Tim

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Mohrtim
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Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:06 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
Both Eckhard Tolle and David R. Hawkins, which I read about 6 years ago, referred to the experience of not being able to "be with one self anymore". The resonance with those statements has increase over time up to the present point of being convinced that "myself" is not only not desirable any more but actually at the very least a burden. I'm 200 days into The Course of Miracles, which every single day was a mental struggle, because my mind doesn't seem to accept anything "new". The homework at this date is to practice that "I" is not what I thought. I think my Utube history recommended a Salvatore Poe video. His proposal to the end of seeking hit home with me. Utube than recommended Liberty Unleashed. Knowing the complexity of my mind, I have been reading the publication of these three different "source" parallel to each other, reading the "same" thing! After 10 years of intensive searching and numerous Insights I'm reading to go the final step!

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
For years I have be living in 2 different experiences. First my old regular self, being restricted to old information. Secondary and with effort, a parallel reality where I would "soften" my mind and with that my perception and resulting action would be totally different than the "regular" seeing the world. Up to now, the challenge is, that I have to bring up conscious effort, to stay on the "new way" to see things, if not I would automatically "be" my old self. I'm hoping to come to the final "recognition" of "Truth".

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
About ten years ago I had two parallel live situations indicating the necessity for drastic change. First intensive fear about my family and live in general, which i could only control with conscious effort on then"good" days and be "victim" on the bad days, brought me to the practice of meditation. Becoming a Silva Ultra Mind coach, with plenty of meditation students, gave my the experience of the power of the mind. Numerous meditation retreats over the years, facilitate growing insights into life, but haven't resulted in the "final" understanding. Secondly, being a Rancher one of my horses "encouraged" me to become a Horsewhisperer. Learned all about Nonverbal communication and Energyexchange. Took me a while to get to understand that these two aspects would merge!

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? 11

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:02 pm

Hi Tim and welcome to the LU forum.
I'm Sandra and I'm going to be your guide, if that's ok with you.
Both Eckhard Tolle and David R. Hawkins, which I read about 6 years ago, referred to the experience of not being able to "be with one self anymore". The resonance with those statements has increase over time up to the present point of being convinced that "myself" is not only not desirable any more but actually at the very least a burden.
So you're expecting to get rid of yourself? How will that happen if you discover that the "myself" is an illusion, only a concept, an imaginary entity, like Santa Claus? Is it possible to get rid of what is not real?
I'm 200 days into The Course of Miracles, which every single day was a mental struggle, because my mind doesn't seem to accept anything "new".
It would be best if - for the length of this conversation - you would stop reading The Course of Miracles. If you love reading try to read a good fiction book. The The Course of Miracles will still be there if you have the pull to get back to it after this inquiry.

Oh, and this is not about accepting anything new. It's more about accepting the now as it already is.
Knowing the complexity of my mind, I have been reading the publication of these three different "source" parallel to each other, reading the "same" thing! After 10 years of intensive searching and numerous Insights I'm reading to go the final step!
I advise you (again!) to stop reading about this stuff for the time being. Let's say you've read everything available about traveling underwater in a submarine. Then you're invite to experience the real thing. There you go to have the real experience of traveling underwater in a submarine. It's very, very unlikely that all the reading will match the experience. Same here.
to stay on the "new way" to see things, if not I would automatically "be" my old self. I'm hoping to come to the final "recognition" of "Truth".
You seem to be in a quest to be a better self? What do you think your old self is? And where would you say this old you can be found? Hmm... and how about the present you? The one that is shifting between a old self and a new self? Is this you something that is inside the body, for example? What evidences do you find of the existence of such a self?

If you want to use the quote function, like I did above, there is a "how to do it" here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 or here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Looking forward to your reply,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:21 pm

Hello Sandra,

Thx for being my guide, very much appreciated!

Since my initial post, I have been reading the LU book. So yes, I have come to realize that I have been trying to improve the I for years. After a long journey I'm "ready" for the final recognition. I know I have to let go not only of what I know, but also what I believe. Having done that numerous times over the years, that should be doable one more time! That said, my mental/emotional system is not always in sync. They seem to be blocking each other at times. Hope you will be able to be patience with me!
So you're expecting to get rid of yourself? How will that happen if you discover that the "myself" is an illusion, only a concept, an imaginary entity, like Santa Claus? Is it possible to get rid of what is not real?
My mind goes black. I am literally the child, that has grown to e toold to believe in Santa and knows it needs and wants to let it (him)go, but doesn't know how. On the other hand, my perception has shifted multiple times over the years, so I know that the shift is possible, but don't have a real sense what it will shift to. All the previous shifts took me by surprise!! That seems to be my way to success, needing to be (but open to) being taken by surprise, because otherwise this system is very good at blocking out insights.

So I will follow you advice and suspended any other reading, since it makes perfect sense!
You seem to be in a quest to be a better self? What do you think your old self is? And where would you say this old you can be found? Hmm... and how about the present you? The one that is shifting between a old self and a new self? Is this you something that is inside the body, for example? What evidences do you find of the existence of such a self
No, there isn't a difference between old, new or present self, except maybe in the weight of the experience. The old use to be all consuming and heavy, the new one experiences life from a seeming distance and the present one is just a vague sense of an "I". So this gradual "development" opens up the next option, which is no self. So I can't find a location, nor have evidence for the existence of the self, only the changing sense of it.

Gratefully Tim

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:16 pm

Hi Tim!
Thx for being my guide, very much appreciated!
You're very welcome. Good job with the quote function!
After a long journey I'm "ready" for the final recognition.
Well... I'm not sure if this is about a "final recognition". It's more about seeing this moment as it is. Here and now. One moment at a time. "the final recognition" seems like a shattering event that will be the end of something. This is more a beginning of seeing things in a simpler, clear way.
That said, my mental/emotional system is not always in sync. They seem to be blocking each other at times. Hope you will be able to be patience with me!
Ah, don't worry about me. I've been guiding for a while and it is something that I enjoy doing. I hope you will also be able to be patient with me if needed.
My mind goes black. I am literally the child, that has grown to e toold to believe in Santa and knows it needs and wants to let it (him)go, but doesn't know how.
I understand what you're saying but it isn't possible to let go of an imaginary thing. We aren't trying to get rid of something. The goal is to see if this something is real.
On the other hand, my perception has shifted multiple times over the years
I'm not sure if your idea of what perception is is the same as mine. What do you mean by perception? Can you give me an example of a shift in perception please?
So I will follow you advice and suspended any other reading, since it makes perfect sense!
Wonderful! Thank you.
No, there isn't a difference between old, new or present self, except maybe in the weight of the experience. The old use to be all consuming and heavy, the new one experiences life from a seeming distance and the present one is just a vague sense of an "I". So this gradual "development" opens up the next option, which is no self. So I can't find a location, nor have evidence for the existence of the self, only the changing sense of it.
We are looking for a long lasting, independent, separate thing, an entity that is this I, this you, you talk about.

If this separate you exists, it needs to be present here and now, would you agree?

So, have a look to what is present here and now. You can see bits of the body, a keyboard, a screen, maybe walls, a desk, a water bottle. So here and now there is a "world" of things that can be experienced. Notice how these things don't disappear when you aren't thinking about them. You can be thinking about dinner and the wall is still present, even when you aren't thinking about it.

Now imagine that a thought pops up: "Batman is here with me."

This thought is a real experience but can the reality of the content of the thought be proved when you look to what surrounds you?

You may look all you want (by looking I mean looking with the eyes - there is no *special* way of looking, just plain looking...), in every nook and cranny, and I'm 100% sure you will not find Batman. You can think about Batman but all the thoughts about Batman bundled together aren't going to make a real entity that is Batman appear.

So, we know a cup is real and we know Batman is imaginary, because we experience the first and don't experience the second.

Try this little exercise: point with a finger to some of the things that surround you. Then point to where you think the I is. Let me know to where did you point and, if you think you find an I, let me know what makes you think you found an I - describe how is this I experienced.

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:32 pm

Hello Sandra,

Wow, u did take me by surprise!! Thx so much for that!!

So I'll start at the end of ur last response.
Try this little exercise: point with a finger to some of the things that surround you. Then point to where you think the I is. Let me know to where did you point and, if you think you find an I, let me know what makes you think you found an I - describe how is this I experienced.


So, doing the exercise mentally first, I would have pointed at my chest. Actually doing it, I ended up pointing at my throat, but my finger wanted to move up and down. Couldn't decide where to point! Than I used the same method of enquiry as I did with looking for Batman(it's only fair I would look as hard for him than I would for myself), and I couldn't find anybody, no "I". All I found was a body, which wasn't any different than the wall or the water bottle. Than I "looked" deeper into the body and only found sensations breathing, pulse and all sorts of bodily sensation. No "I" to be found!!

Thx for the Batman thought, only through applying the some method did this become clear.
I understand what you're saying but it isn't possible to let go of an imaginary thing. We aren't trying to get rid of something. The goal is to see if this something is real.
This didn't make any sense before the experiment. Now it absolutely does!!
I'm not sure if your idea of what perception is is the same as mine. What do you mean by perception? Can you give me an example of a shift in perception please?
So this experience of change of understanding/perception which I just had. Not getting it (aka mind blank) and than duh(!) now I get/see it.

Tim

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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:06 pm

Duh is a very appropriate answer indeed :)
Don't keep your very curious guide in the dark, share more! What do you mean by now I get/see it?

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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:21 pm

It is different now. Before the exercise I had a very "certain" sense of myself. Doing the exercise, unable to find myself, did something. I'm strangely ok with only finding nothing, where I thought I was supposed to be. Now I'm "allowing" this experience of "uncertainty" about myself to settle in. We cracked the belief of "I" open a bit?!? So curious, what and if there is next? Not that I need anything at the moment! Through fully enjoying the sense of being lighter. So I wouldn't say I have certainty of no self as of now, but the "Santa" belief has lost its foundation. Just came to me, I feel like the little kid, that walk in on his Dad, placing the presents underneath the Christmas tree. The kid is "shell shocked" about finding out the it was always Dad not Santa.

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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:30 pm

That's very beautiful Tim, thank you for sharing.
Enjoy the crack in the believe of I. Tomorrow we will poke at it a little more.

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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:26 am

Hello Tim, good morning.
Before the exercise I had a very "certain" sense of myself
I would like you to explore this sense of myself.
(don't think about this, have a look, use your senses)
How would you describe this sense? Is it a sensation, more than a sensation, a mix of sensations and thoughts or something else?
Is this sense always felt in the same place?
Is this sense always present or when you aren't thinking about "you" the sense isn't noticed?
Is this sense of myself a sensation + a thought (this is me) or do you found a real separate self when you explore it?
Do you expect this sense to disappear? Or the identification with this sense to disappear?

When you did the pointing, first you thought about pointing to a certain part of the body and then when you did the exercise you pointed to other part of the body. Do you believe there is a little Tim somewhere inside the body? Making the lungs breathe, the heart pump blood, controlling the digestion, thinking thoughts? Or is the body a mix of flesh, bones, etc? Would a surgeon be able to find a self somewhere in the body?

Let me know if you think I'm going too fast.
And, if fear or anxiety or frustration start to appear as a result of this inquiry (it happens a lot!), let me know too, so that we can deal with them properly.

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:46 pm

Hello Sandra,

Thanks for checking, speed of the inquiry is just right. No emotional response to report. Body sensations notably up!!
When you did the pointing, first you thought about pointing to a certain part of the body and then when you did the exercise you pointed to other part of the body. Do you believe there is a little Tim somewhere inside the body? Making the lungs breathe, the heart pump blood, controlling the digestion, thinking thoughts? Or is the body a mix of flesh, bones, etc? Would a surgeon be able to find a self somewhere in the body?
Since yesterday experience I know, I don't exist in the body. I realized that the Badman thought holds the some "reality" than the me thought. So I know for a fact that Badman is just a thought and he is not here, that would equally apply to the I thought. I couldn't tell the difference between the two thought. So that is the widening crack, that I cannot be convince any more that there is an I. Secondly from the experiment, after pointing at all of the real objects in my environment and than pointing at myself, I perceived "my" body in the same way as all the other objects. Just another object, but not a me.
How would you describe this sense? Is it a sensation, more than a sensation, a mix of sensations and thoughts or something else?
It neither a sensation nor a thought, but rather produced by the experience of these. The way I experience it up to now, is that I have a thought, that causes a sensation, emotionally or physically, which than produces a sense of "i feel like...." or "my" body feels like.... Both give me the sense of I. This sense has different grade of intensity which very from unquestionably accepting its reality to a vague sense, where I'm actually watching "my body" doing things and "I"am only witnessing it.
Is this sense always felt in the same place?
I haven't investigated that yet. Will do so!!
Is this sense of myself a sensation + a thought (this is me) or do you found a real separate self when you explore it?
Hmmm, so thought first, sensation second, which causes an increased I thought/ sense, which yes would have been experience as separate ( being unable, to look back to the "creation" of it). Now this sense can only be compared to the Badman thought experience, which takes the reality away from it.
this sense always present or when you aren't thinking about "you" the sense isn't noticed?
When I'm distracted it isn't present until there is something causing a sensation, than the sense comes "alive". So it is only present when I think about it.
Do you expect this sense to disappear? Or the identification with this sense to disappear?
Well I be identification has lessened over time. I'm not certain what to expect about my future relationship with this sense.

Tim

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:03 pm

Hello Sandra,

a follow up, after I had some time to contemplate.
Is this sense always felt in the same place?
No it isn't. It is not located in the body. It "shows up" where ever attention is placed?! Another way to say it, when (I) my awareness is "actived" , I show up. None of that answers the question about the location, but rather point to no location?

Something just came to mind. Working with Nature in particular with horse for many years, have made me "empathic". So it happens that I might feel more of a person/animal than myself to such degree, that I might not have a sense of I anymore, yet I still have a sense of self, which is not located in me!

Hope that is ok, for me to "just" write what come to mind? Gives me the opportunity to be "honest", cause u would generally hold back, on the other hand it of course activates what "I know" which might be counterproductive.

I have been without a guide for a number of years, so hadn't had much chance to "bounce" something of somebody. So I'm very grateful for ur guidance, but I want to be careful to not take this opportunity the "wrong" way.

Tim

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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:57 pm

Hi Tim!

Please share what you feel has to be shared, that's okay, there aren't right or wrong answers here and I'm not judging you in any way, on the contrary. This is about you and about your experience, the more you explore, the more you write, the better. Writing is a good way to put thoughts in plain view, so that they can be noticed and questioned. My role is to check if something seems unclear and to question the believes that are in the way of clarity and any form of identification that pops up. You're doing very well!
So it happens that I might feel more of a person/animal than myself to such degree, that I might not have a sense of I anymore, yet I still have a sense of self, which is not located in me!
I think I understand what you are saying here but I'm not sure if I do. Aren't "sense of I" and "sense of self" the same in different words? How can you not have a sense of I anymore and still have a sense of self? Is there a difference between I and self?

When you write "which is not located in me!", what is this me?
Another way to say it, when (I) my awareness is "actived" , I show up. None of that answers the question about the location, but rather point to no location?
What do you mean with "when (I) my awareness is "actived" , I show up"? What shows up exactly?

What do you think awareness is?

And why is this awareness "my awareness"? Is awareness something that can be owned - which implies the existence of something that owns it? Is awareness personal?

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:29 pm

Hello Sandra,

first off, thx for ur guidance. The way u ask, r question that I wouldn't be able
to ask of myself. With that they r priceless, since otherwise not accessible to me. Secondly I am relieved u r ok with me writing whatever comes up, cause since the start of our inquiry there is lots happening to write about!!

So I'll share first where I have come to since yesterday before I refer directly to ur question, since they kind of over lap.

So the sense of I and sense of self (since of today I would call it self anymore) r not the same, not only not different by degree, but two different "things". So the experience of I is a "natural" result of experiencing. So something happens, and the experience of that "creates" an I. Than with the "I" one experiences. So any emotion, sensation, thought, any experience causes more I. With that I it's "almost" impossible to track back the beginning of this self reaffirming cycle. So with that the I is an illusion, which unfortunately experiences it's self through experiences! The way it come to me is, that this is just like the Phantom Limb Syndrome. Here the arm is missing, yet the brain (from memory) hasn't accepted the missing part. The brain causes the pain, which is a reality for the patient. (The missing limb is the I. It is not there, yet it causes sesnsation, that r first experienced as real, but the eyes don't see that limb, that hurts, so the patient can accept, that the arm isn't there, yet it hurts. So the I is an illusion, which causes sensation (to reastablishing itself over and over), yet the "I" is the wrong tool to look at it self to figure out itself doesn't exist.

So to cure Phantom Limb a patient uses the mirror method. Using a mirror the brain gets to "see" the body as whole again and rewires the faulty connections.

Similar in our case. By looking we get to "see" something that is different than the believe.

So, as long as a person experiences life, the I is the natural response to this action. So what I called the sense of self yesterday, I now know to be awareness. What I didn't get before is, that those "special" moments were/r free from I/myself and me. So they r not an experience but rather a knowing participation (there r no right words here!!).

So here I'm knowing myself to be a "missing limb"?!? Wow!!!

So the question, if I expect to get ride of me or what relationship I would have with this I, being a nonexistent limb, can sure be perceived from a new view point!

[code]And why is this awareness "my awareness"? Is awareness something that can be owned - which implies the existence of something that owns it? Is awareness personal[/code]

So cannot be mine, no and no

[quote]What do you think awareness is? [/quote]

"Something" prior to experience and "before" I. No, not prior, something the "i" come "out from". It's like the natural response to living (which awareness is/gives the potential to be alive) r experiences which cause this I (which feels itself as separate), than this I kidnaps a part the potantial of Awarness and does it's illusionary reality thing. Just like the Phantom Limb, not by its own doing (Nothing/nobody there), but rather by......? Hmmmm?

Tim

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:13 am

Hello Sandra,

I'm very grateful for the LU forum and ur last post, that writing lots is ok. U r absolutely right, writing IT down is so different than just thinking it. I'm not a "writer" and I had great resistance to LU when I first learned to we were going to communicate this way!! Good thing I know my resistance factor and am I use to push into it rather than give into it.

Code: Select all

knowing participation
Wow, now I'm quoting myself, how weird is that? No it isn't participating. It's more a knowing that feel like recognition. No I sense, if at all a we sense. But not we like you and me, but rather beyond individuality. That person/being/animal makes perfect sense. "I" get it, r compationate with the situation, can completely get their perception. All of this doesn't really explain it well. It is so different than the "ordinary" experience where there is an "I" present.

Another observation, when I use the word I the describe something that I am becoming aware of, I use it with the background belief, that I am the Missing Limb!! (Which doesn't exist!!) Wow, so many Is for something that is only the sense of a "faulty" wiring of the brain of this organic computer.

So now I have found out, that I am actually just a thought (perceived as a real entity through sensations, like pain and or joy or any experience of the senses), just like the thought Badman is here (cause realistically depending on ones mental health status, one could be convinced that Badman/or any other entity is/r really here). Also the Phantom Limb Pain scenario points to me really as being the result of a faulty wiring of the brain.

So now I Stand confronted with the realization that I'm only a perceived illusion caused by brain that "sees" something that isn't there, and let's me feel it!!

Hmmm, wow so now I know that I'm not what I thought I am!?!? And that I'm not at all?!?

Now I am (me the missing limb) really curious what I am, if anything at all. What would anything at all be like?

So I hope, u can read between the lines, that I take all of this with a great deal of humour, cause really, this is all very funny!! (Once one has the right distance)

Tim

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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:25 pm

Hi Tim, good morning!

I've read both your posts and the feeling I've got is that you are trying to make sense of what is going on, trying to explain what is the I, why there is a I, why there isn't an I etc, etc.

Hmm... I would prefer that instead of thinking, thinking, thinking, you would observe thoughts for a while and describe what you see going on.

Here are some questions that may help in this observation:

Where are thoughts coming from, to where are they going?

Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?

Is it possible to know which thought will pop up next, before the thought pops up?

Do you have control over thoughts?

What do you see thinking thoughts?

Can a thought think?

What can a thought do?

Take care,
S


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