Before I digress

[BBD]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I have been listening to some satangs of Robert Adams and the message really resonates with me but I have difficulty not judging and not viewing myself as separate. In recent weeks I have been anxious because of external uncertainty and I am worried that I will get completely absorbed in my fake life as it seems very real now. So I am hoping to find a stabilising force or anchor by reaching out to those that see what is really real.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
To live in truth permanently and not go back and forth. To lose my ego and operate from stillness. To connect with others who resonate with the same frequency, life a tuning fork tuning and being amplified.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
Limited, some things I have always known are true others came as sudden insight. I have no spiritual practice or desire for anything other than self enquiry. I am afraid of losing myself and yet I long for it, there is an undeniable pull.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 8

[Florisness]

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed:) How can I call you?

If you like, it could guide you. If you agree on that, than there are some guidelines:

- Put spiritual books, and videos aside. Doing meditation is fine.
- Try posting every day, in this way there will be a momentum.
- Be 100% honest.
- What we do here is simple, we look in our experience. Please read: http://liberationunleashed.com/resource ... xperience/ This part is very important.
- I would ask questions, you will look deeply and honestly and respond.
- Please learn to use the quote function; http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

This guiding process is just to make you realize that there is not at self. This isn't anything spectacular at all, life just goes on. We won't be needing those big brains of ours much during our talk, we'll just take it simple and easy:)

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

Floris

[BBD]

Hi Floris you can call me Bettine

Thank you for being willing to be my guide, I gladly accept. I have seen your guidelines and requests and am ready to begin.

B

[Florisness]

Hi Bettine!

First thing which is good to look into are expectations as they aren't very helpful in this process.

To live in truth permanently and not go back and forth. To lose my ego and operate from stillness. To connect with others who resonate with the same frequency, life a tuning fork tuning and being amplified.

Okay, this most likely won't happen. "your" ego won't blast away after seeing there is no self, would be nice though wouldn't it :D. Also 'you' won't connect with 'others', since both you and others don't exist.
Any more expectations? here some help-questions where expectation can hide:
- how will you feel after seeing there is no self?
- how will it happen/look like?
- how will life be different?

Are you willing to set your expectation aside for the duration of our talk?

I am afraid of losing myself and yet I long for it, there is an undeniable pull.

Do you still experience this fear? When does it come up?

Look forward hearing from you,
Floris

[BBD]

Hi Floris

In answer to your questions on expectations:

- how will you feel after seeing there is no self?

Limitless, peaceful and detached....and yes also a little relieved.

- how will it happen/look like?

Do you still experience this fear? When does it come up?

These go hand in hand, a few years ago I had an experience of feeling connected to everything and dissolving into it, which is wonderful. But I pulled back from it because I was afraid that I would die, or worse I would become mentally or physically impaired (lose my body & mind or some combination thereof) and also what that would mean for the people around me.

These days when I focus on my feeling of aliveness or awareness I feel a similar sensation and am aware of a similar resistance, it might come down to being attached to my body because

- how will life be different?

I don't really expect anything to be different but I can't imagine still having a body, I honestly don't think it is necessary.

I will note here that strong emotions such as anxiety seem to muddle my sense of awareness, and yet it is still there, in plain sight just hard to see. This is something I would expect to get more distance from.

I am however willing to suspend my expectations and just go with it.

Thank you this in itself has been helpful.
B

[Florisness]

Thank you for that.

Limitless, peaceful and detached....and yes also a little relieved.

The little relieved might happen. But the 'limitless, peaceful and detached' are a bit beyond the scope of seeing through the self (what we do here), although you might feel a little freer.

These go hand in hand, a few years ago I had an experience of feeling connected to everything and dissolving into it, which is wonderful. But I pulled back from it because I was afraid that I would die, or worse I would become mentally or physically impaired (lose my body & mind or some combination thereof) and also what that would mean for the people around me.

These days when I focus on my feeling of aliveness or awareness I feel a similar sensation and am aware of a similar resistance, it might come down to being attached to my body because

Not sure if you typed more than this since it stopped at 'because'.

I will note here that strong emotions such as anxiety seem to muddle my sense of awareness, and yet it is still there, in plain sight just hard to see. This is something I would expect to get more distance from.

So let's look into this fear a bit more, let's try bringing it to the surface. Read the following and tell me what comes up:

There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life - no doer of actions, no maker of decisions, no "entity" there at all - nothing, nada, zip; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement.

Oh and btw, you can subscribe to this conversation by hitting the 'topic tools' button next to the 'post reply' and press 'subscribe topic'.

F

[BBD]

Hi Floris

Today's question was very effective.

There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life - no doer of actions, no maker of decisions, no "entity" there at all - nothing, nada, zip; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement./quote]

This made me look at the fear I experience when I have the dissolving sensation and realize that it is two different I's.

The permanent I is everything, always, not something I am turning into just something I become aware of.

The personal I is the one that is afraid, to strengthen the identity and confirm my separateness, this is a false fear because in reality I am everything already including the body....so my mind and body will not change, nothing is happening to it. It is not that I that dissolves into everything, it is the other I that is.

As far as decisions go I have been noticing things that indicate that everything that happens is an inevitable consequence of other things that are going on, given the circumstances and affecting factors no other outcome is possible, so yes no-one truly decides anything. The actual doing I still have difficulty seeing how no-one is doing it, only that it is inevitable that it is done.

With regards to the quote below, it was a clumsy transition into the third part of the question to explain that I thought I was too attached to my body and couldn't let go of it or envision how I could dissolve into everything and have a body.

These days when I focus on my feeling of aliveness or awareness I feel a similar sensation and am aware of a similar resistance, it might come down to being attached to my body because

Not sure if you typed more than this since it stopped at 'because'.

Turns out it has nothing to do with that body. (Slaps forehead)

I also noticed that being mindful came by itself while thinking of there being no separate self. Interacting with people still mutes it though. I also noticed that I have an expectation of feeling compassion towards the world that I do not feel, this is going back to the previous topic but I think it might be important.

Thanks,
B

[Florisness]

Hi Bettine,

Good day:) It seems that you haven't really nailed the quote function yet, but that's fine.

Good to see you busy with this! However I think I'll have to direct the focus a bit to looking instead of thinking.

The personal I is the one that is afraid, to strengthen the identity and confirm my separateness, this is a false fear because in reality I am everything already including the body....so my mind and body will not change, nothing is happening to it. It is not that I that dissolves into everything, it is the other I that is.

So have you looked already for this one that is separate? The one that lives life, that is afraid, that owns the body and mind, the one that will dissolve in the big I as you say? Can you physically look and tell me what you find and what comes up?

Answer what rings true for you, not what you've read or heard, but what feels true.
- Does the I make choices?
- Does it control anything?
- Does is own anything?
- Does it think?
- Does it live inside the body? (or is the body?)
- Does it feel, see, hear?

Floris

[BBD]

Hi Floris

Yes I am still having difficulty with the quote function, mostly because I can't see what it will look like till after I post, I will try a different technique today.

-

Does the I make choices?

When I think about a decision a lot it does feel like I made the decision. It happens very often though that I react without deliberating. When I really look at how I decide I often don't seem to make a choice, my feelings or circumstances create a chain reaction that lead to a choice. Now I'm not even sure that is true, maybe there is no chain and its not even related.

-

Does it control anything?

I do seem to have control over my actions in some cases, but mostly no there is the same drive just creating more.

-

Does is own anything?

These days I want to own less things because it seems to prevent me from being spontaneous. I also noticed that I buy many things out of a fear that I won't have enough yet I always have too much. the things I do seem to own, own me.

-

Does it think?

Thought mostly happens by itself, some useful thoughts are deliberate.

-

Does it live inside the body? (or is the body?)

I experience my body in a way I don't experience anything else in the world so it does feel more significant. But don't feel living is limited to the body.

- Does it feel, see, hear?

Pretty confident emotions don't belong to me, seeing and hearing is convincing though.

That's all for today i'm having trouble focusing and everything feels contradictory, nothing I say feels really right, I don't even feel I really know what to look at.

Thanks, I do appreciate it
B

[Florisness]

Hi Bettine,

Thank you for your answers. Really, you are doing good!

That's all for today i'm having trouble focusing and everything feels contradictory, nothing I say feels really right, I don't even feel I really know what to look at.

No problem, we'll just go over these things easily and simply.

Now we will go over all these points one by one, let's start with seeing, hearing, feeling.


Normally we say 'I see a house, I see a tree, etc.' so if this statement is true, there is something doing the function of seeing in some way. Let's explore this.

Please take some time for this and sit down with some kind of object before you, like a lamp or whatever. When you are ready ponder the following questions (and report back). Remember to report from your actual experience.
- In seeing, is there anything else than seeing?
- Can you find something that is doing the seeing?
- Can you find a seer?
- Is any effort made for seeing to be here?
- After having answered these above questions, what do you think of the following statement? 'I see a laptop'

Looking forward to your answers,
Floris

[BBD]

Hi Floris

-

In seeing, is there anything else than seeing?

There is awareness of seeing. But it is not the seeing.

-

Can you find something that is doing the seeing?

Seeing happens by itself, like breathing, but it can be directed by focusing on it.

-

Can you find a seer?

No not a seer just an angle. I don't understand why I am only aware of this one angle.

-

Is any effort made for seeing to be here?

No seeing happens by itself even when no attention is paid to it, a lot is seen that is not looked at.

-

After having answered these above questions, what do you think of the following statement? 'I see a laptop'

A laptop is noticed sounds more accurate.

I feel that there is something I am missing here to do with not really being able to get hold of it but there it ends.
Like I need to touch it too.

Thank you for the questions, and the considderation
B

[Florisness]

Good day!

There is awareness of seeing. But it is not the seeing

Can you find these as two separate things? That is, a awareness of seeing, and seeing?

Seeing happens by itself, like breathing, but it can be directed by focusing on it.

So have you looked yet at this director of seeing? Can you find it?

No not a seer just an angle. I don't understand why I am only aware of this one angle.

Sorry, not sure if I understand, do you mean the angle of seeing? Like there is no seeing behind the face, just in front of it?

A laptop is noticed sounds more accurate.

Agreed, but perhaps we can push it even further. Can you find the laptop and a noticing of the laptop as two things?

I feel that there is something I am missing here to do with not really being able to get hold of it but there it ends.
Like I need to touch it too.

Like if there is something that you overlook or need to understand?

F

[BBD]

Hi

Can you find these as two separate things? That is, a awareness of seeing, and seeing?

Well no awareness of seeing is seeing.

So have you looked yet at this director of seeing? Can you find it?

Still just awareness in the end.

Can you find the laptop and a noticing of the laptop as two things?

No only the noticing.

No not a seer just an angle. I don't understand why I am only aware of this one angle.
Sorry, not sure if I understand, do you mean the angle of seeing? Like there is no seeing behind the face, just in front of it?[/quote]

Like if there is something that you overlook or need to understand?

These go together and capture something I struggle with, and I realize that I shouldn't try to understand it intellectually but it bothers me all the same. By angle I mean one view, seeing is just seeing but why is it seen only from "me". That tells me there is only this one view, from "me" which is even more self centered because then I am the only one. Yet in this way it is possible to see that I also don't exist, I am the first to come and the last to leave so to speak. Even time is an invention when viewed this way. It is however still an intellectual concept and not a realization.

Here it becomes ridiculous because that makes you - me, helping myself to see that I don't exist, which is wildly egotistical and humbling at the same time and makes me cry.

Thanks
B

[Florisness]

Hello,

These go together and capture something I struggle with, and I realize that I shouldn't try to understand it intellectually but it bothers me all the same. By angle I mean one view, seeing is just seeing but why is it seen only from "me". That tells me there is only this one view, from "me" which is even more self centered because then I am the only one. Yet in this way it is possible to see that I also don't exist, I am the first to come and the last to leave so to speak. Even time is an invention when viewed this way. It is however still an intellectual concept and not a realization.

Here it becomes ridiculous because that makes you - me, helping myself to see that I don't exist, which is wildly egotistical and humbling at the same time and makes me cry.

Ah maybe I know what you mean now, but perhaps it's better if I leave that untouched (for now) and just continue the looking with you, as these questions tend to unwind themselves. Is this inquiry a struggle for you emotionally? Does fear still come up? Btw, don't worry about "me", I (who is not) likes to do this:)

Now that seeing is done, let's check feeling.
Please lay your hand on a table, close your eyes, and go to the experience that is called 'feeling a table'.
- Can you find a you or a hand doing the feeling?
- Can you find a table that is felt, or do you just find sensations?
- Is there a feeler and felt?
- Is there a difference between feeling and sensation?
- So what about the statement 'I feel a table'? Is it accurate?


Floris

[BBD]

Hi Floris

Is this inquiry a struggle for you emotionally?

Not actively, but I do find that I cry easily when I am contemplating these things a lot. Not happy, not sad, just emotion. After answering the other questions I will call it just a mounting sensation that leads to the crying. Perhaps I find the sensations overwhelming because I am focusing on it. This feeling inquiry actually triggers this response a lot.

Does fear still come up?

Yes but not very intensely and in an un-rooted sort of way, also mostly about background life stuff and not the inquiry. The fear is starting to feel unrelated to any actual happening though.

Please lay your hand on a table, close your eyes, and go to the experience that is called 'feeling a table'.
- Can you find a you or a hand doing the feeling?

No there is the sensation of feeling the table and the sensation of feeling my hand.
-

Can you find a table that is felt, or do you just find sensations?

Just sensations
-

Is there a feeler and felt?

No just feeling
-

Is there a difference between feeling and sensation?

no
-

So what about the statement 'I feel a table'? Is it accurate?

No a feeling occurs or there is feeling.

With the feeling I don't have the same isolating, just feeling from this hand experience, and the answers came quickly.

Thanks
B