me, myself & I

[o_nil]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
After talking about "enlightenment" with a friend, I started wondering whether there was something to it. I read quite a few books on the matter and while the vast majority seemed quite phony, a few seemed legit.
One day I stumbled upon liberationunleashed.com while browsing the internet. Since then, I have tried to "look" for myself and see whether there was an "I". It's been some time now and although at times I feel it sort of makes sense that this illusion of "I" can be seen through, I am still at the gate. So here I am!

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I'm looking for a person that has seen through the illusion in hope that s/he can guide me so I can see for myself. I don't want to be convinced that there is no "I", I want to see it for a fact, an irrefutable one.
I don't expect blissfulness or anything like that.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I've tried meditation for a while and didn't find it helpful; I've read Ramana and Nisargadatta; I've also read Jed McKenna's trilogy and seen UG Krishnamurti's videos. Their words are the ones that resonate the most with me.
And then, I've tried to look at thoughts, sensation and so on, like other people on the forum.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 9

[Florisness]

Hi o_nil, welcome to Liberation Unleashed:) How can I call you?

If you like, it could guide you. If you agree on that, than there are some guidelines:

- Put spiritual books, and videos aside. Doing meditation is fine.
- Try posting every day, in this way there will be a momentum.
- Be 100% honest.
- What we do here is simple, we look in our experience. Please read: http://liberationunleashed.com/resource ... xperience/ This part is very important.
- I would ask questions, you will look deeply and honestly and respond.
- Please learn to use the quote function; http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

This guiding process is just to make you realize that there is not at self. This isn't anything spectacular/flashy at all, life just goes on. We won't be needing those big brains of ours much during our talk, we'll just take it simple and easy:)

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

Floris

[o_nil]

Hi Floris,

Thanks for being my guide. You can call me whatever you please, but Nil or even "You" would work :-)

- Put spiritual books, and videos aside. Doing meditation is fine.

No books, no videos on the subject. I can't seem to get anything out of them anyways.

- Try posting every day, in this way there will be a momentum.

Will do.

- What we do here is simple, we look in our experience. Please read: http://liberationunleashed.com/resource ... xperience/ This part is very important.

Direct experience only. Got it. Fine by me: it's the only one thing I can test for sure.

- Be 100% honest.

I'll do my best.

- I would ask questions, you will look deeply and honestly and respond.

Fair enough!

- Please learn to use the quote function; viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Check!

This guiding process is just to make you realize that there is not at self. This isn't anything spectacular/flashy at all, life just goes on. We won't be needing those big brains of ours much during our talk, we'll just take it simple and easy:)

Sounds good :-) I know from experience that big brains tend to generate more BS than anything else...

I'm ready to do this thing.

[Florisness]

I'll go with Nil than :)

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I'm ready to do this thing.

Great!

So what is the 'I' for you? Please write what appears true for you, not what you have read.
- Does I think?
- Does it move?
- Does it see/hear/feel?
- Is it located in the body? Or perhaps it's the body?
- Is it living life?
- Did it came to LU to get liberated?

Look forward hearing from you,
Floris

[o_nil]

Hey Floris,

Here goes nothing:

Please write what appears true for you, not what you have read.

I feel that is an important point. While trying to answer those questions, my mind would think something like "But the answer should be there is no 'I'". But in all honesty, I still "see" an 'I', a 'myself'.
I'll go ahead and try my best to ignore what my mind says I should be thinking and see what appears true to me regardless of what I've read.

So what is the 'I' for you?

Truth is I don't really know but I'll give it a try:
'I' is pretty much the story of me. It has a history backed up by memories. 'I' is a biography of some kind. 'I' perceives.

Does I think?

It seems like it does... "I should be working", "I don't feel like getting out today", etc... 'I' is the subject, it adds material to its history.
On the other hand, sometimes thoughts arise without an 'I': "it's windy outside", "it's cozy in here". Still, these thoughts without an 'I' do seem to stem from the 'I'. *I* am noticing this stuff: 'I' perceives.

Does it move?

With respect to my body, 'I' doesn't move. It sticks with sensations of my body. So my body moves from one place to another but 'I' stays within.

Does it see/hear/feel?

Well, sure... when 'I' notices. For example, the fridge would come on and make some sound, but 'I' doesn't hear it until it notices "oh the fridge is on, I can hear it". Yet, the sound was always here... or was it? How could I know for sure if I don't perceive it?

Is it located in the body? Or perhaps it's the body?

I'm not sure... If I had to give an answer, I would say 'I' is located in the body and it's in fact probably the brain.

Is it living life?

It would seem so. When I die I wouldn't be living life. Now if I'm brain dead and my heart's still beating, would I be alive? ... Darn I don't know.

Did it came to LU to get liberated?

Well yeah, 'I' made the decision, right? That is if 'I' has free will, which it seems it has. Now, my personal belief is there is no free will, but that's what it is: a belief. That's what I've read and that's what makes sense to me. BUT I don't see it.
So heck I don't really know.

If you need to, please don't hold back and slap me!

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

Yes, great, please continue your honest inquiry!

If you need to, please don't hold back and slap me!

haha, yes I'll slap you whenever I see an opening.

Will just go over some points one by one, slowly and simply. Let's start with the belief that I is doing feeling/seeing/hearing, etc.

Well, sure... when 'I' notices. For example, the fridge would come on and make some sound, but 'I' doesn't hear it until it notices "oh the fridge is on, I can hear it". Yet, the sound was always here... or was it? How could I know for sure if I don't perceive it?

So let's explore this.

Please take some time for this inquiry. Sit down and look at a lamp, flower, whatever. ponder the following questions regarding your experience of seeing. (report from experience)
- In seeing, is there anything else than seeing?
- Can you find something that is doing the seeing? i.e. an I, seer, something like this?
- Is any effort made for seeing to be here?
- can you find a difference between seeing and what is seen?
- After having answered these above questions, what do you think of the following statement: 'I see a laptop'?

Look forward to your reply,
F

[o_nil]

Hi Floris,

Sorry for the delay: weather caused some blackouts in the region.
But now internet is finally back on, so back to work!

In seeing, is there anything else than seeing?

No, there is nothing else than seeing within seeing. There are other things going on besides seeing like hearing, thinking and so forth, but none of it takes place in seeing.

Can you find something that is doing the seeing? i.e. an I, seer, something like this?

It appears as if I can choose what I'm watching, and watching occurs within seeing. But watching is paying attention to what is being seen. And how can something be seen without I seeing it? ...

Is any effort made for seeing to be here?

No effort at all for seeing. The only effort I can find is by interpreting what is being seen: this is a book, this is a screen, etc... all of it appears in thought, though.

Can you find a difference between seeing and what is seen?

I find a distinction between seeing and what I think is being seen by me. Again, I feel 'I' needs to be here to be able to see and say "I see this and that".

After having answered these above questions, what do you think of the following statement: 'I see a laptop'?

Not much... I see a sentence that reads 'I see a laptop'... and I see a screen...
Probably not what you are trying to point out!

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

It appears as if I can choose what I'm watching, and watching occurs within seeing. But watching is paying attention to what is being seen. And how can something be seen without I seeing it? ...

Can you find a difference between watching/attention and seeing (in the experience of seeing)?
Also, again you mention 'without I seeing it', so if that statement is true there is:
1. Something doing the seeing.
2. Seeing.
3. Something that is seen (the 'it').
Which of these 3 things can you find in your actual experience?
If 1. seems vague, do this; look at something, like a lamp and think at the statement you made: 'without I seeing it', if that's true, there must be something here, which is doing the seeing (an I, seer, whatever), something which is seeing the lamp. What is that which is doing the seeing, that which is seeing the lamp? Can you find it?

I find a distinction between seeing and what I think is being seen by me. Again, I feel 'I' needs to be here to be able to see and say "I see this and that".

No effort at all for seeing. The only effort I can find is by interpreting what is being seen: this is a book, this is a screen, etc... all of it appears in thought, though.

Yes correct, a lot of thoughts about seeing come up while exploring this stuff. But for now please try staying just with seeing.

Please keep stating what seems true for you, you're doing great! :)

All the best,
Floris

[o_nil]

Hi Floris,

I'd like first to thank you again for taking the time to guide me!
Okay, back to business:

But for now please try staying just with seeing.

I have a bad habit of sometimes overthinking. I need to keep it simple. Seeing only it is!

Can you find a difference between watching/attention and seeing (in the experience of seeing)?

Seeing is an experience. Watching/attention doesn't really exist in itself in seeing. There is no attention in seeing. If anything, attention is something else. Seeing's just seeing.

Also, again you mention 'without I seeing it', so if that statement is true there is:
1. Something doing the seeing.
2. Seeing.
3. Something that is seen (the 'it').
Which of these 3 things can you find in your actual experience?

Point 2: There is seeing, no doubt about it.

If 1. seems vague, do this; look at something, like a lamp and think at the statement you made: 'without I seeing it', if that's true, there must be something here, which is doing the seeing (an I, seer, whatever), something which is seeing the lamp. What is that which is doing the seeing, that which is seeing the lamp? Can you find it?

If I stick to seeing only, I can't find that which is seeing the lamp. And then, the lamp's there in the seeing so the 'it' of point 3 exists. Now for point 1.... I don't see a seer in seeing, so no seer in actual experience. But I still feel that point 3 can't be without point 1. Something not necessarily within seeing must be doing the witnessing... or the watching. Which leads back to your first question: can I find a difference between watching/attention and seeing. And the answer is yes: seeing is seeing. Witnessing is something else but not within seeing...

Thanks,
Nil

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

I'd like first to thank you again for taking the time to guide me!

You're very welcome!

Seeing is an experience. Watching/attention doesn't really exist in itself in seeing. There is no attention in seeing. If anything, attention is something else. Seeing's just seeing.

hmm in my experience, when attention is on seeing, there is no difference to be found between seeing and attention, although the seeing seems to be enhanced (kind of) at that spot. Does that ring true?

Point 2: There is seeing, no doubt about it.

Yes, agreed

If I stick to seeing only, I can't find that which is seeing the lamp. And then, the lamp's there in the seeing so the 'it' of point 3 exists. Now for point 1.... I don't see a seer in seeing, so no seer in actual experience. But I still feel that point 3 can't be without point 1. Something not necessarily within seeing must be doing the witnessing... or the watching. Which leads back to your first question: can I find a difference between watching/attention and seeing. And the answer is yes: seeing is seeing. Witnessing is something else but not within seeing...

Yes good noticing. When there seems to be that which is seen (object), there also seems to be that which is seeing (subject). It's a yin yang thing. As you said, 'there is seeing, no doubt about it', but can we find a difference between what is seen, and seeing? Could it be the same thing?

Something to ponder: So what exactly is seeing made of? The only thing that tells me there is seeing is the (presence of) color, if no color, then no seeing, if color is present, I call that seeing! Is that correct? If that's correct, then where does seeing turn into what is seen? Is that which is seen not made out of just color? Is that which is seen not made of seeing?

So what are your thoughts on all this bafflegab?

Keep it simple!

Floris

[o_nil]

Hey Floris,

hmm in my experience, when attention is on seeing, there is no difference to be found between seeing and attention, although the seeing seems to be enhanced (kind of) at that spot. Does that ring true?

I would agree with the seeing being kind of enhanced by attention, but I can't say that they are one and the same. I mean, I feel seeing is still happening without giving it attention.

Can we find a difference between what is seen, and seeing? Could it be the same thing?

In seeing, nothing shows otherwise... but still... got to have something to recognize what's seen, or even be aware of the experience of seeing...

So what exactly is seeing made of? The only thing that tells me there is seeing is the (presence of) color, if no color, then no seeing, if color is present, I call that seeing! Is that correct?

Yep, totally correct. I'm with you.

If that's correct, then where does seeing turn into what is seen? Is that which is seen not made out of just color? Is that which is seen not made of seeing?

So what are your thoughts on all this bafflegab?

This is confusing... I'm gonna take some time to investigate (as simply as I can) and I'll get back to you on that one...

Talk to you later this afternoon,
Nil

[o_nil]

Hi Floris,

Can we find a difference between what is seen, and seeing? Could it be the same thing?

Yup, looks like it's the same thing indeed. What's being seen is the seeing itself. I mean it sort of make sense especially when I'm not being judgemental over what I'm seeing.

I think I need to ponder that some more...

Thanks,
Nil

[Florisness]

Yup, looks like it's the same thing indeed. What's being seen is the seeing itself. I mean it sort of make sense especially when I'm not being judgemental over what I'm seeing.

I think I need to ponder that some more...

Perhaps it are just thoughts that turn seeing into what is seen? Just labels that slice seeing into elements?

So to get back to an earlier question: What do you think of the statement 'I see a laptop', is it accurate?

Floris

[o_nil]

Hey Floris,

So to get back to an earlier question: What do you think of the statement 'I see a laptop', is it accurate?

I think I see your point: "I see a laptop" should be in fact "I see shapes and colors that are recognized as a laptop". But the recognition isn't part of the seeing itself. Again, seeing is just seeing. But it seems to me that it is virtually impossible to see without having that overlay of labels. Like for instance, when seeing a lamp, there is the knowledge that that is a lamp. That knowledge isn't within the experience of seeing but it is still perceived... by 'I'!

Thanks for reading my sorta nonsense!
Nil

[Florisness]

Hi Nil,

I see shapes and colors that are recognized as a laptop

Yes that is more accurate. BUT, how about that 'I' that sees shapes and colors, is that true? Can you find something performing the function of seeing shapes and colors, or can you just find shapes and colors?

Like for instance, when seeing a lamp, there is the knowledge that that is a lamp.

Yes and this part is usefull, this way we know the function of something, if it's a treat, etc. But the labeling itself isn't necessary at al, it doesn't really add anything.

If you answered that, let's look into hearing too. Listen to whatever sounds are present and report from experience.
- can you find something doing hearing? That is an I, hearer, ears?
- Can you find a line where a hearer stops and hearing begins?
- can you find a difference between hearing and what is heard? Or do you find just hearing/sounds as one thing?
- What do you think of the statement 'I hear a car', is that accurate?

Floris