What now?

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katica
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What now?

Postby katica » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:14 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
After taking a hiatus from my spiritual journey for several years, I have returned with an understanding and deepening like never before. Over the past two months I have had my mind stop many times and have seen and realized that my humanness is a projection of my own mind. There have many many days, moments etc of bliss and a sense of not needing or wanting anything and also some very painful times (emotionally) as well.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
I would like to know I am not alone on this path and that there are others out there. I have started to feel very much apart from others and not sure where to turn in the times of seeming darkness. During this times I would like very much to know I am not alone and not going crazy.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
Over the years I have been led to non-duality. It was due to great emotional pain and a teacher Rupert Spira that finally got me to experience what this really meant from his inquiring questions and my own determination to stop the suffering of the human form I thought I was.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?
11

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Re: What now?

Postby katica » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:20 pm

I have not heard back from a 'guide' yet.

For now I would like to share that I have realized with great sense of awe how my thoughts alone have created this story about my supposed self. And that the story of me is an illusion or should I say delusion. It was a relief and yet also sad to know that I alone, or my mind, has been creating this suffering for all of my 51 years.

This realization came about from 4 days of setting up vigil and watching my mind at work as it tried to pull me into deep dark stories after a broken relationship (stories that went way beyond the actual relationship. Setting up vigil, I watched the mind try to create stories, which resulted in painful emotions. By keeping a constant vigilance it was easier to stop the stories thus stopping the feeding of the painful emotions. Eventually when I was actually brushing my teeth it hit me like a hammer over the head that *I* was not what I 'thought'. I knew this from reading and logic but this time it really drove home on a whole new level.

It is a bit ironic, yet makes sense, that my biggest moments of clarity come after my biggest moments of suffering. The question now is how to continue to deepen this without waiting for more suffering?

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Re: What now?

Postby b0dhi » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:35 pm

Hey Katica

Sorry for the delay in responding to you, things are quite busy here.

I'd be happy to guide you if you're ok with that?

What can I call you?

Have you done much reading about what this process is about?

This is quite useful as background reading: http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Let me know when you are ready to begin.

Regards

Bodhi
Bodhi

Nothingness dances to an unhearable song

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Re: What now?

Postby katica » Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:48 pm

Hi Bodhi, thank you for your response! And I totally get the delay. It's holiday season after all. :) I would love to have you be my guide. You can call me Kathy.

I have read the link you posted and the site and some of the book. I am very ready except there is one caveat. I believe it is suggest to put all other things aside until after the process. I have scheduled a trip to the Byron Katie New Year's Cleanse. Shall I wait until after that? I am ok waiting or starting now but will defer to your suggestion.

Thanks so much for your help!

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Re: What now?

Postby b0dhi » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:37 am

Hey Kathy

Great to hear from you and thank you for your understanding regarding the delay.

In regards to your scheduled opportunity with the cleanse, I feel that we can get started on the guidance and the process will work itself out as we go along. I'll be interested in knowing how the new years session goes for you :) When you feel like you need to put the brakes on our conversation to focus on this you just need to let me know. However, once you start looking at the illusion of self in depth, you'll probably need to gather some momentum and I'll encourage you to stay on course.

I'm sure it will all pan out as we move forwards.

I take it we have an agreement there :)

It will be useful for you to learn to use the quote function, like the quoted text below.

The link is here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
There's a video explanation here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
I have read the link you posted and the site and some of the book.
That's great! So you know what this process entails. I'm very curious to hear directly what your expectations are, so let's begin there.

What do you expect is going to happen? What do you think this process is going to be like, and what are you hoping to get out of it?

How are you going to feel? How are you going to be changed by it?

Be as detailed as possible, let it all hang out! Have some fun with this, let me have all the juicy stories about what you feel this is going to do for you.

I look forward to your response.

Warm regards

Bodhi
Bodhi

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Re: What now?

Postby katica » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:18 am

In regards to your scheduled opportunity with the cleanse, I feel that we can get started on the guidance and the process will work itself out as we go along. I'll be interested in knowing how the new years session goes for you :) When you feel like you need to put the brakes on our conversation to focus on this you just need to let me know. However, once you start looking at the illusion of self in depth, you'll probably need to gather some momentum and I'll encourage you to stay on course.
Great! I am happy to hear this. I will keep you posted during the cleanse which starts for me on the 29th and ends on the 1st.
What do you expect is going to happen?
It is my hope that I will finally understand the great mystery....who I am and what l am doing here. Not just from concepts but experientially.
What do you think this process is going to be like, and what are you hoping to get out of it? How are you going to feel? How are you going to be changed by it?Be as detailed as possible, let it all hang out! Have some fun with this, let me have all the juicy stories about what you feel this is going to do for you.
When I was a child I wanted to understand why I was here and what the world was really about. These deep desire has not gone away and I am now 51 years old. Back then the desire was more pure. Now after years of experienced suffering, I would be lying not to say it would be nice if the suffering would not be so apparent, yet I do understand from reading the site and a bit of the books by the founders of liberation unleashed this may not be the case.

Over the years I have had for times, the dropping of my story, which was much more of a pleasant way to live life, yet it does return.

I have had other experiences such as being blissed out where the world is bold and things seem to pop with brilliance, yet I am not sure that is it either. It would also be nice to be in a perfect state of presence at all times as I have experienced at times, yet again I am not sure I really expect that, at least not at first.

Let's say I hope that I will be able to understand who I am, what this great mystery called life if, my role in it, and how I am live a full life with the least about of suffering possible.

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Re: What now?

Postby b0dhi » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:29 am

Hi Kathy

Great work with the quote function, you've nailed it!!

Thanks for clarifying your expectations. The important thing to note is that the expectations can get in the way of seeing the truth as it is. We become so used to looking at our expectations that we lose the ability to look outside of them :)

I'm very happy that you are clear with what you expect.
It is my hope that I will finally understand the great mystery....who I am and what l am doing here. Not just from concepts but experientially.
We will be looking more at what you are not rather than what you are ;) Your differentiation at this early stage between concepts and experience is encouraging.
I would be lying not to say it would be nice if the suffering would not be so apparent, yet I do understand from reading the site and a bit of the books by the founders of liberation unleashed this may not be the case.
Maybe a new perspective of suffering will emerge? Suffering may be seen in a new light as opposed to suffering ending altogether. We are not expecting life itself to change, since it will carry on doing its thing regardless. However you may notice a new way of "participating" in suffering. We don't know this, only you will and only once done.
I have had other experiences such as being blissed out where the world is bold and things seem to pop with brilliance, yet I am not sure that is it either. It would also be nice to be in a perfect state of presence at all times as I have experienced at times, yet again I am not sure I really expect that, at least not at first.
We will not be looking for experiences of bliss/ecstasy/oneness/presence here. In fact, seeking out these experiences may come in the way of actually looking at what is. We are interested in the truth, not in any "state of being". More often than not the shift is a change of perspective unaccompanied by any "states" or "experiences". Sometimes the change is so subtle that it can go by unnoticed.

So basically we are seeking truth - directly realised - and not some other experience.
Let's say I hope that I will be able to understand who I am, what this great mystery called life if, my role in it, and how I am live a full life with the least about of suffering possible.
Some of this will be outside the scope of what we are going to pursue. What we will be focusing on is seeing through the concepts or ideas that you are holding about yourself to see what the truth of yourself is. The objective is that you see this firsthand, for yourself, devoid of any "ideas" of what it is. The other questions you have may very well be resolved through your resolute search within this process - again, this is for you to discover and uncover.

Do please let me know that this is all clear and we are on the same page going forward.



There is one thing I do wish to clarify and that is the references you have made to suffering.

Is this a usual, expected level of human suffering, or in your opinion is there a much larger amount of suffering in your life than for someone else of your age and background?

Without wishing that you divulge any personal details,I am interested to know if there is residual damage - emotional or otherwise - that has been caused by this suffering. For instance, is there a lot of fear of looking within due to any emotional residue of suffering? Are there blockages that may come up to the surface and hinder this process? Have you had to get any other help with this suffering?

I'd like us to tackle this first as it will effect the next couple of steps for your process - so you and I can be clear on the obstacles that may come up in your "seeing clearly". It is better to deal with these issues now, before the intense looking begins.

I hope this is all ok and you are willing and able to continue? I look forward to your answers.

Best wishes.

Bodhi
Bodhi

Nothingness dances to an unhearable song

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katica
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Re: What now?

Postby katica » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:18 am

Dear Bodhi,

I hope you enjoyed the holiday. I have just got back online after the New Year Cleanse with Byron Katie.
Do please let me know that this is all clear and we are on the same page going forward.
Yes, this is all very clear thanks!


s this a usual, expected level of human suffering, or in your opinion is there a much larger amount of suffering in your life than for someone else of your age and background?

Without wishing that you divulge any personal details,I am interested to know if there is residual damage - emotional or otherwise - that has been caused by this suffering. For instance, is there a lot of fear of looking within due to any emotional residue of suffering? Are there blockages that may come up to the surface and hinder this process? Have you had to get any other help with this suffering?
Don't worry about me in this regard. I have worked through my issues. :)
I hope this is all ok and you are willing and able to continue? I look forward to your answers.
Yes i am very willing to continues (and look forward to it!).

Thanks so much!

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Re: What now?

Postby katica » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:25 am

Hi Bodhi

It may be worth mentioning some realizations that have becoming more clear for me over the past few days.

- One is actually from the Byron Katie School I was in many years ago. I recalled the results from an exercise we did (a pretty far out one) and I realized that I did not need to do anything special to get my needs met I did not even need to speak to get them met. This memory and my current experiences made me realize how much life just happens and adding the *I* did this or that to make it happen may just be my ego, or an illusion that I did something.

= It seems pretty clear that thoughts come and go, floating in at anytime.They can't be controlled but what is important is the belief about them when they pass.

= That the world is made up up images, we tend to overlay past experiences via thought onto the present. We also create future thoughts based on past thought images.

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Re: What now?

Postby b0dhi » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:31 pm

Hi Kathy

Happy New Year!! My holidays were great, thank you for asking.

Great to hear that you got value from the cleanse - deep work does wonders :)

Thank you for your responses, and clarifying your position. You seem to have a great sense of the "self" illusion.

So tell me what comes up when I say that there is no self, there is no Kathy. You have never existed, it has all been a fiction.

You don't exist now, nor will you ever exist in the future. Kathy is just a story, a collection of fables.

Life is just happening, without the need for a Kathy.

There is no you.

Tell me how this feels, what comes up when you internalise this. Please look deeply and then share in detail.

Warm regards

Bodhi
Bodhi

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Re: What now?

Postby katica » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:53 am

Hi Bodhi,

Sorry for the delayed response. I have computer issues so was not able to get back to you as I planned to yesterday.
So tell me what comes up when I say that there is no self, there is no Kathy. You have never existed, it has all been a fiction.

You don't exist now, nor will you ever exist in the future. Kathy is just a story, a collection of fables.

Life is just happening, without the need for a Kathy.

There is no you.

Tell me how this feels, what comes up when you internalise this. Please look deeply and then share in detail.
I totally get the part where I am a collection of stories. This is something that came to me about a month ago. I had a huge realization after a personal issue and processing it that I was NOT who I thought I was. That I had bought into a bunch of stories and none of them were real, and I had been harsh on myself all these years. It was a freeing experience. While i have at times fallen back into believing the stories temporarily, I don't' think I can every buy into them again completely.

About never existing....about 5 weeks ago I was watching a Rupert Spira video that explained time and it was my first realization.....I 'got' how time does not really exist There is truly only one moment...now. I realized that if there was only now then I was never born and never can die. I also really got that perhaps my past never existed either thus all the stories I have been carrying around my not have truly happened. It was mindblowing and I was incredibly present for quite some time after that.

Since then I have been going in and out believing this and being able to access this. Sometimes I believe what you say is true but and what I struggle with is the life is happening without me. Though that said, as I mentioned in my last post the experience I had after the excercise we did in The School of The Work many years ago has been coming back to me and I recall quite clearly that I had my needs taken care of without saying a word. I thought perhaps *I* was projecting my needs to the world, but perhaps, perhaps, life was just happening as it should.

Yesterday I watched life. I spent as much time in my normal life noticing that perhaps life was indeed just happening and I was not the doer. It was very, very freeing. I felt really relaxed and happy. Then very energized by the end of the day instead of feeling exhausted from work.

Today I spent some time noticing my thoughts vs actions. Which comes first? Many times I moved before I thought. I saw that clearly. Sometimes I was not clear on this.

So that was a long response to your question. And I may not have answered it directly. I feel it is possible. It is a bit freaky, but I am open to it due to the above experiences. I am confused on why I am hear and what this form is (yes, images perhaps but why?).

Sometimes I feel so close to 'getting it' but still missing something here....so I will let you take me to the next step!

Thanks so much Bodhi! Looking forward to hearing back.

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Re: What now?

Postby b0dhi » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:59 pm

Hi Kathy

Good response, thank you for coming back so detailed.
Yesterday I watched life. I spent as much time in my normal life noticing that perhaps life was indeed just happening and I was not the doer. It was very, very freeing. I felt really relaxed and happy. Then very energized by the end of the day instead of feeling exhausted from work.
Well life is happening, of that we can both agree. There is no doubt about that. What about the doer? If there is a doer then we should be able to find her, right?

So where is this doer, this Kathy? How does she present herself? What proof do we have that there is a "you" and that this you has an agency in life?

Look for this "Kathy", what is she? How can we know that this is the Kathy? How can we know that this Kathy is the doer?

Chat soon Kathy :)

Bodhi
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Re: What now?

Postby katica » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:13 am

What about the doer? If there is a doer then we should be able to find her, right?
This makes me crazy. :) Sometimes I can see 'she' is a series of images. In the moment she is perhaps experience? I have even at times in my work thought, felt, that I am just the vehicle that 'God' or "universe' is using to do my work. In my work, little ego has entered and when I get out of my way thing work out better.

What about other illusions that enter in people form? Do we have any say on who show up when? Energetically?

So where is this doer, this Kathy? How does she present herself? What proof do we have that there is a "you" and that this you has an agency in life? Look for this "Kathy", what is she? How can we know that this is the Kathy? How can we know that this Kathy is the doer?
When I go to the where is my proof "I" exist, I can go to the place where I can find no one. But I can also go back to finding 'me'. This body, mind, etc.

I really want to 'see' this. There is some fear that has come up at least once today, it was momentary but it had my heart racing.

Can you help me see this part of doing? And what the purpose of the illusion that I am doing but am not? It makes me think I could then just sit here and never leave the chair and all would be well. But that feels wrong What makes me decide to go to the office daily or not? What makes me decide to ride a bike in the the morning or sleep? Pet my dog or not? Have friends or not? Feel things or not?

Getting confused!

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Re: What now?

Postby b0dhi » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:57 am

Hey Kathy

This is a quick response as I intend to write a bit more tomorrow. For now I needed to offer some encouragement.

Confusion arises - welcome it. Living in the known has not ended your search, hence the uncertainty is your ally. It will give you the answer you need. Embrace the unknown, embrace the fear. Allow it in and ask what it is protecting.

Through the confusion and fear you will gain clarity. Do not let them deter you, they are your staunch assistants on this search.

Where is Kathy? How do you know that she is?

Stay with this and allow the confusion and fear their say.

Warmest regards

Bodhi
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Re: What now?

Postby b0dhi » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:54 pm

Hi Kathy

Hope you are doing well. Do let me know how you are getting on.

I wanted to mention the fear and confusion again. I am glad you are bringing them up as you go along. If fear and resistance show up and start to divert our search, then we need to deal with them. So do let me know whenever this occurs.

Confusion is good - expect to be confused and out of the comfort of the "known". When clarity comes it will allay this confusion.

Let us continue this search for Kathy.
When I go to the where is my proof "I" exist, I can go to the place where I can find no one. But I can also go back to finding 'me'. This body, mind, etc.
When you look for a me, you mention it is presenting itself as this mind, this body.

So let's turn our search there for now. Starting with the mind.

Where is this mind? Can it be found?

I can understand that you can find a thought. But can you actually find a mind? Other that the fact that we talk about a mind, does this mind actually exist as something real which you can find?

Or is it that the mind is a concept, an idea?

Look for Kathy's mind and what do you see? Thoughts? More thoughts saying that this is Kathy's mind?

Beside thoughts, can you find this mind?

Sit with this and tell me what shows up. I look forward to hearing from you.

Warm regards

Bodhi
Bodhi

Nothingness dances to an unhearable song


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