Confidence

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seihyun
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Confidence

Postby seihyun » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:16 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
Ever since I was introduced to non-duality, I have been reading a lot of spirituality books as well as watching a lot of videos on the matter on Youtube.

Recently a friend referred me to LU, originally I wasn't intending to sign up and was satisfied with just reading the quotes app and gateless gatecrashers. However I thought it might be a good idea to try it out with a guide just to make sure I haven't missed anything, and potentially look to helping others out with any experiences that I gain here.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I feel like I understand that there is no self, and at the moment I would be more confident in saying that "there is no self" over "there is a self"
However I would like absolute confidence in seeing that there is no self.
If possible to achieve here, I would also like the ability even in stressful situations to be able to see through the illusion of self.
What I expect to get from this is a shift in perspective.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I practice meditation on a regular basis and feel amazing bliss when resting my mind in pure awareness. I hope that having a firmer understanding of the illusion of separation will help me to dispel any clinging that I have to my ego in daily practices.

In the past I have experimented with psychedelics and feel that the only logical explanation for my experiences are those with a non-dual perspective.

I have read a few books on spirituality as well as watched a lot of videos, particularly regarding advaita, taoism, zen and tibetan buddhism.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 11

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Florisness
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Re: Confidence

Postby Florisness » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:56 pm

Hello seihun,

I'd be happy to guide you, are you okay with that?
If you are than please confirm that you have read the Liberation Unleashed rules and introduction. You have read the gateless gatecrashers book, that is great. Than I hope you know that what we do here is not to get an intellectual understanding, but that we look in our actual experience (AE) so that you'll clearly see that there is no self at all and never was.

I'd ask of you to write each day, to keep up the momentum and also to be 100% honest.

If you agree, than we can start.
How can I call you?


Floris

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seihyun
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Re: Confidence

Postby seihyun » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:24 pm

Hi Floris,

Yes I would also be happy for you to guide me.
I have read the rules and introduction, and understand that I must look in AE.

You can call me seihyun.

Thank you for taking the time and offering to guide me. Very much appreciate it.



Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

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Florisness
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Re: Confidence

Postby Florisness » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:36 pm

Great!
Thank you for taking the time and offering to guide me. Very much appreciate it.
No problem, I like doing it, besides I learn from it too:)

Please learn to use the qoute function: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
Please put aside all ideas you may have gathered about this: non-dual, scientific, etc. Answer from what appears true for you.

Its good if we start with expectations, since they tend to distract us from simple looking but also because they are usually unrealistic.
If possible to achieve here, I would also like the ability even in stressful situations to be able to see through the illusion of self.
This seeing through the self is a one time seeing thing which can't be unseen. However even after seeing doubts can still pop up, forgetting that there is no I can occur, etc. It's more like a start.
I hope that having a firmer understanding of the illusion of separation will help me to dispel any clinging that I have to my ego in daily practices.
It seems that you thought that this seeing through the self is an intellectual thing, that becoming more sure that there is no self will dissolve identification, however this is not the case. As mentioned before we will use our experience. This seeing through the illusion of a self definitely doesn't get rid of all identification, but it's a nice start to build from.

any more expectations? Are you willing to set them aside?:)

Floris

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seihyun
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Re: Confidence

Postby seihyun » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 am

any more expectations? Are you willing to set them aside?:)
No more expectations then, or at least I will try not to have any :)
I am willing to set aside all previous knowledge and try to only respond from AE
Look forward to working with you!

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Florisness
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Re: Confidence

Postby Florisness » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:40 am

Hi seihyun,

That's all great! Let's get going.

Write what appears true for you, not what you believe or read somewhere, but what you feel is true.

What do you consider as 'I'?
Does 'I' see this screen? Does 'I' read these words?
Is 'I' controlling the body? Or perhaps it even is the body?
Does this 'I' make choices? Does it think?

What seems true for you, what is 'I'? You can also give a rant about it

Looking forward to your answers
Floris

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seihyun
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Re: Confidence

Postby seihyun » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:15 pm

Hi Floris,
What do you consider as 'I'?
When focusing on 'I' there is a sensation. The sensation of 'I'. The sensation arises following the thought or focus on the 'I'. Currently I feel that sensation mostly in my chest, however I sometimes feel it behind the eyes.
Does 'I' see this screen? Does 'I' read these words?
When I look for what is seeing the screen and focus my awareness to whatever is seeing, there is nothing. When I look for what is reading these words, other than thoughts corresponding to the words, there is nothing.
Is 'I' controlling the body? Or perhaps it even is the body?
When I look at the seemingly deliberate movement of my body when making any action I feel a sense of agency, a feeling of being able to control an action. This would be different from the automatic actions that seem to go on within my body such as my breathing. When I really look for an 'I' that is controlling an action there is nothing, behind the movement of my hand there is nothing.
As I draw attention to my breathing, it seems that only when I am aware of an action can my mind lay claim to being in control.
Does this 'I' make choices? Does it think?
Sometimes thoughts come before a choice sometimes after a choice. The thoughts before a choice seem to help me decide which choice to choose, while the thoughts following an action seem to take ownership of a choice and judge whether that choice was good or bad.
What seems true for you, what is 'I'? You can also give a rant about it
'I' seems to be a label that points to my self, however whenever I closely look at what that self is there is really nothing there to call 'I'. The sensation of 'I' that I feel when I focus on the it is only present when I am focusing on it, however without a label there seems to be no indication that the sensation is really 'I'.
When I'm feeling highly stressed at any moment I seem to forget that this 'I' is an illusion, thoughts keep arising drawing my attention to all my apparent problems. This constant stream of thoughts seems to successfully distract me into identifying completely with my stress and anxiety. I feel that in these situations there must be something I'm missing if I can completely forget how to see past the illusion of self.


-Seihyun

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Florisness
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Re: Confidence

Postby Florisness » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:00 pm

Seihyun,

That's great, good work! Also I would like to say that your answers can't be right of false, it just tells me which sticking points you might have, which tells me where to go next. We'll look into them one by one.
When focusing on 'I' there is a sensation. The sensation of 'I'. The sensation arises following the thought or focus on the 'I'. Currently I feel that sensation mostly in my chest, however I sometimes feel it behind the eyes.
Okay, good. It's enough to just notice this, it doesn't need to dissolve.
When I look for what is seeing the screen and focus my awareness to whatever is seeing, there is nothing. When I look for what is reading these words, other than thoughts corresponding to the words, there is nothing.
Let's start here, with the commonly held belief that 'I' perceives.
Yes you are right, there is nothing to be found doing the seeing, yet we normally say 'I see a screen', although when we look for this 'I' that should be seeing the screen, we don't find anything!
But let's be sure before moving on:
So when we go to the experience we call seeing, can you find anything else other than seeing (or what is seen)?
Is there anything in our experience doing the function called seeing?
So after looking into this, what do you make of this statement: 'I see a screen'?
You could also do this for 'hearing' after you're done with seeing
When I'm feeling highly stressed at any moment I seem to forget that this 'I' is an illusion, thoughts keep arising drawing my attention to all my apparent problems. This constant stream of thoughts seems to successfully distract me into identifying completely with my stress and anxiety. I feel that in these situations there must be something I'm missing if I can completely forget how to see past the illusion of self.
Perhaps because you believe these problems are 'my problems' and 'my stress and anxiety'? Problems can only be seen as such when they are believed to belong to something.

Floris

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seihyun
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Re: Confidence

Postby seihyun » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:04 am

So when we go to the experience we call seeing, can you find anything else other than seeing (or what is seen)?
All there is, is awareness of seeing.
Is there anything in our experience doing the function called seeing?
When looking in my experiemce for what is doing the seeing I find nothing. There is nothing doing the seeing, seeing is just happening.
So after looking into this, what do you make of this statement: 'I see a screen'?
The statement seems to suggest there is a separate I doing the seeing of the screen. But upon inspection there is no I that is doing the seeing, there is only a screen being seen. I think the statement holds usefulness as far as a tool for communication, otherwise I feel that the statement is somewhat hollow.
You could also do this for 'hearing' after you're done with seeing
When searching for what is hearing, there is nothing doing the hearing that can be found. Hearing, like seeing, just seems to happen.

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Florisness
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Re: Confidence

Postby Florisness » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:28 pm

Hello:)
All there is, is awareness of seeing.
Can you find a difference between awareness and seeing?
The statement seems to suggest there is a separate I doing the seeing of the screen. But upon inspection there is no I that is doing the seeing, there is only a screen being seen. I think the statement holds usefulness as far as a tool for communication, otherwise I feel that the statement is somewhat hollow.
Yes exactly, excellent. The word 'I' in 'I see a ...' doesn't point to anything in our experience. Although we can still use the word for communication purposes.

Okay, lastly let's move on to feeling, this one can be a bit trickier as thoughts try to make images out of our actual experience. As with seeing and hearing, we will look for an 'I' that is supposed to be involved in feeling.
Can you lay your hand on a table, close your eyes and go to the experience we call 'feeling a table'.
Then ponder these questions, keep looking if you are not sure:
- Can you find a hand or a table, or can you only find sensations?
- Is there a difference between feeling and sensation?
- Can you find something that is doing the feeling? thoughts might come up saying 'the hand feels' but look closely.
If you are clear on those, what do you think of the statement 'I feel a table'?
You could look into smelling and tasting, but it's not really necessary.


Looking forward to your responses!

Floris

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seihyun
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Re: Confidence

Postby seihyun » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:58 am

Can you find a difference between awareness and seeing?
I suppose awareness is not limited to only seeing, otherwise when my awareness is completely with seeing then there is no difference.
- Can you find a hand or a table, or can you only find sensations?
I notice that my mind constantly labels the sensations as hand, wooden table, pressure, etc.
When looking closely, past the labels, I find only sensations.
- Is there a difference between feeling and sensation?
I'm not sure, I always thought they were the same thing.
- Can you find something that is doing the feeling? thoughts might come up saying 'the hand feels' but look closely.
Behind the labels that arise, there is only sensations, nothing that I can find that is doing the feeling.
If you are clear on those, what do you think of the statement 'I feel a table'?
The statement sounds like the thoughts that arise to take ownership of an experience, just a story being told.

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Florisness
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Re: Confidence

Postby Florisness » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:13 pm

Thank you for keep looking in AE, instead of thinking.
I'm not sure, I always thought they were the same thing.
Yes there are, please be sure though.

Okay, let's move on. Earlier you stated the following:
Does this 'I' make choices? Does it think?
Sometimes thoughts come before a choice sometimes after a choice. The thoughts before a choice seem to help me decide which choice to choose, while the thoughts following an action seem to take ownership of a choice and judge whether that choice was good or bad.
What you seem to be saying here is that there are thoughts that just seem to happen, but that there also is a decider (or decision) that is separate from thought. You might have already looked into thoughts/thinking when you read the gateless gatecrashers, but I need to be sure that you didn't miss anything.

Ponder the following questions, sitting down and set some time apart or whatever suits you.
-Do you decide which thoughts come up?
-Do you do anything to make one come up?
-Are thoughts and thinking different "things"?
-Are a thought and a decision different "things"? (keep looking at AE)
-Can you find a decider that is not a thought?
-Can a thought think?
-Can you find a controller/thinker/whatever that is doing the function thinking?
-Any control over what comes up?

Hope you can handle all the questions!
Floris

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seihyun
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Re: Confidence

Postby seihyun » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:38 pm

-Do you decide which thoughts come up?
I feel agency over thoughts when I am aware of my thoughts, however when I look closely at this "control" it just seems to be more thoughts about thoughts. I cannot find anything that is controlling thoughts, thoughts just seem to arise by themselves and sometimes about themselves.
-Do you do anything to make one come up?
It feels that way at times, but looking closely thoughts just arise on their own.
-Are thoughts and thinking different "things"?
Thoughts are dependent on the process of thinking - or at least I thought so. What is the process of thinking? I can't find it in AE, thoughts just happen, thinking just happens, they just happen together. In actual experience I guess they are the same thing.
-Are a thought and a decision different "things"? (keep looking at AE)
"Decisions" seem to be made of thoughts, things happen all the time often without any apparent decision being made. When a decision is made then, they seem always to be made of thoughts.
-Can you find a decider that is not a thought?
No, when I look for the decider of thoughts, I cannot find one.
-Can a thought think?
I can think about thinking? But that is just a thought about thought, and not thought thinking. No thoughts can think.
-Can you find a controller/thinker/whatever that is doing the function thinking?
When looking in AE I cannot find the thinker or controller of my thoughts.
-Any control over what comes up?
Only thoughts of control.


Sorry for the late response
-Seihyun

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Florisness
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Re: Confidence

Postby Florisness » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:00 pm

Sorry I'll reply tomorrow

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Florisness
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Re: Confidence

Postby Florisness » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:45 pm

Never mind my previous post.

Before we go on to bodily movement, the belief 'I control the body', let's reflect for a moment.

We have been looking for an I which is supposed to exist.
To recap:
No I could be found doing seeing, seeing just seems to happen.
No I could be found doing hearing, hearing just seems to happen.
No I could be found doing feeling, feeling just seems to happen.
No I could be found doing thinking, thinking just seems to happen.
We haven't found an I so far.
I feel agency over thoughts when I am aware of my thoughts, however when I look closely at this "control" it just seems to be more thoughts about thoughts. I cannot find anything that is controlling thoughts, thoughts just seem to arise by themselves and sometimes about themselves.
The first line 'I feel agency over thoughts when I am aware of my thought'. A lot of I there!

In your experience, your AE, is there any I? What if experience could speak, what would it say?
Do you think there is an I somewhere outside of thinking there is?


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