Surrender

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Colour
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Surrender

Postby Colour » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:59 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
Exhaustion from searching. Now I am in trouble as I have only written 26 characters and tried to submit. Those initial three words sum up the reason why I have ended up here right now. I am exhausted. I feel I have tried every angle to realize there is no separate self. But still I do not see this with all my being. I get it intellectually, as another belief in my bag of millions of beliefs! But so what?

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
An end to searching. A little peace despite events of life. I would love an end to suffering. The suffering of believing my thoughts. I really think I need to surrender but I have no idea how to do that. Really, no idea. :(

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
TM when I was 16 and then have read thousands of books and remained very " mental" in that I tend to stay in my thoughts. I have followed Gurus and been disenchanted with them rather quickly. I have read about and had Skype sessions with many non dual teachers. Been in self enquiry e-mail groups with women for a few years. My search was really intensified about seven years ago when I accidentally found the TAT Foundation, whilst searching for Tapas Acupressure Technique. I would say that this group have been a core foundation for me.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 11

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Surrender

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:38 pm

Hi colour, my name is Hannah and I will be happy to dialogue with you here.

what name would you like to use here, colour or something else?

what time zone are you in? I am UK GMT+1
Exhaustion from searching.
sometimes the conceptual side of things needs to wear itself out enough to be ready for insight. Sometimes that can take a while. it took over 10 years here!
I get it intellectually, as another belief in my bag of millions of beliefs! But so what?
Great to see this. Yes, taking no self on as another belief is not seeing it experientially.
I will do my best to help you be clear how to look experientially. However, it seems for a long time there may have been many fears and expectations getting in the way here.

Are you tired enough yet to lay them bare and let me help you to let go of them?
I would love an end to suffering. The suffering of believing my thoughts. I really think I need to surrender but I have no idea how to do that. Really, no idea. :(
This process is only the first step really starting to see how suffering arises, and therefore it losing it's 'power'. But everything has to start somewhere.
I have followed Gurus and been disenchanted with them rather quickly.
What led to you becoming disenchanted? Did you believe the guru had a specialness that you did not and then they did or said something that undermined that?
I am not a guru. There is still suffering here, thoughts are still believed. I guide because I have been where you are, and seeing what is being pointed to at LU moved things forward and resolved some things that needed resolving, but it is obvious it only catalysed a rediness to see that could not have been given or transmitted from 'externally'.
Is that enough for you?

because you seem to have done alot of this sort of inquiry in the past, i want you simply to sit quietly and look for the self, the i and describe it to me. I also want you to in as much detail describe exactly how and what is going on when i ask you to do that, where and how is that being looked for?

if it helps i want you specifically to look for 'a surrenderer' ,i.e the self, the entity that can actively 'do' surrendering.

This may help me to understand where things haven't 'clicked' before so we can address that together.

Also please can you write me as honest a paragraph as you can finishing this statement.

When no self is actually seen then...

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Colour
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Re: Surrender

Postby Colour » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:52 pm

Hi Hannah,

Thanks so much for replying. I am actually not sure how to post and embed your questions at the same time. Not used to forum chatting ;)
I would prefer to be called Louise but that seemed to already be taken, and Colour was one of my last options haha.
I am in Australia so I have only received your message this morning and have to go to work. I will reply tonight.

Thanks Again
Louise

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Colour
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Re: Surrender

Postby Colour » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:39 am

Hi Hannah,

Yes, you are right. For many years fears and expectations seem to have been in my way of seeing clearly what is actually here.
And yes, I am very tired and ready to lay them bare for you to help me let go of them.
Re. The guru phase in my life. I loved the way the chanting took me out of my head and seemed to make me expansive. The disenchantment was not really about the person out the front on stage, but rather, the personalities involved in the running of the organisation.

So I sat quietly and looked for the self. This is what happened:
I feel a pulling back 'inside' like the focus of awareness moves from objects in the room and looks back towards my head or body. Then there is a feeling of expectation that I should find something, anything, a "sign" that this nothing I find is IT!
Then there is contraction in the jaw and throat. Impatience. Thoughts arise...Why can't I get this? Who is asking that? No answer. Stillness. Anger arises and thought, " How many times must I do this and never solve the mystery?"
Stand up.


When no self is actually seen, then there are an abundance of thoughts that arise. (Is this it then? It can't be. It must be more peaceful than this. No, it definitely can't just be this nothingness. There must be another nothingness. A loving nothingness. This is not loving, it is nothing. Blank. Empty. Hollow. Boring.
Fear arises. What if this is really what I have been searching for, for over 40 years? I think it might be. Shit, this is not good. It will be o.k if it is. Everyone who has found the nothing that is everything, prefers it to when they didn't know. So they say. Can I just let go into this like I do when I meditate? )

I then sat in the silence for about 5 minutes and got up.


Thanks for listening xx







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Hannah B-T
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Re: Surrender

Postby Hannah B-T » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:28 pm

Thanks for that Louise,
So I sat quietly and looked for the self. This is what happened:
I feel a pulling back 'inside' like the focus of awareness moves from objects in the room and looks back towards my head or body. Then there is a feeling of expectation that I should find something, anything, a "sign" that this nothing I find is IT!
Then there is contraction in the jaw and throat. Impatience. Thoughts arise...Why can't I get this? Who is asking that? No answer. Stillness. Anger arises and thought, " How many times must I do this and never solve the mystery?"
Stand up.
ok. This is helpful for me.

So there is looking for a self, and not finding such a thing.

Then thoughts saying 'that can't be it! Where is the 'sign''.

If I asked you to look for a unicorn in the room you are sitting in, what would be the 'sign' that would indicate there was definatively not a unicorn in the room?

When no self is actually seen, then there are an abundance of thoughts that arise. (Is this it then? It can't be. It must be more peaceful than this. No, it definitely can't just be this nothingness. There must be another nothingness. A loving nothingness. This is not loving, it is nothing. Blank. Empty. Hollow. Boring.
ok, i actually gave this to you from a postion of 'this hasn't been seen, but when it really is, then x.y,z. interestingly you seem to be answering from again a position of seeing it, but then being sidetracked by ideas about what should be happening.
I.e that seeing no self should be about love.

Hollow, boring blank. These are words of aversion. Words that say there is still some fear here in accepting what is seen.
Fear arises. What if this is really what I have been searching for, for over 40 years? I think it might be. Shit, this is not good. It will be o.k if it is. Everyone who has found the nothing that is everything, prefers it to when they didn't know. So they say. Can I just let go into this like I do when I meditate? )
which then fits with this stuff.


Right then, let's starting looking closer at a few things here.

If there is no solid separate entity 'louise/self/I' found, then does that mean there was one that suddenly disappears when doing inquiry? When that emptiness is seen, is then something lost? what exactly would that be?

What is the word 'love' pointing to that you feel is missing here? how would you describe that further?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Colour
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Re: Surrender

Postby Colour » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:46 am

Hi Hannah,

Thanks for your help.
If you asked me to look for a unicorn in the room I am sitting in, I would not bother even attempting to look as there are no unicorns in existence. So I wouldn't need a sign, I just know there are none.

{ If there is no solid separate entity, louise/self/I found, then does that mean there was one that suddenly disappears when doing enquiry?}

Ha! Such a great question! It means there never was one in the first place. That is hilarious.

{When that emptiness is seen, is then something lost?}

No everything seems the same.

{ What is the word love pointing to that you feel is missing here? How would you describe that further? }

An o.k-ness. So no resistance to anything. I have a memory of a time when I first learned TM meditation when I was 16. After a month or so I remember being happy for no apparent reason. I think I may have been searching for that feeling of freedom and feeling that is missing.


Thanks again,

Louise





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Hannah B-T
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Re: Surrender

Postby Hannah B-T » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:37 pm

Over the weekend if you can i would like you to go out for a short walk, preferably in nature and look at the following in just a relaxed,gentle way.

look at any clouds is the sky, do they need a self to be doing what they are doing?

Look at the trees, do they need a self to be moving in the wind?

Look at the animals, birds, dogs etc, do they need a self to be doing all their complicated activities and movements?

Look at your feet walking along, your hands swinging, do they need a self to be doing all that?

Look at other people walking along, what about that appearance, do they need a self to be doing that?
An o.k-ness. So no resistance to anything.
So then after all that take it all in and look if there is anything in perceptual experience (not ideas) that is not ok.

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Colour
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Re: Surrender

Postby Colour » Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:01 am

Will do and will get back to you Sunday night. xx


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Colour
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Re: Surrender

Postby Colour » Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:51 am

Hi Hannah,

It was easy to look at nature and the sky and clouds and realise there is no self needed.
When I looked at my feet and hands as I walked, I could see they just moved without a mover. Then I had thought, " I will stop walking" and then walking stopped. Then thought, " I will lift my arm" and arm lifted. So there was confusion. Is there a me that said those commands? Couldn't find anything but the thoughts. But somehow have a "feeling" I was able to instruct and carry out those things. Is it because nature doesn't have a physical brain, it does not think it is a self?
I easily get the unicorn analogy and the Santa analogy. Despite not finding a Self, why don't I get that the same?
I was wondering if it is the sound of my voice that I think is me? Because it has been going on for so, so long? So I kept listening to the sound of the voice of thoughts. Is there a self there? No. just a sound, albeit familiar.

Thanks for your help. Xx





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Hannah B-T
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Re: Surrender

Postby Hannah B-T » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:55 pm

Well done for the looking you did there.

let's look closer at the apparent interaction between the 'voice in the head' and body movements.

Sitting down in a relaxed way i want you to say in your head 'i am going to raise my right arm in 5 seconds time'. Then the arm will either raise, or not. What I want you to look more carefully at is if there is any mechanism evident in experience that can be perceived in the 5 seconds between the thought and the arm raising, proving that that thought was controlling the movement, rather than just guessing what might happen. repeat as many times as needed. change the movement 'i will get up and walk into the kitchen in 5 seconds' etc.

A thought after the event saying 'oh look there we go i raised the arm' is not sufficient evidence here. I want you to look for a mechanism that can be percieved by the senses making that happen.

Secondly, i would like you when you wake up in the morning to start shouting loudly in your head 'get up, get up, get up'
Eventually at some point the body will get out of bed.

Again i want you to look very closely whilst that happens if there is any mechanism in experience that indicates if and why the 'get up' that you shouted just before the body did get up, had any control or influence more than any of the other 'get up's before that moment?

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Colour
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Re: Surrender

Postby Colour » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:15 am

Hi Hannah,

So I said, "I am going to raise my arm in 5 seconds." The first time it didn't raise. Then it did sometimes and didn't sometimes. There was nothing in the five seconds between the thought and the action. Not a thing. I tried various instructions and the results were the same. Nothing.
In the morning when I shouted in my head, " Get up, get up, get up!" ( which I think I do every morning ) There was nothing found that was a trigger for when the body actually did get up.

Bizarre. Are we all just robots? Vertical, horizontal. What is the animator then? What makes the movements and the births and the deaths?

Xxx



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Hannah B-T
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Re: Surrender

Postby Hannah B-T » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:59 am

Great looking. In answer to your questions I'd ask, why do you think there has to be a controller?

Keep looking for a self that is the ' controller' . What about thoughts?

Think/imagine a particular car in as much detail as possible. Describe it to me. Again, in experience, outside of words/ ideas can any mechanism controlling what exact image/type/colour of car arose?

So what if there isn't. Does anything change? Does anything have to change?

And what do you mean an 'animator'? That's an unusual expression, tell me more about what you are trying to refer to there.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Colour
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Re: Surrender

Postby Colour » Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:37 pm

Why do I think there has to be a controller?
I find it miraculous, the possibility that nothing or no intelligence directs all of this. I cannot find a controller though.
In experience, no mechanism was seen.
If there isn't a controller, I don't know if anything would be different. There is still not enough proof that the brain doesn't direct the body.

When I say animator, I mean, like a pattern of energy. From direct looking I cannot see energy though.

I am frustrated. I want answers that stop this searching, once and for all.

Xx


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Hannah B-T
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Re: Surrender

Postby Hannah B-T » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:26 pm

I find it miraculous, the possibility that nothing or no intelligence directs all of this. I cannot find a controller though.
directs all of what? Go back to the exercise looking at nature, continue looking at this- isn't it miraculous, the wind in the trees, the plants growing, the animals moving and making noises.

Are there thoughts here about some sound of 'universal' controller or animator? obviously that's how some religions define god.
There is still not enough proof that the brain doesn't direct the body.
I have a scientific background so know how convincing scientific ideas can seem. And they are fine, as ideas. But here we are looking at evidence from our current experience only. That's not to completely to discount ideas, we are just being clear what is a theory vs what can actually be found in perception.

So looking again:
Can any perceptual experience of a 'brain' be found right now? Describe that to me (remember we are looking outside of images and ideas about brains)
Can any experience of a brain directing the body be found right now be found?


If the answers about are clear, is it acceptable to be ok with those findings, even if thoughts then come up saying things like 'but! X MUST be the case'

Sometimes I call this inquiry a form of 'unlearning', if that makes any sense.
It was learnt a very long time ago that a self, a Louise really must exist.
Now we are simply asking, what is left if those ideas are 'unlearned'?
When I say animator, I mean, like a pattern of energy. From direct looking I cannot see energy though.
Good, thank you for looking. Now, which answer is going to be accepted? The one from thoughts about an energetic animator? Or the answer from direct looking that can't find such a thing?
I am frustrated. I want answers that stop this searching, once and for all.
Frustration can often be a good sign in this type of inquiry that some sound of 'cognitive dissonance' is starting to happen. i.e that is is more clearly being seen how often ideas about something are not matching up with what is found when looking directly at our experience. This can trigger fear or at the least be confusing or unnerving. A lot of inquiry stalls at this point.

What is holding things back from accepting the much simpler, repeatable and obvious evidence of your senses over beliefs and ideas? This is a key aspect we need to resolve. It is often fear. I want you to look carefully for any fear reaction in the body when doing the direct looking.
Remember, if there never really was a self there is nothing to lose here.
If there is, the worst that will happen is it will be found!

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Colour
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Re: Surrender

Postby Colour » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:37 pm

Yes I agree that everything is miraculous. How anything appears out of nothing and disappears into nothing is miraculous.
Yes, that us what I am saying... that it seems impossible that all of these miracles appear randomly, without an intelligence.

O.K I will stop giving ideas and directly look again.
No perceptual experience of a brain can be found. When I look for a brain I see nothing. Some images of a brain appear. Some thoughts... "of course there is a brain" appear and disappear.

No, no experience of a brain directing the body right now can be found.

Yes thoughts do come up saying things opposing what is actually seen. I am not really comfortable though. I have persistent thoughts now that maybe this is all a con and I am being sucked in to yet another "Non-duality drama" ;) then I am o.k with that.re.

The energetic patterning cannot be seen here, so that answer must be accepted.

What is holding me back from accepting the simplicity of my direct looking is definitely fear of illness to the body.

Xx





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