observe the imagination. "Leave" the presence and "loose" myself in a thought stream. Although, it is clearly against the above instructions. It asks about the content of thoughts.
I do not know how and if I will change. The way I understand it, it is different with various people. It's more like a shift in perception. Nothing else changes, however, the approach to life might change simply because you perceive life differently. If the approach to life changes, the circumstances of individual might change, but they don't have to. This doesn't interest me. These are just concepts. One could just go with "what if" further and further. But that's just imagination and that doesn't interest me as well.
What is important and what I've been looking for is the end of confusion which is suffering. The end of loosing my attention in involuntary thought processes, in that trance during which I'm not even aware of the fact that I'm alive, I'm not aware of my surroundings, I cannot feel my breath. It comes and goes constantly in circles. "Emotional thinker" keeps thinking same thoughts over and over again. It steels my attention and stands between me and the world. I'm really not interested in listening to that staff. Most of it is so silly. I do not know whether the thoughts and emotions are the problem, or the illusory identification with them. The fact is that it distracts, it forces/imposes itself on my attention, creates many problems in situations where there is none, it fears of basically everything etc. There are moments, when it simply makes me laugh from its foolishness. I can see that people around suffer from the same "alien". When I observe others I can see them being lost in thoughts, lost in that trance, not being present. I'm aware that it affects most of humanity. Another thing is that vast majority of planet population is not even aware that thoughts are not created by them, that they are not "their" thoughts. But that another story, and we are not interested in stories.
Ok, so that was the question number two. It took some energy from me. I had to loose my presence in the la la land. Thoughts and imaginations. It's good to be back.
What will be different?
I wrote it in previous question. It looks like the perception changes. Nothing else. I know it from reading. Although I remember it from the "glimpses of reality', or the "insights" I had in the past as well. Indeed, the way I remember those moments is that the perception changes. Nothing else. Very subtle, but makes huge difference. If you want to ask me, if I try to re-live those insights or is it a reference point for me in the presence..., it is not. I'm not to concern with the past. Past cannot be relived because it's obvious it doesn't exist. So, I do not want "to get" the same experience, because it would be nonsense.
What is missing?
According to the instructions, no thoughts, just what is, simple presence, emptiness. Nothing is missing. At that moment nothing is missing. I do not want to imagine "what if" and so on. The fact is that nothing is missing. Not even single thing. No wanting or trying.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
The quote from the Liberation Unleashed home page:
Do you exist?
It is a strange question and it’s not something we normally ask. But what if the answer is no, there is no ‘you’. There is no separate self in the way it’s thought to exist. Would you have the courage and curiosity to find out for yourself?
Yes I would.


Thanks a lot for your time, Kay. I do appreciate the fact that someone wants to help and shares (probably) the greatest knowledge ever with others. :) I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5660
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:21 am

Hi Kamil,
As far as I understand it we are not concerned with the thoughts at all. I just look and observe. I'm not trying to create or invent anything. Thoughts are not invited.
Thoughts are actual experience and are as important as colour, sound, smell, sensation and sound. Thoughts are what perpetuate the concept of there being a ‘you’ who is a person, followed by the belief in time and the belief in the body. We will be looking at thought, first, shortly.
How will life change?
I do not know how life will change.The question assumes that liberation happened and ask about the future. It's a bit of an abstract concept for me. I'm aware that I do not know the future, therefore It's pointless to try to create any assumptions. Anything can happen with or without liberation. I hope you understand me.
Great, so what you are saying is that you have no idea, no expectations whatsoever on life being different in any way…that life will continue as it now.

However, there is already an idea that there is someone that can get lost in a stream of thought. There is no one that can do that or to whom that can or is happening to.
How will you change?
What is important and what I've been looking for is the end of confusion which is suffering. The end of loosing my attention in involuntary thought processes, in that trance during which I'm not even aware of the fact that I'm alive, I'm not aware of my surroundings, I cannot feel my breath. It comes and goes constantly in circles. "Emotional thinker" keeps thinking same thoughts over and over again. It steels my attention and stands between me and the world. I'm really not interested in listening to that staff. Most of it is so silly. I do not know whether the thoughts and emotions are the problem, or the illusory identification with them. The fact is that it distracts, it forces/imposes itself on my attention, creates many problems in situations where there is none, it fears of basically everything etc. There are moments, when it simply makes me laugh from its foolishness. I can see that people around suffer from the same "alien". When I observe others I can see them being lost in thoughts, lost in that trance, not being present. I'm aware that it affects most of humanity. Another thing is that vast majority of planet population is not even aware that thoughts are not created by them, that they are not "their" thoughts. But that another story, and we are not interested in stories.
Ok, so that was the question number two. It took some energy from me. I had to loose my presence in the la la land. Thoughts and imaginations. It's good to be back.
Where did you go, if it’s good to be back….that in itself is a concept, as is trying to be in the ‘present’. There is no past, present or future, there is only ‘now’. And there is no ‘you’ who goes into a trance or who is ‘alive, living a life’!

There is also no one who is controlling or thinking thoughts, and thoughts will continue to appear as they always have done. If you were the thinker/controller of thoughts, surely you would choose to have only positive and pleasant thoughts!

There is no one who is suffering or who is confused either, however, yes, paradoxically, when seeing through the illusion of the separate self, suffering does cease…but not immediately, it does seem to take a little time after ‘seeing’ for that to fall away…but it does. Confusion and doubts come and go, although that falls away after a time as well. Going through the gate is only the beginning and an ending.
What will be different?
I wrote it in previous question. It looks like the perception changes. Nothing else. I know it from reading. Although I remember it from the "glimpses of reality', or the "insights" I had in the past as well. Indeed, the way I remember those moments is that the perception changes. Nothing else. Very subtle, but makes huge difference. If you want to ask me, if I try to re-live those insights or is it a reference point for me in the presence..., it is not. I'm not to concern with the past. Past cannot be relived because it's obvious it doesn't exist. So, I do not want "to get" the same experience, because it would be nonsense.
Yes, perception changes.
How is it obvious that the past doesn’t exist? Can you tell me more about that please?
Thanks a lot for your time, Kay. I do appreciate the fact that someone wants to help and shares (probably) the greatest knowledge ever with others. :) I'm looking forward to hearing from you.
You’re welcome.

Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Kamil
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby Kamil » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:52 am

Hey Kay,
How is it obvious that the past doesn’t exist? Can you tell me more about that please?
I understand for a few years already that past and future is an illusion. It's imposible to be in the past or in the future. All we ever have is the present moment. It's very easy to see it and it's extremely obvious. Even science accepts that as a fact. Life happens only in the present. Our brain through memory "creates" the past and through imagination "constructs" the future. These are only automatic functions of the brain. So past(memory) and future(imagination-expectations) are just some thoughts, nothing else. Although understanding of it does't make the mind to stop thinking about the past or imagining future.

Thanks,

Kamil

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5660
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:15 am

HI Kamil,
How is it obvious that the past doesn’t exist? Can you tell me more about that please?
I understand for a few years already that past and future is an illusion. It's imposible to be in the past or in the future. All we ever have is the present moment. It's very easy to see it and it's extremely obvious. Even science accepts that as a fact. Life happens only in the present. Our brain through memory "creates" the past and through imagination "constructs" the future.
Since there is no past, present or future, then how can there be memory? Memory, is a belief in time and is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system somewhere, where images, thoughts etc are retrieved.

There is a big difference between actually ‘seeing’ there is no time, to just understanding there is no time. This exploration is all about ‘seeing’, in other words, it’s all about LOOKING until recognition happens.
These are only automatic functions of the brain. So past(memory) and future(imagination-expectations) are just some thoughts, nothing else. Although understanding of it does't make the mind to stop thinking about the past or imagining future.
The brain and mind are concepts and have nothing to do with ‘seeing’ or understanding anything!

The label ‘brain’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE of a brain.
The image/colour labelled ‘brain’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of a brain.

So, there is no ‘brain’, what the actual experience is…is label + colour + thoughts ABOUT a brain.

Describe to me in precise detail what the ‘mind’ looks like and where it is located.
What is the actual experience of the ‘mind’?



Let’s begin to have a look at what actual experience is.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
And actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Cheers, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Kamil
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby Kamil » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:53 pm

Hi Kay,
Memory, is a belief in time and is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system somewhere, where images, thoughts etc are retrieved.
Yes, that's right memory i just a concept. It is impossible to locate the storage anywhere.
There is a big difference between actually ‘seeing’ there is no time, to just understanding there is no time.
Yes, this seems to be the case. I understand that there is no time, but I do not see it.
This exploration is all about ‘seeing’, in other words, it’s all about LOOKING until recognition happens.
Now I SEE that I need to learn to LOOK. Ok, so understanding is just a thought, but looking is an experience. Therefore looking is true and understanding is a concept. Isn't so?
The brain and mind are concepts and have nothing to do with ‘seeing’ or understanding anything!
WOW. This staff is good... Of course, you cannot experience neither brain, nor mind.
The image/colour labelled ‘brain’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of a brain.

So, there is no ‘brain’, what the actual experience is…is label + colour + thoughts ABOUT a brain.
Could you explain it further, please? I do not exactly get it.
Describe to me in precise detail what the ‘mind’ looks like and where it is located.
What is the actual experience of the ‘mind’?
Mind is only a word referring to thoughts. It's not located anywhere, because it only exists as a concept.
Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.
Ok, I admit that I struggle a bit here. You are saying that colour is an AE, but 'apple' is a thought. I'm looking and it seems to me that colour is a thought as well. It looks like I'm looking with thoughts. The thing is that thoughts force themselves and comment everything. That's the habit. That what we do, humans, we look at world with thinking. So, is the practice of LOOKING teaching to separate seeing from thinking?
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
I'm learning to look, Kay. There's something inside that's needs to know 'meaning' and describes everything.
I'll spend more time with this apple.


Cheers, Kamil

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5660
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:16 am

Hey Kamil,
This exploration is all about ‘seeing’, in other words, it’s all about LOOKING until recognition happens.
Now I SEE that I need to learn to LOOK. Ok, so understanding is just a thought, but looking is an experience. Therefore looking is true and understanding is a concept. Isn't so?
I am asking you to LOOK at/with actual experience because if you can’t find it in actual experience then it is just thought about actual experience.

The face value of thought is actual experience but the content of thought is the fairytale. Actual experience is everything but the content of thought, as the content of thought contains no actual experience. If the content of thought contained experience, then the word ‘hot’ would be hot.
The brain and mind are concepts and have nothing to do with ‘seeing’ or understanding anything!
WOW. This staff is good... Of course, you cannot experience neither brain, nor mind.
Exactly! :)
The image/colour labelled ‘brain’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of a brain.
So, there is no ‘brain’, what the actual experience is…is label + colour + thoughts ABOUT a brain.
Could you explain it further, please? I do not exactly get it.
We are LOOKING with actual experience (AE)…..yes?

So, when we look at the actual experience of a ‘brain’…..

The label ‘brain’ is the actual experience of a thought
The image/colour labelled as ‘brain’ is the actual experience of colour
The thoughts about a ‘brain’ are the actual experience of thought

So can a brain actually be found in a thought itself?
The image of a brain is colour, and thought labels it a brain. Can a brain actually be found in a colour?

Describe to me in precise detail what the ‘mind’ looks like and where it is located.
What is the actual experience of the ‘mind’?
Mind is only a word referring to thoughts. It's not located anywhere, because it only exists as a concept.
Exactly! Nice LOOKING. The label ‘mind’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not of a mind.
Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.
Ok, I admit that I struggle a bit here. You are saying that colour is an AE, but 'apple' is a thought. I'm looking and it seems to me that colour is a thought as well. It looks like I'm looking with thoughts. The thing is that thoughts force themselves and comment everything. That's the habit. That what we do, humans, we look at world with thinking. So, is the practice of LOOKING teaching to separate seeing from thinking?
Yes, of course the word ‘colour’ is a label/thought…but it is a thought that points to actual experience. And until you get to see what actual experience is then how else are you going to 'see'? And even after seeing....thought will automatically label colour 'colour' and still continue to divide and label colour as 'red', 'pink', 'purple' and so on. But we will get to see what colour actually is later on. For now..we stick to basics.

Okay..so an example of how thought either points to AE or to further thoughts stories about AE.

For example, the thought ‘blue sky’

The word/label ‘blue’ is the AE of thought BUT also points to the actual experience of colour.
The word/label ‘sky’ is the AE of thought but points to further thought stories and does not point to actual experience…..only the AE of thought.
Is this clear?

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
I'm learning to look, Kay. There's something inside that's needs to know 'meaning' and describes everything.
I'll spend more time with this apple.
That's good, Kamil. It may take a little time....and that is okay.

“There's something inside that's needs to know 'meaning' and describes everything” is the AE of thought and not the AE of “something that needs to know the meaning and describes everything”.

But we will be looking at thought a little later. Let’s just look at actual experience for the moment.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Kamil
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby Kamil » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:10 pm

Hello Kay,
I am asking you to LOOK at/with actual experience because if you can’t find it in actual experience then it is just thought about actual experience.

The face value of thought is actual experience but the content of thought is the fairytale. Actual experience is everything but the content of thought, as the content of thought contains no actual experience. If the content of thought contained experience, then the word ‘hot’ would be hot.
Yes, let's say I grasp it. So can I say that any content of thought is AE of thought?
Ok, the great obstacle here is that 'I' find 'myself' as the centre of all experience. I guess...
So can a brain actually be found in a thought itself?
NO, it cannot, because it's just the word. Although if 'brain' is AE of a thought and you wrote,:
If the content of thought contained experience, then the word ‘hot’ would be hot.
so it means that the content of the word doesn't contain experience, but it can be an AE? Is it a problem of a perspective? Can there be, actually, an AE of something else than mine?

I have to apologise for today. The thing is that for the last two shifts at work I was practicing LOOKING in order to find 'myself', plus today I was practising your task as well. I was pushing myself. My head is simply exhausted. I feel dull-witted. I didn't find "I", except as a thought.
The image of a brain is colour, and thought labels it a brain. Can a brain actually be found in a colour?
Of course, it cannot. It's just a colour. But it can have an AE, just as a thought can. So it means it has separate (own?) perspective?

My head feels empty at the moment...
For example, the thought ‘blue sky’

The word/label ‘blue’ is the AE of thought BUT also points to the actual experience of colour.
Yes, that's clear.
The word/label ‘sky’ is the AE of thought but points to further thought stories and does not point to actual experience…..only the AE of thought.
Is this clear?
Yes, such thing as 'sky' doesn't exist. It's again a concept. But it can be an AE of a colour as well.
Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
As I wrote earlier I've done some tests today at work. In some way it was an ordinary, but unusual experience. Barry Long once said that we have to become "simple", and it was like becoming less complicated. It makes you to spend less time in thoughts. It's like zooming back, focusing on the experience. On one hand it's quite refreshing, on the other really draining.
Although I do not know who is exhausted. When I stop writing and look I cannot find anyone who's tired, however while I've been writing I could fell it all the time.

If the feeling of fatigue is present, is it an AE? When it comes to the AE, feeling is the same as sensation?


Thank you Kay.

Drained Kamil

User avatar
Kamil
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby Kamil » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:42 pm

I'm back for a moment.

I was just taking shower practising your task. All thought content is just an AE of thoughts. It's irrelevant and not important. Even the word 'important' is just a thought, a concept and doesn't mean anything.

All there is is an experience.

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5660
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: I abandon "myself" into your hands. :)

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:58 pm

Hello Kamil,
The face value of thought is actual experience but the content of thought is the fairytale. Actual experience is everything but the content of thought, as the content of thought contains no actual experience. If the content of thought contained experience, then the word ‘hot’ would be hot.
Yes, let's say I grasp it. So can I say that any content of thought is AE of thought?
Ok, the great obstacle here is that 'I' find 'myself' as the centre of all experience. I guess...
Yes, exactly! The content of thought is more thought and thought is AE of thought!
So can a brain actually be found in a thought itself?
NO, it cannot, because it's just the word. Although if 'brain' is AE of a thought and you wrote,:
If the content of thought contained experience, then the word ‘hot’ would be hot.
so it means that the content of the word doesn't contain experience, but it can be an AE? Is it a problem of a perspective? Can there be, actually, an AE of something else than mine?
If thought contained experience and the thought ‘hot’ appeared, then the sensation labelled ‘hot’ would be contained within the thought each time the thought appeared. So now, ‘think’ the word ‘hot’. Does the sensation labelled ‘hot’ appear with it?
I have to apologise for today. The thing is that for the last two shifts at work I was practicing LOOKING in order to find 'myself', plus today I was practising your task as well. I was pushing myself. My head is simply exhausted. I feel dull-witted. I didn't find "I", except as a thought.
Wonderful that you couldn’t find an “I”…just be gentle with yourself. Recognition of no separate self happens when it happens and no amount of extra efforting will bring the goal posts any closer! Although if ‘efforting’ is happening…there is no one controlling that either!
The image of a brain is colour, and thought labels it a brain. Can a brain actually be found in a colour?
Of course, it cannot. It's just a colour. But it can have an AE, just as a thought can. So it means it has separate (own?) perspective?
How can colour have its own perspective and its own actual experience?
Firstly, that just points to separation and secondly it doesn’t even make sense. So there is no “I” that can have its own perspective and experiences but colour can choose what it becomes and what perspective it has?
The word/label ‘sky’ is the AE of thought but points to further thought stories and does not point to actual experience…..only the AE of thought.
Is this clear?
Yes, such thing as 'sky' doesn't exist. It's again a concept. But it can be an AE of a colour as well.
Since ‘sky’ is a concept then how can it possibly be an AE of colour? Colour is appearing and then a thought labels it ‘sky’.

The label ‘sky’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of the sky
The colour labelled ‘sky’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of the sky.
Can you see this?

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
As I wrote earlier I've done some tests today at work. In some way it was an ordinary, but unusual experience. Barry Long once said that we have to become "simple", and it was like becoming less complicated. It makes you to spend less time in thoughts. It's like zooming back, focusing on the experience. On one hand it's quite refreshing, on the other really draining.
You seem to want to dismiss thoughts as some sort of negative experience. Experience appears as thought as well as colour, sound, smell, taste and sensation and there is no hierarchy of experience. However, thought seems to be more prevalent but there is no separation between what experience is appearing as. It is only thought that divides experience into these categories.

What is it exactly that can spend less time in thought and more time elsewhere?

Although I do not know who is exhausted. When I stop writing and look I cannot find anyone who's tired, however while I've been writing I could fell it all the time.

If the feeling of fatigue is present, is it an AE? When it comes to the AE, feeling is the same as sensation?
What is the AE of tired/fatigue?

The labels ‘tired/fatigued’ is the AE of thought
The sensation labelled ‘tired/fatigues’ is the AE of sensation.

So what thought labels as ‘tired/fatigued’ is the appearance/experience of thought + sensation.
Is this clear?

I was just taking shower practising your task. All thought content is just an AE of thoughts. It's irrelevant and not important. Even the word 'important' is just a thought, a concept and doesn't mean anything.
All there is is an experience.
Terrific, Kamil! Nice LOOKING! To see this is great! Yes, all thought and thought content is the AE of thought, and in and of itself has no meaning.

“All there is is an experience”. This points to something having AN experience.
Can you find anyone/anything that is having AN experience?

Can you find a dividing line to where 'you' end and a thought begins?

Love, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 38 guests