What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I have heard through friends how important this journey has been for them on this forum. I am motivated by the idea of no -self. I felt a shift in my perception of the world when I first encountered the concept of no- self. I am theoretically driven by the idea, but then I find myself bogged down by habits and repetitive tendencies and suddenly the concept of 'me' takes over. I have come to Liberation Unleashed to go beyond theory and truly feel no self.
What are you looking for? What do you expect from this? I expect to be challenged. I expect to learn and develop what I think I know or break it apart entirely. I want to get closer to an acceptance of conditioned existence and learn to know that in my body in every moment.
What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry? I have been meditating and following buddhism over a number of years. My meditation routine has been improving more recently and that has deepened my ability to bring my practice more into my everyday experience.
How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? 10
Seeking a guide
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi RBL
My name is Xain, and I am a guide here at Liberation Unleashed.
Do you have a preferred name I can use in our discussion?
If your background is Buddhism, perhaps I can explain that the guidance offered here aims for you to attain 'Stream Entry' by breaking the first fetter of the Buddhist ten fetter model.
(The 2nd and 3rd fetters also break at the same time). You realise completely clearly that there has never been a 'real' self.
What expectations do you have about this process, or what such a realisation would bring or would mean?
This will be realised to be an illusion.
This is a guidance. It isn't about learning new things (although I will try to help you out as I go if you get stuck).
The guidance is essentially an extension of your own self-inquiry, but 'guided' so that you can examine specific and important areas that you might miss yourself.
How does that sound?
Feel free to ask any further questions you have about this process.
Xain ♥
My name is Xain, and I am a guide here at Liberation Unleashed.
Do you have a preferred name I can use in our discussion?
The focus developed through a meditational practise will be useful for the guidance here. We will be examining the difference between what you understand to be the case through your own beliefs, and what you can find out through your own introspection (and comparing the two).I have been meditating and following buddhism over a number of years. My meditation routine has been improving more recently and that has deepened my ability to bring my practice more into my everyday experience.
If your background is Buddhism, perhaps I can explain that the guidance offered here aims for you to attain 'Stream Entry' by breaking the first fetter of the Buddhist ten fetter model.
(The 2nd and 3rd fetters also break at the same time). You realise completely clearly that there has never been a 'real' self.
Just as a pointer, nothing changes in perception or experience with this realisation. You just realise that there is no inherent self here, and there has never been one.I felt a shift in my perception of the world when I first encountered the concept of no- self
What expectations do you have about this process, or what such a realisation would bring or would mean?
With what you've said, there is (perhaps) the belief that there is someone here right now learning, or feeling things within their body.I want to get closer to an acceptance of conditioned existence and learn to know that in my body in every moment.
This will be realised to be an illusion.
This is a guidance. It isn't about learning new things (although I will try to help you out as I go if you get stuck).
The guidance is essentially an extension of your own self-inquiry, but 'guided' so that you can examine specific and important areas that you might miss yourself.
How does that sound?
Feel free to ask any further questions you have about this process.
Xain ♥
Re: Seeking a guide
Hello Xain. Thank you for responding. You can call me Rosie.
I understand what you say - that there will be no shift in perception through this process.
You ask what my expectations are.. I am not certain I have any. I know that I don't want to be in so much of my 'me -ness.' I can see the construction of a 'me', that has been pieced together through conditions and experience. The likes, the dislikes, the habits etc are all reactions to conditions. And all of these things make up a sense of an identity that perhaps at times I am compelled to cling to..but am aware the 'I' is not there. I have a 3 year old son and a baby on the way and I live in close proximity with my parents. There is a clinging to a construction of relationships. This clinging needs to be released.
I don't have questions at this stage about the process. I will try to answer your questions as they come.
Thank you.
I understand what you say - that there will be no shift in perception through this process.
You ask what my expectations are.. I am not certain I have any. I know that I don't want to be in so much of my 'me -ness.' I can see the construction of a 'me', that has been pieced together through conditions and experience. The likes, the dislikes, the habits etc are all reactions to conditions. And all of these things make up a sense of an identity that perhaps at times I am compelled to cling to..but am aware the 'I' is not there. I have a 3 year old son and a baby on the way and I live in close proximity with my parents. There is a clinging to a construction of relationships. This clinging needs to be released.
I don't have questions at this stage about the process. I will try to answer your questions as they come.
Thank you.
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Xain
Apologies. I inadvertantly logged on in my partners username Tbarnes. I will make sure this doesn't happpen again.
My response was as follows
Hello Xain. Thank you for responding. You can call me Rosie.
I understand what you say - that there will be no shift in perception through this process.
You ask what my expectations are.. I am not certain I have any. I know that I don't want to be in so much of my 'me -ness.' I can see the construction of a 'me', that has been pieced together through conditions and experience. The likes, the dislikes, the habits etc are all reactions to conditions. And all of these things make up a sense of an identity that perhaps at times I am compelled to cling to..but am aware the 'I' is not there. I have a 3 year old son and a baby on the way and I live in close proximity with my parents. There is a clinging to a construction of relationships. This clinging needs to be released.
I don't have questions at this stage about the process. I will try to answer your questions as they come.
Thank you.
Apologies. I inadvertantly logged on in my partners username Tbarnes. I will make sure this doesn't happpen again.
My response was as follows
Hello Xain. Thank you for responding. You can call me Rosie.
I understand what you say - that there will be no shift in perception through this process.
You ask what my expectations are.. I am not certain I have any. I know that I don't want to be in so much of my 'me -ness.' I can see the construction of a 'me', that has been pieced together through conditions and experience. The likes, the dislikes, the habits etc are all reactions to conditions. And all of these things make up a sense of an identity that perhaps at times I am compelled to cling to..but am aware the 'I' is not there. I have a 3 year old son and a baby on the way and I live in close proximity with my parents. There is a clinging to a construction of relationships. This clinging needs to be released.
I don't have questions at this stage about the process. I will try to answer your questions as they come.
Thank you.
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Rosie
Interesting that both you and your partner and doing the enquiry.
It might be beneficial in as much as you can discuss together where you are in the path and the realisations that you have made; Particularly if your partners guide is using a different approach to the one I will use.
If it is realised that 'I' is just an illusion, what good are these expectations . . . to an Illusion?
It is also important to put aside all non-dual, religious and scientific ideas and approach this guidance from simple principles.
I am directly addressing your current deeply held beliefs about yourself, and not what you've been told by other people / teachers or have read in a book.
The likelihood is that you will see clearly what the clinging is based upon. However, nothing will change like you will lose your connection (love) with parents, family, children etc
Further requests:
1) Please write at least once per day - This helps to keep the momentum up. If you know you will not be able to respond for a time, just let me know beforehand - I will try to do the same.
2) Ensure you read the FAQ; In particular the section 'What LU is not'
The link here: http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/
Ready?
Xain ♥
Interesting that both you and your partner and doing the enquiry.
It might be beneficial in as much as you can discuss together where you are in the path and the realisations that you have made; Particularly if your partners guide is using a different approach to the one I will use.
Good. It is important at this early stage for me to tell you to drop your expectations about 'what life will be like afterwards' or your will to try to attain some state or achievement that you've heard other people have gained. Why? Because these expectations will all have an 'I' component. 'I will live in peace', 'I will have negative thoughts stop', 'I will become as enlightened being' etcI understand what you say - that there will be no shift in perception through this process.
If it is realised that 'I' is just an illusion, what good are these expectations . . . to an Illusion?
It is also important to put aside all non-dual, religious and scientific ideas and approach this guidance from simple principles.
I am directly addressing your current deeply held beliefs about yourself, and not what you've been told by other people / teachers or have read in a book.
I am unsure of exactly what you are pointing to here.There is a clinging to a construction of relationships. This clinging needs to be released.
The likelihood is that you will see clearly what the clinging is based upon. However, nothing will change like you will lose your connection (love) with parents, family, children etc
Further requests:
1) Please write at least once per day - This helps to keep the momentum up. If you know you will not be able to respond for a time, just let me know beforehand - I will try to do the same.
2) Ensure you read the FAQ; In particular the section 'What LU is not'
The link here: http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/
Ready?
Xain ♥
Re: Seeking a guide
Yes I am ready. I have read the FAQ.
You said ; The likelihood is that you will see clearly what the clinging is based upon. However, nothing will change like you will lose your connection (love) with parents, family, children etc.
I recognise nothing will change.. but will see the story.
Thank you
Rosie
You said ; The likelihood is that you will see clearly what the clinging is based upon. However, nothing will change like you will lose your connection (love) with parents, family, children etc.
I recognise nothing will change.. but will see the story.
Thank you
Rosie
Re: Seeking a guide
Ok Rosie, let's begin by simply addressing 'I'.
What does the word 'I' point to - What is your honest belief at this present time in very simple terms.
For example, do you believe that 'I am looking at a screen right now, and I am reading words off the screen'.
So perhaps 'I' operates the senses.
Perhaps 'I' is the body and the body is feeling the pressure of a seat or other things against it right now.
Maybe 'I' is hearing things in the room right now, or sounds from outside.
Perhaps 'I' has the ability to control the body, make the limbs move / the muscles operate / chooses what the body focusses on.
Perhaps 'I' has choice and free-will, like 'I chose to begin this guidance at LU' and 'I will choose what to reply to this message'.
Perhaps 'I' also is linked to mind and thoughts. 'I think thoughts', 'I have ideas about what is going on' etc
Those are a few basic examples.
Do they ring true?
Give me your own perspective on what you currently believe 'I' is, and what it is responsible for.
Xain ♥
What does the word 'I' point to - What is your honest belief at this present time in very simple terms.
For example, do you believe that 'I am looking at a screen right now, and I am reading words off the screen'.
So perhaps 'I' operates the senses.
Perhaps 'I' is the body and the body is feeling the pressure of a seat or other things against it right now.
Maybe 'I' is hearing things in the room right now, or sounds from outside.
Perhaps 'I' has the ability to control the body, make the limbs move / the muscles operate / chooses what the body focusses on.
Perhaps 'I' has choice and free-will, like 'I chose to begin this guidance at LU' and 'I will choose what to reply to this message'.
Perhaps 'I' also is linked to mind and thoughts. 'I think thoughts', 'I have ideas about what is going on' etc
Those are a few basic examples.
Do they ring true?
Give me your own perspective on what you currently believe 'I' is, and what it is responsible for.
Xain ♥
Re: Seeking a guide
I believe 'I' is an experience of sensations. An external object or force interacts with the object that is 'me' and a sensation occurs. There is contact with keys on a computer and there is sensation. I guess an 'I' of some form experiences that and is now communicating that experience. But now 'I' am trying to reflect on what the 'I' is..which gets confusing in the more reflexive it becomes. So by trying to stay in the moment...There are sounds, there is contact with computer keys, the bed, there is light entering the eyes, colour is being reflected, there are sensations in the gut, there is stiffness in muscles, there is an assemblage of memories that make up a 'history' or story that shape what happens next. There is an assemblage which is easy and comforting to call 'I'. If the heart stopped now there would be nothing. If part of the brain shut down now there would become a different assemblage and the story would change.
You mention choice and free will. ..There is reaction to stimulus. Is it choice? I guess in the need to function on an everyday level it could be said to be choice. But an 'I' cannot function from a central point of decision making if the 'I' is formed of a set of conditions changing constantly. On an everyday-need-to-function level, 'I' am continuously making decisions that are based on what 'I' have done previously. But those decisions are reactions to conditions. If those conditions change, the outcome changes.
'I' am sitting on my bed...but that is not true. This body is positioned on this bed and is positioned in reaction to the shape of the mattress, the lay of the pillows, the balance of the lap top, which are all in relationship to the flatness of the floor and positioning of the walls. The body is in relationship to the objects around it. The body is an extension of those objects as the objects are an extension of it. The pathways in the carpet have been worn down by the body walking because of the placement of the furniture, not by the choice of the body. The position of my body as it stands and brushes its teeth is based on the height of the sink and the position of the mirror. It is not choice.
The 'I' is sitting here thinking thoughts. This is where it feels comforting to think 'I'. But I guess those thoughts are reaction to stimulus. The conditions that lead me to LU was through communicating with people around me. The 'I' can reflect on that as the brain is able to store memory. The brain functions based on conditions. This brain does not speak spanish, or is very good at left and right, and has a tendency to be more visual than sound based. That has been my conditions.
I will keep pondering.
Thank you.
Rosie
You mention choice and free will. ..There is reaction to stimulus. Is it choice? I guess in the need to function on an everyday level it could be said to be choice. But an 'I' cannot function from a central point of decision making if the 'I' is formed of a set of conditions changing constantly. On an everyday-need-to-function level, 'I' am continuously making decisions that are based on what 'I' have done previously. But those decisions are reactions to conditions. If those conditions change, the outcome changes.
'I' am sitting on my bed...but that is not true. This body is positioned on this bed and is positioned in reaction to the shape of the mattress, the lay of the pillows, the balance of the lap top, which are all in relationship to the flatness of the floor and positioning of the walls. The body is in relationship to the objects around it. The body is an extension of those objects as the objects are an extension of it. The pathways in the carpet have been worn down by the body walking because of the placement of the furniture, not by the choice of the body. The position of my body as it stands and brushes its teeth is based on the height of the sink and the position of the mirror. It is not choice.
The 'I' is sitting here thinking thoughts. This is where it feels comforting to think 'I'. But I guess those thoughts are reaction to stimulus. The conditions that lead me to LU was through communicating with people around me. The 'I' can reflect on that as the brain is able to store memory. The brain functions based on conditions. This brain does not speak spanish, or is very good at left and right, and has a tendency to be more visual than sound based. That has been my conditions.
I will keep pondering.
Thank you.
Rosie
Re: Seeking a guide
So here the 'I' is 'the body' - You mention 'external objects' and that I take to mean specifically external to the body.I believe 'I' is an experience of sensations. An external object or force interacts with the object that is 'me' and a sensation occurs.
The body object experiences the sensation when it is in contact with another object (which is not, and is external to itself).
Ok. Good - There is an 'I' that has the experience, and an 'I' that is communicating that experience.I guess an 'I' of some form experiences that and is now communicating that experience.
What experiences do you have your heart stopping or part of the brain shutting down?If the heart stopped now there would be nothing. If part of the brain shut down now there would become a different assemblage and the story would change.
If you have not experienced these things, then surely what you are writing comes from Scientific or Medical knowledge.
Whilst I would not suggest what you are saying is incorrect, I will suggest to you that in honesty . . . these are only beliefs you have.
It is only an assumption.
Well, I am looking for your own beliefs about such things - In simple form.You mention choice and free will. ..There is reaction to stimulus. Is it choice?
Do you believe that you have free-will or not? Just a yes or no would do - Deep intellectual analysis is not needed here, as I am asking very simply 'what you believe'.
If you TRULY believe that there is no free-will, it should be completely clear that what you type in reply to my post has no choice involved with it whatsoever . . . indeed, that there isn't even a choice to read the next sentence or not.
What do you TRULY BELIEVE?
In my guidance, there is no need to put 'I' in quotes. Just talk in normal language.'I' am continuously making decisions that are based on what 'I' have done previously.
Do you believe there is an 'I' (A Rosie) that has done things in the past? If it helps, just a Yes or No would do.
Do you believe there is an 'I' (A Rosie) that acts on past experiences and makes decisions accordingly?
Ok, Good. There is an 'I' that thinks thoughts.The 'I' is sitting here thinking thoughts. This is where it feels comforting to think 'I'.
What experience do you have of a brain incapable of speaking Spanish? Or of a Brain that is conditioned in a certain way?The brain functions based on conditions. This brain does not speak Spanish, or is very good at left and right, and has a tendency to be more visual than sound based. That has been my conditions.
Again, if you have not experienced these things, then surely what you are writing comes from Scientific or Medical knowledge.
Whilst I would not suggest what you are saying is incorrect, I will suggest to you that in honesty . . . these are only beliefs you have.
They are only assumptions.
Right now can you locate a brain that you can directly describe and speak about the qualities that it has inside it, and what it does?
In this guidance, it is ESSENTIAL for you to notice the difference between assumptions that are being made, and what you can actually verify for yourself . . . prove for yourself right now in the immediate moment.
Xain ♥
Re: Seeking a guide
Yes Yes I see I am making an assumption. I have no idea what would would happen if my heart stopped. I only know that it is beating. But then I don't even know that... I just feel a beating...I don't know that its my heart because I can't see it. I am assuming that rhythmic thing is a heart coz of what I've been told.What experiences do you have your heart stopping or part of the brain shutting down?.
In regards to free will. Well I just don't know... I could say I am choosing what I am writing at this moment. It certainly feels like choice. So in this second it is free will. But choice and free will don't feel like words that I can immediately experience. I can experience my body taking actions and i am aware of my thoughts. But maybe it isn't useful right now to pick this apart. Sorry Xain I seem to be obsessed with analysing and that is not what you're asking me to do.
Yes, right now there feels like a me that has history and thoughts.
Right now can you locate a brain that you can directly describe and speak about the qualities that it has inside it, and what it does?
Right now I am aware of my thoughts.
Re: Seeking a guide
Ok I am stuck on this choice thing.
I feel there is choice. I feel there are thoughts. I want to pull that apart and bring in what I've read or what I've been told and question what choice means. I think choice is based on conditions and if conditions change that choice changes. But right now there is choosing to type. So there is choice.
I don't know what my brain is capable of. I only know the sensations now.
I feel there is choice. I feel there are thoughts. I want to pull that apart and bring in what I've read or what I've been told and question what choice means. I think choice is based on conditions and if conditions change that choice changes. But right now there is choosing to type. So there is choice.
I don't know what my brain is capable of. I only know the sensations now.
Re: Seeking a guide
That's what I need. More about what appears to be true. No analysis needed.It certainly feels like choice. So in this second it is free will.
But right now there is choosing to type. So there is choice.
So there appears to be choice / free-will. Good.
No problem. In fact, noticing that the answers are coming from analysis (rather than anything else) is important here.Sorry Xain I seem to be obsessed with analysing and that is not what you're asking me to do.
Don't worry too much about it. It's early days.
We'll pick it apart next. Just for now, I am getting you to focus on what you believe to be true.I can experience my body taking actions and i am aware of my thoughts. But maybe it isn't useful right now to pick this apart.
Be honest . . . without being told all about a brain, would you even know you had one?I don't know what my brain is capable of.
Without being told what a brain was responsible for, would you even know that?
Sure, we can talk all about 'what a brain does' - But again, be honest . . . have you ever witnessed a brain doing anything?
You mention 'thoughts' - But what is the link between 'brain' and 'thoughts' other than a BELIEF that they are linked in some way.
Thoughts might appear, sure - But have you ever witnessed your brain creating thoughts? How would such a thing even be possible?
Could you see into your own head and see little thoughts being generated there?
Consider this, and then we'll begin the guiding 'proper'.
Xain ♥
Re: Seeking a guide
When I slow down and really stay with what is now...then yes. Thoughts arise and pass away and that is all I know. Other than physical sensations going on in the body, there is nothing else I can say is true.
I do see what you are saying.
Rosie
I do see what you are saying.
Rosie
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi again Rosie
I tend to be a little more thorough (pedantic maybe) than the other guides.
I will be examining your beliefs about anything you consider separate that might be responsible for things, be it a brain, a person, a body or an 'I'.
Let's begin the guidance 'proper'.
First of all I will examine all of the senses one by one.
In each case, please try to focus only on the one sense we are examining and try not to drift off into the other senses, or answer from speculation about what the right answer is or not. Just answer from what appears clear from that one sense.
Let us begin with 'SEEING'.
This is a very simple exercise to begin with.
This is with eyes closed.
I am going to refer to what is being seen with eyes closed as 'Blackness', although there might be a red-dim glow if you are facing a bright light, or there may be sparkles or clouds from nerves or whatever. Don't worry about all that. I'm simply going to refer to it as 'Blackness'.
Close your eyes.
Answer from what you can find by doing the exercise.
1) Just confirm that all that can be found in 'seeing' is 'blackness' as I mentioned. Is that right?
2) In 'seeing', can an activity called 'seeing' be found to be taking place? Or is there just 'blackness'?
3) In 'seeing', can you find an 'I', a brain, a person, a body, a pair of eyes etc DOING the seeing? Or is the only thing you can find 'blackness'?
What do you find?
Xain ♥
I tend to be a little more thorough (pedantic maybe) than the other guides.
I will be examining your beliefs about anything you consider separate that might be responsible for things, be it a brain, a person, a body or an 'I'.
Let's begin the guidance 'proper'.
First of all I will examine all of the senses one by one.
In each case, please try to focus only on the one sense we are examining and try not to drift off into the other senses, or answer from speculation about what the right answer is or not. Just answer from what appears clear from that one sense.
Let us begin with 'SEEING'.
This is a very simple exercise to begin with.
This is with eyes closed.
I am going to refer to what is being seen with eyes closed as 'Blackness', although there might be a red-dim glow if you are facing a bright light, or there may be sparkles or clouds from nerves or whatever. Don't worry about all that. I'm simply going to refer to it as 'Blackness'.
Close your eyes.
Answer from what you can find by doing the exercise.
1) Just confirm that all that can be found in 'seeing' is 'blackness' as I mentioned. Is that right?
2) In 'seeing', can an activity called 'seeing' be found to be taking place? Or is there just 'blackness'?
3) In 'seeing', can you find an 'I', a brain, a person, a body, a pair of eyes etc DOING the seeing? Or is the only thing you can find 'blackness'?
What do you find?
Xain ♥
Re: Seeking a guide
Hi Xain
1) Yes, All I can experience in 'seeing' is blackness.
2) I can't find seeing taking place. I am experiencing blackness. That is all I know.
3) I can only find blackness. Thoughts arise and start to interpret what the body is doing...I feel quickly tricked by this into thinking and labeling. But in the experience of 'seeing' with closed eyes; through this sense there is only blackness. I cannot find the eyes, the body, the I, the brain in this. Just blackness.
This is a short post but it feels like enough right now. If elaboration is needed I am happy to go on.
Rosie x
1) Yes, All I can experience in 'seeing' is blackness.
2) I can't find seeing taking place. I am experiencing blackness. That is all I know.
3) I can only find blackness. Thoughts arise and start to interpret what the body is doing...I feel quickly tricked by this into thinking and labeling. But in the experience of 'seeing' with closed eyes; through this sense there is only blackness. I cannot find the eyes, the body, the I, the brain in this. Just blackness.
This is a short post but it feels like enough right now. If elaboration is needed I am happy to go on.
Rosie x
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