Asking for a guide

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Janie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 am

Asking for a guide

Postby Janie » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:55 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
After reading the two books written bij Ilona and Elena I feel that my journey for the last three years were preparing me to come to this site in (re)discovering that there is no self/I/me . Every book, workshop, experience and website came exactly at the right time. Especially the last couple of months I experienced that I am not the doer, things just happen and exactly at the right order. The more I surrender/relax in how everyday unfolds the more beautiful/fun things happen and when I want to put effort in things and try to make things happen it most off the time it backfires or drains so much energy with not the complete result I was hoping for.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
Although I already understand it intellectually that there can't be an I/me/self and can see this in day tot day life there is still the feeling that there is an I. So I have the longing to completely see this and get it, because life will be so much easier to relax in this instead of controlling life. And it is not about only good things will happen even when more negative emotions or situations arise it still can be experienced as good/educational because it is just what happens and the emotion or situation is not the problem but it is the story we attach to it and the identification with the I is causing the most amount of suffering. During reading the books I was hoping to get enlightened and that it will happen with a Big Bang, but now I understand that this will not happen and it is the I feeling that want this so it can feel special.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
The last three years I read a lot of books and followed a couple of workshops on non-duality. I wasn't deliberate seeking and inquiring on this topic and haven't meditated.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?
11

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby DanielP » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:26 pm

Hi Janie,

My name is Daniel from Canada. Nice to meet you! :) If you are ok with that, I'm offering you guidance in this process.

First, please make sure you've read the disclaimer. http://liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

Now a few quick guidelines: try to post daily/regularly or post to say that a break is needed if that's the case; also please set aside any other spiritual practices, readings during our inquiry together.

If you could confirm you have seen the above and that you're ok with that - then we shall begin.

All the best,
Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Janie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 am

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby Janie » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:28 am

Hi Daniel,

Thank you that you want to guide me. I read the link and agree with it and the conditions.
I am ready for this journey!

Warm greetings,

Janie

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby DanielP » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:01 pm

Hi Janie,

I'm gonna jump right in and ask some comments/questions about your expectations.
Although I already understand it intellectually that there can't be an I/me/self and can see this in day tot day life there is still the feeling that there is an I.
Yeah, this is why you're here right?, because of this "feeling".
So I have the longing to completely see this and get it, because life will be so much easier to relax in this instead of controlling life.
With no one in charge, life is indeed a lot easier.
And it is not about only good things will happen even when more negative emotions or situations arise it still can be experienced as good/educational because it is just what happens and the emotion or situation is not the problem but it is the story we attach to it and the identification with the I is causing the most amount of suffering.
Yes, things happen and they happen because they happen. Also, seeing through the illusion of a separate self might or might not come with "fireworks". In my experience, most often then not, it doesn't. All that is required is simple and honest looking. Looking at your actual experience rather then what you think or believe your experience to be.
During reading the books I was hoping to get enlightened and that it will happen with a Big Bang, but now I understand that this will not happen and it is the I feeling that want this so it can feel special.
Yes, this is a good way of putting it. Wanting to feel special, the question is "Who is this I" that wants to feel special?

How does these little comments feel? Any comments/questions?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Janie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 am

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby Janie » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:12 pm

Hi Daniel,

Feelings of excitement arise and it feels like I'm a child going on a schooltrip :-)

Yes the reason why I'm here is because of the "feeling of an I"
Yes, things happen and they happen because they happen. Also, seeing through the illusion of a separate self might or might not come with "fireworks". In my experience, most often then not, it doesn't. All that is required is simple and honest looking. Looking at your actual experience rather then what you think or believe your experience to be.
I can see the difference when you actually look at the experience and when I attach a story to it by what I think and believe. The thoughts arise when there is no fireworks how do "I" know that "I" get it, see it etc?
Yes, this is a good way of putting it. Wanting to feel special, the question is "Who is this I" that wants to feel special?
At this point there are thoughts popping up as if there is a new I that is thinking that it is the more "spiritual" I. It comments like just look at what is happening, gives instructions in what to do with the normal/old I and says the old I is not real. It says also the though that just pops up is just a thought and is judging if "I" falls in the trap of following thoughts or worse is having a conversation in my head. Sometimes it is very funny that there is a spiritual I that is commenting on the old I. I think the spiritual I wants to be special and wants to get it (the no self), but how can an I see another I? It is just replacing one I for another I. It pretends that it is something looking above and behind my body looking at what my body is doing, what is being felt, which thoughts arise and who does the seeing of what is experienced. The old I feels more in my head and behind my eyes.

Regards,

Janie

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby DanielP » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:17 pm

Hi Janie,

Thank you for this post, I feel you as open and ready for this kind of inquiry :)
At this point there are thoughts popping up as if there is a new I that is thinking that it is the more "spiritual" I. It comments like just look at what is happening, gives instructions in what to do with the normal/old I and says the old I is not real. It says also the though that just pops up is just a thought and is judging if "I" falls in the trap of following thoughts or worse is having a conversation in my head. Sometimes it is very funny that there is a spiritual I that is commenting on the old I. I think the spiritual I wants to be special and wants to get it (the no self), but how can an I see another I? It is just replacing one I for another I. It pretends that it is something looking above and behind my body looking at what my body is doing, what is being felt, which thoughts arise and who does the seeing of what is experienced. The old I feels more in my head and behind my eyes.
ok, I'm not sure what to think about this passage. In psychology, there is a way of presenting things which involve sub-personalities. For instance, we have a commander in chief, an inner critique, a hero, a victim, a good mother/father, a bad mother/father sub-personality etc. This approach is known as voice dialogue (Hal and Sidra Stone). So this could be what your talking about in this passage. A "more spiritual I" managing the "least spiritual" one. Or it could be something else.

The work we do here doesn't involve this kind of psychological work. It only involve seeing for yourself if there really is such an "I". Whatever that is.

Also, just to make sure, do we agree that there is only one "you"? Which can be seen as a kind of multi-faceted personality?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Janie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 am

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby Janie » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:51 pm

Hi Daniel,
Also, just to make sure, do we agree that there is only one "you"? Which can be seen as a kind of multi-faceted personality? l
Yes it is more a multi-faceted personality. And there is only one I/me. It feels it is just switching position from in my head behind my eyes to behind and above my head. When looking there is no one behind my eyes.

Regards,
Janie

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby DanielP » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:37 pm

Hi Janie,

Sorry for the late answer. Today was a busy day :) so let's dive into the heart of the matter:

When talking about your 'self', what are you talking about? What are you referring to?
How do you think, feel or experience this 'me', this 'self' or this 'I'?
Where is this you? Where is it located? Is it inside your body? Inside one part of your body? Is it somewhere else? Is your body, you? Where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside?
Does it feel solid or else spacy or airy? Does it feel permanent or fixed? Does it change? Does it feel separate or distinct in any way? Does it feel more or less solid or obvious depending on experience? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Janie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 am

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby Janie » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:23 pm

No problem Daniel!

Thank you for these questions.
I read a couple of posts here and thought the guides ask very good and logical questions but now when you ask me these questions directly it has a very confronting direct impact and is very confusing. At first my mind goes blank, no thoughts, then thoughts about defending the "I" but then thoughts about that they don't fit when you directly look at it and thoughts arise how I'm suppose to answers these questions after reading the books as I understand it intellectually. But I want to answer the questions as honest as I can so in what I see when looking. So this is my first reaction and will look at this tomorrow some more.
When talking about your 'self', what are you talking about? What are you referring to?
How do you think, feel or experience this 'me', this 'self' or this 'I'?
When I talk about myself I refer to the name received at birth and how this "I" experience things, what is happening, what it has done, what its opinion is etc. It is like how this "I" perceive and experience life. It is also referring to characteristics, preferences, qualities, troubles and past experiences etc. These are thoughts when I think of an "I". To feel or to experience this "me" is more difficult to grasp because to me it isn't a clear feeling but just a vague sense, a presence of an "I" that is watching behind my eyes and now more watching behind my head that also sees the body, sees the thoughts and sees the feelings in the body. Hmmm writing this it sounds weird. How can an I be behind my body? And the "I" behind my eyes also doesn't fit anymore but maybe it is because I read about it. I'm getting confused LOL. The only thing I can come up with for now is that I have a sense that "something" is watching thoughts, objects, feelings, persons, body moving and things in life happening and I call that "me".
Where is this you? Where is it located? Is it inside your body? Inside one part of your body? Is it somewhere else? Is your body, you? Where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside?
My body can't be "me" because I see my body so that sounds strange to call that "me".
The "me sense" is the strongest behind my eyes or looking trough my eyes. Because "something" is watching/seeing everything.
Does it feel solid or else spacy or airy? Does it feel permanent or fixed? Does it change? Does it feel separate or distinct in any way? Does it feel more or less solid or obvious depending on experience? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?
It feels vague more airy. It isn't fixed because it changes. When I'm focused/in flow then there is no sense of a "me". The sense of a "me" only pops up if I think, so when thoughts pop up there is this sense of an "I" or when I speak to people or in my head then there is the referring to an "I" and the sense of an "I".

It is strange to write about the I/me/self. Sometimes there is a strong sense about the I/me/self is something separate or better an illusion and sometimes I myself identify with the I or speak from the I. It gets confusing because who is doing the looking at the I/me/self? I tried it to distinct this with when I see the illusion I wrote it with "I", "me", "self" and without "" when I feel the I. I hope this makes more sense to you then is does to me at this moment LOL.

Regards,

Janie

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby DanielP » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:37 pm

Hi Janie,
when you ask me these questions directly it has a very confronting direct impact and is very confusing
yes it can be very confronting indeed. This process is all about questioning deep beliefs about yourself and how you think things are, and see if they match your actual experience. As you can guess, the answer is no, but this, you have to find out for yourself.
When I talk about myself I refer to the name received at birth and how this "I" experience things, what is happening, what it has done, what its opinion is etc. It is like how this "I" perceive and experience life. It is also referring to characteristics, preferences, qualities, troubles and past experiences etc. These are thoughts when I think of an "I".
ok so you have a very standard way of seeing the "I". You are perfectly "normal" then! LOL.
To feel or to experience this "me" is more difficult to grasp because to me it isn't a clear feeling but just a vague sense, a presence of an "I" that is watching behind my eyes and now more watching behind my head that also sees the body, sees the thoughts and sees the feelings in the body. Hmmm writing this it sounds weird. How can an I be behind my body? And the "I" behind my eyes also doesn't fit anymore but maybe it is because I read about it. I'm getting confused LOL.
now we're getting to this undefined something: "I have this feeling that there is something (an "I") but I can't quite put my finger on".
The only thing I can come up with for now is that I have a sense that "something" is watching thoughts, objects, feelings, persons, body moving and things in life happening and I call that "me".
yes, we'll come back to this later on.
My body can't be "me" because I see my body so that sounds strange to call that "me". The "me sense" is the strongest behind my eyes or looking trough my eyes. Because "something" is watching/seeing everything.
yes, "something" but what?
It feels vague more airy. It isn't fixed because it changes. When I'm focused/in flow then there is no sense of a "me". The sense of a "me" only pops up if I think, so when thoughts pop up there is this sense of an "I" or when I speak to people or in my head then there is the referring to an "I" and the sense of an "I".
airy, yes, when your in a flow there is no sense of me, yes, "I" pops up when thoughts are present, yes.
It is strange to write about the I/me/self. Sometimes there is a strong sense about the I/me/self is something separate or better an illusion and sometimes I myself identify with the I or speak from the I. It gets confusing because who is doing the looking at the I/me/self? I tried it to distinct this with when I see the illusion I wrote it with "I", "me", "self" and without "" when I feel the I. I hope this makes more sense to you then is does to me at this moment LOL.
as I said before, you are perfectly "normal" LOL.

Good Janie, very good. Now we'll try to see if the standard way of seeing the "I" is true, and also try to figure out what is this "something".

Tell me, this "something", this "sense of me", what size is it? Is it small or large? Does it have colour or shape or texture?
Does it feel like it’s in the centre or middle of experience? Does this 'self' own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Janie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 am

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby Janie » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:14 pm

Hi Daniel,
as I said before, you are perfectly "normal" LOL.
Haha good to hear that I am perfectly 'normal' LOL
Good Janie, very good. Now we'll try to see if the standard way of seeing the "I" is true, and also try to figure out what is this "something".

Tell me, this "something", this "sense of me", what size is it? Is it small or large? Does it have colour or shape or texture?
Yes, interesting question/direction what is this vague sense of a 'something'?
Hmmm while looking it feels like I am trying to look with my eyes to see the back of my own head. No matter how hard I try I don't see the back of my own head.
So what I got is this 'something' is not something I can see with my own eyes. Check! So it is more a feeling or a sense of 'something'. But this sense is not large or clear so I guess it is small, so no fact. When I go further it doesn't have a shape or colour or texture. What pops up it is more an energy, a soul. This is an option but this doesn't satisfy me, it feels still to vaguely. In short this sense of something gets stuck here, it can't describe itself :-)
Does it feel like it’s in the centre or middle of experience? Does this 'self' own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?
No it doesn't feel like the center or middle of the experience because it isn't part of the experience 'it' is just watching the experience. This sense of 'self' doesn't own the body, thoughts and feelings because it only experiences the body, thoughts and feelings.

Hihihi it feels like some circuits in my brain are getting fried. Confusing and frustrating but I also feel excited. So bring it on!!!! LOL

Regards,

Janie

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby DanielP » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:39 am

Hi Janie,
Yes, interesting question/direction what is this vague sense of a 'something'?
Hmmm while looking it feels like I am trying to look with my eyes to see the back of my own head. No matter how hard I try I don't see the back of my own head.
So what I got is this 'something' is not something I can see with my own eyes. Check!
You’re saying something important here. Looking at the back of your head…So in searching for yourself, you are looking IN instead of looking OUT! This is important, also, you're saying that you cannot SEE this ‘something’. This fact has been described in a in variety of ways : the eyes cannot see itself or what’s looking cannot be looked at since it is the ‘thing’ doing the looking…
So it is more a feeling or a sense of 'something'. But this sense is not large or clear so I guess it is small, so no fact. When I go further it doesn't have a shape or colour or texture. What pops up it is more an energy, a soul. This is an option but this doesn't satisfy me, it feels still to vaguely. In short this sense of something gets stuck here, it can't describe itself :-)
Ok, so basically, you’re saying that it escapes definition.
No it doesn't feel like the center or middle of the experience because it isn't part of the experience 'it' is just watching the experience. This sense of 'self' doesn't own the body, thoughts and feelings because it only experiences the body, thoughts and feelings.
Fine, so you seem to be seeing your ‘self’ on the experiencer side of the equation rather then on the experience side. Let me try to explain what I mean by this.

First, if I summarize our daily experience as involving thoughts, feelings, perceptions and sensations, do you agree that this more or less all what we experience on a daily basis? I’ll presume that your answer is yes.

If we look at the normal way of seeing your ‘self’ (the chooser, the experiencer...). In the experience: I have a thought or, I’m having the experience of a thought. You see your ‘self’ as the ‘I’, the ‘experiencer’, the ‘experiencing entity’ or 'that which' is experiencing thoughts, but also feelings, perceptions and sensations, right?

Just to make sure, do you consider your 'self' to be :
the thinker or the thought?
the feeler or the feeling?
the perceiver or the thing perceived?
the senser or the sensation?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Janie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 am

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby Janie » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:27 pm

[quote][/quote]

User avatar
Janie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 am

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby Janie » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:59 pm

Hello Daniel,
You’re saying something important here. Looking at the back of your head…So in searching for yourself, you are looking IN instead of looking OUT! This is important,
I mean I'm trying to see with my eyes the back of my head to see how my hear looks on the back. So technically it is looking out but I guess you don't mean this.
you're saying that you cannot SEE this ‘something’. This fact has been described in a in variety of ways : the eyes cannot see itself or what’s looking cannot be looked at since it is the ‘thing’ doing the looking…
Yes I agree especially the last one fits: what's looking cannot be looked at since it is the 'thing' doing the looking.
Ok, so basically, you’re saying that it escapes definition.
Yes.
First, if I summarize our daily experience as involving thoughts, feelings, perceptions and sensations, do you agree that this more or less all what we experience on a daily basis? I’ll presume that your answer is yes.
Yes I agree.
If we look at the normal way of seeing your ‘self’ (the chooser, the experiencer...). In the experience: I have a thought or, I’m having the experience of a thought. You see your ‘self’ as the ‘I’, the ‘experiencer’, the ‘experiencing entity’ or 'that which' is experiencing thoughts, but also feelings, perceptions and sensations, right?
Right!
Just to make sure, do you consider your 'self' to be :
the thinker or the thought?
the feeler or the feeling?
the perceiver or the thing perceived?
the senser or the sensation?
Yes I see my 'self' as the thinker, feeler, perceiver, senser but only in the sense of the 'watcher'. It is not that the 'self' is doing the thinking, feeling etc. 'It' has no influence on it by 'itself' on the thoughts, feelings, perceived and sensations. Only when more thoughts pop up and so a story is attached to the thought, feeling etc. it feels like there is identification with the 'self'. The 'self' is just aware of it all.

Regards,

Janie

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Asking for a guide

Postby DanielP » Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:57 am

Hi Janie,

Sorry again a busy day at work, I'll answer tomorrow.

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 48 guests