domenico, this is your thread

[neeeel]

Hi domenico. If you are still interested in taking a look, post here
thanks

[domenico]

Neeel said:

Can you reply to my thread, post a bit about what your expectations are for this process, what you think will happen.
Also, tell me in your own words, what the self is, what it does, anything about you, the self that you can think of
thanks

Neeel
I read some info at the Marked Eternal Blog including dialogues so I have a basic understanding of the process. I’m familiar with non-dual and am a seeker that often feels like I know less than before. I only know what I experience, which is fear, worry & doubt.

I have expectations of waking up, enlightenment & liberation, bliss, oneness, joy, freedom from suffering, etc. I want to have a direct experience of seeing through the belief in a separate self.

The sense of self I have is this place behind my eyes that experiences thoughts, feelings & sensations and makes choices. That’s me. It feels like “I” am thinking, doing, having to be responsible for things to happen, and there’s fear if I don’t.

Neeel, I am in touch with the fear of being out of control, feeling unworthy, fear of failure and am plagued by worry & doubt. The worry feels like I have to ‘do’ to justify my existence, if I am not in control things will fall apart or worse I will be hurt or die. This impulse to ‘do’, to be in control is very present. The doubt causes suffering because I can have an experience or think I know something to be so but then reservations & apprehensions will seep in and then the worry & fear return.

I have ongoing mild to mid range anxiety attacks which appear in the solar plexus area. I also tend to take things personally, get offended and bruise easily.

Does this give you a sense of what’s happening? I feel ready and am very willing. Where do we go from here? Please advise.
Help.
Domenico

[neeeel]

I read some info at the Marked Eternal Blog including dialogues so I have a basic understanding of the process. I’m familiar with non-dual and am a seeker that often feels like I know less than before. I only know what I experience, which is fear, worry & doubt.

I have expectations of waking up, enlightenment & liberation, bliss, oneness, joy, freedom from suffering, etc. I want to have a direct experience of seeing through the belief in a separate self.

Its good to recognise what expectations you have, as I can tell you it will probably be nothing like what you expect. Also, we are not looking for an experience as such, or an altered mind state. Its not a quick path to eternal bliss or anything like that. We are looking for a simple recognition of reality, thats all.

The sense of self I have is this place behind my eyes that experiences thoughts, feelings & sensations and makes choices. That’s me.

So this place behind the eyes is you? Then who is the self who senses the sense of self?

It feels like “I” am thinking, doing, having to be responsible for things to happen, and there’s fear if I don’t.

Yes, it feels like you are thinking, doing, but are you? This is what you need to check. lets start with thoughts. Are you thinking thoughts? Can you choose the next thought? Can you stop thoughts from appearing?
I am not asking you to think about these questions. You need to look at what is happening. So, look at thoughts as they occur, and see if you can notice how you are thinking them.

[domenico]

I read some info at the Marked Eternal Blog including dialogues so I have a basic understanding of the process. I’m familiar with non-dual and am a seeker that often feels like I know less than before. I only know what I experience, which is fear, worry & doubt.

I have expectations of waking up, enlightenment & liberation, bliss, oneness, joy, freedom from suffering, etc. I want to have a direct experience of seeing through the belief in a separate self.

Its good to recognise what expectations you have, as I can tell you it will probably be nothing like what you expect. Also, we are not looking for an experience as such, or an altered mind state. Its not a quick path to eternal bliss or anything like that. We are looking for a simple recognition of reality, thats all.

The sense of self I have is this place behind my eyes that experiences thoughts, feelings & sensations and makes choices. That’s me.

So this place behind the eyes is you? Then who is the self who senses the sense of self?

It feels like “I” am thinking, doing, having to be responsible for things to happen, and there’s fear if I don’t.

Yes, it feels like you are thinking, doing, but are you? This is what you need to check. lets start with thoughts. Are you thinking thoughts? Can you choose the next thought? Can you stop thoughts from appearing?
I am not asking you to think about these questions. You need to look at what is happening. So, look at thoughts as they occur, and see if you can notice how you are thinking them.

So this place behind the eyes is you? Then who is the self who senses the sense of self?

Good question! As I look at this I can say, experiencing is happening, and it seems to be originated from behind the eyes. Hmm, seems like awareness is experiencing this sense of a 'self'.

Are you thinking thoughts? Can you choose the next thought? Can you stop thoughts from appearing?

No I cannot choose the next thought and cannot stop thoughts from appearing. I can at times see gaps between them and if I focus on the gap thoughts will stop temporarily, but then their off and running again. They come on their own and some are crazy as hell. It's like a computer generated game. Often I don't know what's next.
As far as am I thinking thoughts... it does feel personal and that there's ownership.... that there's somebody there that's responsible for them.
Domenico

[neeeel]

Good question! As I look at this I can say, experiencing is happening, and it seems to be originated from behind the eyes. Hmm, seems like awareness is experiencing this sense of a 'self'.

Nice. Thats some good looking there. So experiencing is happening. Is it happening to a self, to you?
Is this awareness you?
Take another good look and see what you can see.

No I cannot choose the next thought and cannot stop thoughts from appearing. I can at times see gaps between them and if I focus on the gap thoughts will stop temporarily, but then their off and running again. They come on their own and some are crazy as hell. It's like a computer generated game. Often I don't know what's next.

You can see gaps between them. Can you see them as they arise and fall away? Can you see if theres a you doing them, or if they just arise naturally and spontaneously. You say "they come on their own". does this not mean that you are not thinking them?

As far as am I thinking thoughts... it does feel personal and that there's ownership.... that there's somebody there that's responsible for them.

Ok it feels personal, but is it? Can you find the owner who has ownership? Look at the thoughts as they come up. Are there thoughts of a self? Are they different from other thoughts? Are there thoughts that dont feel personal? Are there times when you notice that the sense of self, the person responsible, has disappeared for a while, perhaps if you are watching a movie, or reading a book?

Again, its not a logical exercise, or a thought experiment. You need to actively look at what is happening in reality, look at the thoughts as they arise, as much as you can throughout the day.

neil

[domenico]

Nice. Thats some good looking there. So experiencing is happening. Is it happening to a self, to you?
Is this awareness you?
Take another good look and see what you can see.

For certain experiencing is happening and thoughts are experienced objectively. Thoughts can be watched/noticed. This says thoughts are the object of experience. It’s confusing because it seems I am having these thoughts, yet I can ‘see’ the thoughts, so this feels like I am the awareness experiencing the objects of thought.

You can see gaps between them. Can you see them as they arise and fall away? Can you see if theres a you doing them, or if they just arise naturally and spontaneously. You say "they come on their own". does this not mean that you are not thinking them?

Yes, when I close my eyes and look I can see thoughts rising and falling of their own accord. I cannot control them and it does suggest that I’m not thinking them. Again, there’s some confusion because it feels like I’m these thoughts, yet I can notice them objectively and not control them. Arrggg.

Ok it feels personal, but is it? Can you find the owner who has ownership? Look at the thoughts as they come up. Are there thoughts of a self? Are they different from other thoughts? Are there thoughts that dont feel personal? Are there times when you notice that the sense of self, the person responsible, has disappeared for a while, perhaps if you are watching a movie, or reading a book?

Yes there’s ‘me’ thoughts and I cannot see any difference from other thoughts. ‘Me’ thought is a thought. Neil, there’s an oscillation going on. I can observe thoughts which make me the experiencer, thoughts arise & fall on their own, yet I/me want to claim them. This is frustrating.
If I’m not these thoughts.. if I’m not having these thoughts then it means I have no control over choices, choices are just happening and am not responsible for them or my life. How can this be? This provokes curiosity & fear in me.

I'm feeling a little thick about this, like I can't see the obvious. That you're suggesting it makes it so and some fear of failure & inadequacy are bubbling up.
I will continue to look at thoughts as they arise throughout the day.
domenico

[neeeel]

For certain experiencing is happening and thoughts are experienced objectively. Thoughts can be watched/noticed. This says thoughts are the object of experience. It’s confusing because it seems I am having these thoughts, yet I can ‘see’ the thoughts, so this feels like I am the awareness experiencing the objects of thought.

Ok, so you need to look at this awareness and see if it is you, or if it is just awareness.

Yes, when I close my eyes and look I can see thoughts rising and falling of their own accord. I cannot control them and it does suggest that I’m not thinking them. Again, there’s some confusion because it feels like I’m these thoughts, yet I can notice them objectively and not control them. Arrggg.

"I am these thoughts". This is very interesting. Are you these thoughts? If there are no thoughts about a "you", does the "you" exist at that point? Perhaps the I exists only in thought? Take a look.

Yes there’s ‘me’ thoughts and I cannot see any difference from other thoughts. ‘Me’ thought is a thought. Neil, there’s an oscillation going on. I can observe thoughts which make me the experiencer, thoughts arise & fall on their own, yet I/me want to claim them. This is frustrating.

Yes, its tricky. Are you the experiencer? There is a space in which thoughts, sounds, sights, feelings etc arise. Is this space you? Look at the feelings of frustration, are you doing them? Are you experiencing them?

If I’m not these thoughts.. if I’m not having these thoughts then it means I have no control over choices, choices are just happening and am not responsible for them or my life. How can this be? This provokes curiosity & fear in me.

Yes, choices are just happening. And, choices have always just happened. Thats the thing. There has never been a self that was in control. Not ever. In the same way that you are not responsible for walking, walking just happens. Or do "you" control every single muscle in the correct sequence, step after step after step?

How can this be? I could go off into a long spiel, maybe its just better if you simply observe, and see that everything is just happening spontaneously. Choices, thoughts, walking, eating, sleeping, talking, etc. Observe other people, observe animals, observe trees and nature. Watch when choices happen. Are there thoughts about the choice? Are you thinking those thoughts?

The fear is good. Look at the fear and see if theres a you doing it? Or if its in response to thoughts. Fear usually arises from being threatened. What is being threatened here? Is the thing that is being threatened, a real, existing thing?


neil

[domenico]

Ok, so you need to look at this awareness and see if it is you, or if it is just awareness.

It’s just awareness yet seems to be who/what I really am. Descriptions make it complicated. Awareness is awareness. I could speak about it by saying, “I am awareness or awareness is what I am” and not be referring to a separate sense of self. This can be confusing. It seems the language being used here is that awareness is awareness and “I” am awareness doesn’t fit. Correct? Other non-dualist use the reference of “I am awareness”. Or awareness is our true nature. Let’s not get lost in semantics. Advise me on this point.
It’s clear what you’re pointing at… the sense of an “I” as a separate self is a thought. It seems this “I” thought gets in front of awareness and tries to claim the territory. I see that’s what you meant yesterday about ‘ownership’. It’s the sense of a self that seeks ownership. Like masquerading as awareness.

"I am these thoughts". This is very interesting. Are you these thoughts? If there are no thoughts about a "you", does the "you" exist at that point? Perhaps the I exists only in thought? Take a look.

Ahh, I see what you’re pointing out… no, if there are no thoughts about a ‘me’ then there’s no awareness of a ‘me’. Cool. A ‘me’ doesn’t exist unless there’s a ‘me’ thought. And, this awareness that’s always here gives the illusion that a ‘me’ is here whether there’s ‘me’ thoughts or not. It’s this awareness.
This is a significant point neil.. there’s always presence but not always a thought of a ‘me’. This is telling.

Yes, its tricky. Are you the experiencer? There is a space in which thoughts, sounds, sights, feelings etc arise. Is this space you? Look at the feelings of frustration, are you doing them? Are you experiencing them?

I don’t know if this language is correct but it seems like awareness is the experiencer. That space… awareness itself (of which I truly am), is the space that the ‘me’, ‘I’ appears as thought.
Ok frustration is a thought/feeling combo that happens and is experienced in awareness to no one… and it still feels like it’s happening to a ‘me’. Is this confusion what happens when a separate sense of me stands in front of awareness and claims the experience as it own? But in truth it’s experienced by awareness?

Yes, choices are just happening. And, choices have always just happened. Thats the thing. There has never been a self that was in control. Not ever. In the same way that you are not responsible for walking, walking just happens. Or do "you" control every single muscle in the correct sequence, step after step after step?

Neil, this is a stretch for me and going to require your patience. Helping me see this directly is very important (not that the rest isn’t)... and one of the most important components.
I can understand the spontaneity of the body (muscles, digestion, breathing, etc.) but concerning choices?
If choices are just happening, and nobody is choosing, then how does it all work? What’s choosing? I have preferences & desires that have dictated the unfolding of and direction of my life so far. If choices just happen is it that there’s no control or responsibility.. or that there’s no one in control or being responsible? Does this mean all the efforting is futile?
This is big for me in that I’ve been plagued my entire life with regrets, the fear of failure, being punished for it and unworthiness.

How can this be? I could go off into a long spiel, maybe its just better if you simply observe, and see that everything is just happening spontaneously. Choices, thoughts, walking, eating, sleeping, talking, etc. Observe other people, observe animals, observe trees and nature. Watch when choices happen. Are there thoughts about the choice? Are you thinking those thoughts?

Yes I agree and want to stay focused on my experience.
I will begin this observation and we may be spending some time here.
I notice your invitation is specifically, is there a ‘me’ thinking / making choices?

The fear is good. Look at the fear and see if theres a you doing it? Or if its in response to thoughts. Fear usually arises from being threatened. What is being threatened here? Is the thing that is being threatened, a real, existing thing?

I’ve clearly noticed that the fear arises in response to thoughts/stories. I can see that what’s being threatened is the sense of a separate self… yet there’s strong reaction. What to do when this happens? Emotions, thoughts, feelings off on a tangent.
Thank you for your guidance and patience.
Domenico

[neeeel]

It’s just awareness yet seems to be who/what I really am. Descriptions make it complicated. Awareness is awareness. I could speak about it by saying, “I am awareness or awareness is what I am” and not be referring to a separate sense of self. This can be confusing. It seems the language being used here is that awareness is awareness and “I” am awareness doesn’t fit. Correct? Other non-dualist use the reference of “I am awareness”. Or awareness is our true nature. Let’s not get lost in semantics. Advise me on this point.

I dont want to go off into discussion, as it doesnt really help us. Language can be difficult, yes. But what we are interested in finding out here, is if this awareness is you? Is it a separate entity that is in control? Are "you" doing this awareness?
Is it domenico, with all his memories, likes and dislikes? Is it more of a you than, say, your breath?Or your left big toe?

I am aware that this probably doesnt help much, all I can say is look for yourself.

It’s clear what you’re pointing at… the sense of an “I” as a separate self is a thought. It seems this “I” thought gets in front of awareness and tries to claim the territory. I see that’s what you meant yesterday about ‘ownership’. It’s the sense of a self that seeks ownership. Like masquerading as awareness.

Yes, do you see that everything that tries to claim ownership is just a thought? Just a thought, the same as a thought of "2+2=4", or "santa claus is fat and wears a red suit". I wouldnt say that the sense of a self is seeking ownership, that implies that the sense of a self can act independently. But rather that the sense of self arises from the constant thought commentary on what is happening.

I don’t know if this language is correct but it seems like awareness is the experiencer. That space… awareness itself (of which I truly am), is the space that the ‘me’, ‘I’ appears as thought.

Is awareness the experiencer? Does awareness experience a sound? Or is the awareness and the experience the same thing? Is there a separation between them? Look at things as they arise in your reality.

Ok frustration is a thought/feeling combo that happens and is experienced in awareness to no one… and it still feels like it’s happening to a ‘me’. Is this confusion what happens when a separate sense of me stands in front of awareness and claims the experience as it own? But in truth it’s experienced by awareness?

Well, you tell me? Its no good me telling you the answers, you need to look for yourself. Look at this separate sense of me. Is it a me? If not, what is it? What is it that is claiming the experience? Who is it who is claiming the experience?

Neil, this is a stretch for me and going to require your patience. Helping me see this directly is very important (not that the rest isn’t)... and one of the most important components.
I can understand the spontaneity of the body (muscles, digestion, breathing, etc.) but concerning choices?
If choices are just happening, and nobody is choosing, then how does it all work? What’s choosing? I have preferences & desires that have dictated the unfolding of and direction of my life so far. ?

The brain is a brilliant storer and processor of information. I offer you the choice of an apple or an orange. Light bounces of the fruit, enters your eyes, is converted to electricity, electricity passes through the pathway of the brain, in which is encoded information about object recognition, previous experience, things you like, things you dont like etc. the end result of the external stimuli is a decision on which fruit to pick. No you needed to do anything. Its a spontaneous biological process.
Is there really a little you sitting behind your eyes, watching a movie screen, and then pressing a button to choose the apple?

If choices just happen is it that there’s no control or responsibility.. or that there’s no one in control or being responsible? Does this mean all the efforting is futile?

There is no-one in control, and there never has been. We are a stimulus response unit. stimuli in - processing done -response out. Of course, its much more complex than that, but thats the general idea. Are there certain people that "push your buttons"? trigger a response? did you decide to respond the way you did?
Spend some time observing your thoughts and actions, and see if you can identify what stimuli caused a thought to rise, or an action to occur.

This is big for me in that I’ve been plagued my entire life with regrets, the fear of failure, being punished for it and unworthiness.

Ok, take a look at all these. Look at regrets, what are they exactly? Are they thoughts? Thoughts about a you? Thoughts of past, thoughts of future. Are these thoughts a true picture of reality? Thoughts about self exist. Do the thoughts refer to anything real. you have a thought "I am a real dumbass", is the "I" in that thought real? Is it you that is thinking these thoughts?

[domenico]

I dont want to go off into discussion, as it doesnt really help us. Language can be difficult, yes. But what we are interested in finding out here, is if this awareness is you? Is it a separate entity that is in control? Are "you"doing this awareness?
Is it domenico, with all his memories, likes and dislikes? Is it more of a you than, say, your breath?Or your left big toe?

I am aware that this probably doesnt help much, all I can say is look for yourself.

On the contrary, you’re clear. I am looking for myself and trying to give it language we can be on the same page with. “I” am not doing this awareness. Awareness is. This awareness is not ‘me’.

Yes, do you see that everything that tries to claim ownership is just a thought? Just a thought, the same as a thought of "2+2=4", or "santa claus is fat and wears a red suit". I wouldnt say that the sense of a self is seeking ownership, that implies that the sense of a self can act independently. But rather that the sense of self arises from the constant thought commentary on what is happening.

Yes, yes I see that everything that tries to claim ownership is thought. Can you agree with my seeing that awareness experiences (or experiencing happens in awareness) and then the sense of a separate self steps in and claims ownership? This feels very clear to me.

Is awareness the experiencer? Does awareness experience a sound? Or is the awareness and the experience the same thing? Is there a separation between them? Look at things as they arise in your reality.

Ahh.. I just addressed this above. My articulations are wobbly. Yes, I can see that awareness is not “the experiencer” per se, but that the experiencer, experience & experienced all appear in awareness and therefore are NOT separate from it. Wow.

Well, you tell me? Its no good me telling you the answers, you need to look for yourself. Look at this separate sense of me. Is it a me? If not, what is it? What is it that is claiming the experience? Who is it who is claiming the experience?

My initial suspicion was correct. At this point I can see it is the ‘claim’ of a ‘me’ claiming ‘frustration’. A thought about a thought.

The brain is a brilliant storer and processor of information. I offer you the choice of an apple or an orange. Light bounces of the fruit, enters your eyes, is converted to electricity, electricity passes through the pathway of the brain, in which is encoded information about object recognition, previous experience, things you like, things you dont like etc. the end result of the external stimuli is a decision on which fruit to pick. No you needed to do anything. Its a spontaneous biological process.
Is there really a little you sitting behind your eyes, watching a movie screen, and then pressing a button to choose the apple?

Stimulus and response. My God, that’s the best description I’ve heard. I see that. So clear. So simple.

There is no-one in control, and there never has been. We are a stimulus response unit. stimuli in - processing done -response out. Of course, its much more complex than that, but thats the general idea. Are there certain people that "push your buttons"? trigger a response? did you decide to respond the way you did?
Spend some time observing your thoughts and actions, and see if you can identify what stimuli caused a thought to rise, or an action to occur.

Again, I see this… clear and simple. For some time I’ve had a feel for the components of this but you’re assemblage paints a clear picture of my experience.

Ok, take a look at all these. Look at regrets, what are they exactly? Are they thoughts? Thoughts about a you? Thoughts of past, thoughts of future. Are these thoughts a true picture of reality? Thoughts about self exist. Do the thoughts refer to anything real? You have a thought "I am a real dumbass", is the "I" in that thought real? Is it you that is thinking these thoughts?

In the past two days of dialoguing with you, especially today, it’s become easier to distinguish between the real and the imagined. The truth about my above regret comments are so obvious from here.
Regrets are thoughts, regrets about ‘me’ are thoughts about thoughts. Your point is taken that thoughts happen but their content/meaning are not real.

So far I’ve seen that the separate sense of self is a thought that claims ownership of appearances in awareness, and that this awake aliveness that’s mistaken for a ‘me’ is awareness.
It’s also clear to me that this body/mind is an automated computer like organism with memory, associations and anchored responses that determine choices/preferences and that there’s no ‘me’ behind the curtain pushing or pulling levers.
Domenico

[neeeel]

Yes, yes I see that everything that tries to claim ownership is thought. Can you agree with my seeing that awareness experiences (or experiencing happens in awareness) and then the sense of a separate self steps in and claims ownership? This feels very clear to me.

As I said, how can a sense of self step in and do anything? But in general you are on the right track, yes.

My initial suspicion was correct. At this point I can see it is the ‘claim’ of a ‘me’ claiming ‘frustration’. A thought about a thought.

Frustration exists, theres no doubt about that. Do you see that theres no you doing it, no you seeing it. And that , as you say, any sense of you is just a thought with an "I" tag attached?

So far I’ve seen that the separate sense of self is a thought that claims ownership of appearances in awareness, and that this awake aliveness that’s mistaken for a ‘me’ is awareness.
It’s also clear to me that this body/mind is an automated computer like organism with memory, associations and anchored responses that determine choices/preferences and that there’s no ‘me’ behind the curtain pushing or pulling levers.
Domenico

Awesome.

Can you give me a bit of a rant about how you are seeing things now? As you are sitting typing your next post, can you give me a description of what is going on in your reality. How are things happening? A sort of stream of consciousness, maybe.

Also, can you answer the following questions, in as much detail as you can

1) is there a self in any way, shape, or form?
2) what is the self and how does it operate?
3) what is different now( if anything), from before you saw all this?
4) how would you explain this to a friend?

neil

[domenico]

As I said, how can a sense of self step in and do anything? But in general you are on the right track, yes.

I’m having difficulty expressing what I’m seeing and appreciate your helping get this clear.
Experiencing happens in awareness and a belief in a separate ‘me’ claims ownership of the experience as its own. This point is the most important here and has been a major stumbling block for seeing through the belief in a separate ‘me’. The belief that thoughts are happening to ‘me’ and that that ‘me’ is in control and responsible for choice.

Frustration exists, theres no doubt about that. Do you see that theres no you doing it, no you seeing it. And that , as you say, any sense of you is just a thought with an "I" tag attached?

Yes, no ‘me’ being frustrated. Frustration is happening with an “I” tag attached.

Can you give me a bit of a rant about how you are seeing things now? As you are sitting typing your next post, can you give me a description of what is going on in your reality. How are things happening? A sort of stream of consciousness, maybe.

As I sit here typing, I’m feeling a little fragile. I awoke again with the usual feelings that can be labeled as anxiety due to this past years life circumstances (related to relationship & finances). Also, there’s some fear running about my ability to take advantage of this opportunity and working with LU to see through belief due to the old fear of failure. This can feel like somewhat of a setback if I’m not paying attention. I feel I’ve been looking directly and seeing and also wonder if it’s just an intellectual understanding. I’m doing my best to be honest and directly look instead of coming up with the right answers for acknowledgment.

Since our interaction began I’ve been better able to allow the fear & doubt and not get so identified with the storyline that accompanies them. I’m not experiencing a major transformative ‘eureka’ moment but I am having a number of significant aha’s. These 3 days have been extremely valuable for me and I feel great strides have been made, and fear is still there. Fear of failure and fear of the future. In this process right now I’m experiencing certainty with some uncertainty. There’s some wavering going on.

I see the belief in a ‘me’ is just a thought that claims ownership of experiences and ownership of the body/mind.
Where in truth, experiences happen in awareness and there’s no ‘me’ there. I now can perceive this body/mind organism as just a collection of behaviors, beliefs & reactions based in memory that wants to justify an existence of a ‘me’. This body/mind is only a stimulus / response mechanism. This understanding is a big aha for me and at the same time I can feel the fear it evokes of being out of control. It’s an automatic reaction and though low grade it’s a strong holding on in an unconscious way.

I’m experiencing a semi weak wavering back to the ‘me’ sense, feeling somebody is there having to choose and be in control. The wavering is thoughts of uncertainty… and I see they are thoughts. It’s all thoughts…. and I see the habituation that wants to create a ‘me’. It’s an addiction. My attention is needed to keep looking due to the doubt & uncertainty that want to rise up.

Also, can you answer the following questions, in as much detail as you can
1) is there a self in any way, shape, or form?
2) what is the self and how does it operate?
3) what is different now( if anything), from before you saw all this?
4) how would you explain this to a friend?

1) No, there’s no self. Never was.
2) Its a label placed on an imaginary somebody. An experience happens and a belief in a separate sense of an “I” attaches to the experience claiming ownership. Hearing happens followed by “I” hear, seeing happens followed by “I” see.
3) There’s a sense of relaxation and distance from the stories (worry, fear, doubt, chatter) and a sense of trust. Lack of trust has always been a big issue here. To begin to see that there’s nobody here and nobody needed to be responsible and to worry is new and welcome.
4) I would first listen for an interest and wait for a window that relates to their circumstances then suggest that the root of suffering is not in analyzing the content of thoughts and feelings or controlling, changing or eliminating them but in seeing through the belief in a separate self that thinks it’s having the experience in the first place.
Domenico

[neeeel]

I’m experiencing a semi weak wavering back to the ‘me’ sense, feeling somebody is there having to choose and be in control. The wavering is thoughts of uncertainty… and I see they are thoughts. It’s all thoughts…. and I see the habituation that wants to create a ‘me’. It’s an addiction. My attention is needed to keep looking due to the doubt & uncertainty that want to rise up.

The thing is, there is no you, anywhere. This means there is no you to "get" this. So unless your brain gets totally rewired ( and I think that does happen occasionally to people who see this) then old patterns, old habits, old conditioning, is still in there. The brain still creates a sense of me, the me thoughts keep coming. the difference is that the brain can see through the illusion. So, yes, every time the sense of self comes up, you can just check again that its true that theres no self.

I can feel the fear it evokes of being out of control

fear is still there. Fear of failure and fear of the future

There’s some wavering going on

I think you are almost done, but maybe you need to spend some time looking at this fear.

What is it about "being out of control" that evokes fear? Who is it that is wanting to be in control? What is it that you want to be in control of? Remember that its not that the self has somehow been evicted, its that there never has been a self, ever. If its true that there never has been a self, who or what was it that was in control for all those years before you came on this forum?

Take a look at these thoughts about control, and see that, again, they are just thoughts.

[domenico]

The thing is, there is no you, anywhere. This means there is no you to "get" this. So unless your brain gets totally rewired ( and I think that does happen occasionally to people who see this) then old patterns, old habits, old conditioning, is still in there. The brain still creates a sense of me, the me thoughts keep coming. the difference is that the brain can see through the illusion. So, yes, every time the sense of self comes up, you can just check again that its true that theres no self.

Thanks, these comments are very helpful & supportive and help me to not trust the doubt. So the brain keeps creating this sense of me. Is it like an echo that fades with time?

I think you are almost done, but maybe you need to spend some time looking at this fear.

What is it about "being out of control" that evokes fear? Who is it that is wanting to be in control? What is it that you want to be in control of? Remember that its not that the self has somehow been evicted, its that there never has been a self, ever. If its true that there never has been a self, who or what was it that was in control for all those years before you came on this forum?

It seems the real issue is the identity with feelings also. Something different happened this morning. When I awoke the usual anxiety in the solar plexus began. When I noticed it I suddenly had the thought, “this is being experienced by nobody”. In that moment something changed. There was a new level of relaxation, allowance and non-resistance that I formerly had not known. I was able to continue this noticing for some time. The feeling of anxiety became just a label-less sensation that spread throughout my body. It was allowed to be just an experience but not ‘to’ someone for a long time. This is significant for me.
Formerly, no matter how hard I tried to not resist or allow, it didn’t work. It’s obvious the key is seeing through the belief that there’s a “someone” that has to allow or not resist.
I’m staying with this notion of nobody having this experience throughout the day as best possible and also applying it to the fear of being out of control.
Domenico