Presence

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lavilavica
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Presence

Postby lavilavica » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:54 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I was and am still in the state in life feeling the need for the professional shift and feeling its closeness but not knowing yet how it will turn out and where do I want to go from here nor what do I want to do, since all this depends on finding my purpose. I just feel ready to get answers to this inner search that lasted so long and I've found a strong synchronicity there lately between my inner state and the ways that have led me to you.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
Desire to follow my instinct for finding the truth by inner search; desire to continue the work on becoming an accomplished human being, with the possibility of living the life in best possible way, which means to realize my purpose of the existence in this embodiment, and thus contribute in creating a better world for myself and the people around me; to discover my special gift that could transform the work into the source of creativity; the desire to know the truth; the desire to live freely, authentically, unconditioned by the fear, lack of self-confidence and uncertainty; a desire to be liberated and immune to the judgments of others; desire of becoming sure and acting from the certainty; desire of becoming better person for myself and for the others; the need to be love and good and to be able to express them fully and freely; the need to satisfy my intellectual fire; the desire to find peace and joy in everyday life; the desire to sense and feel the truth; the desire to be always present and aware; the desire to end the suffering caused by injustice and strong emotions; a desire not to be subject to conventions and social conditioning; a desire to heal the old wounds from childhood; a desire to forgive my parents and all those who have caused me pain and suffering; a desire to surrender and accept all that life may bring; ...

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
Even as a child I started wondering and searching for the answers to the ontological and metaphysical questions, as well as the inner inquiry, to find who am I, to feel accomplished etc. Through schooling I read philosophical and spiritual books, as well as a lot of literature. Upon graduation from the french language and literature, my inner search continued through reading more spiritual, self-development, psychological, religious, self-help and other books, among which the works and teachings of Eckhart Tolle resonated the best with my states and searching back then. Since then, almost a decade ago, I have stayed on this path of searching for the truth and self-perfectionning until I came to know about liberation unleashed and felt the need and felt prepared for breaking through the state of "being stuck" and not knowing yet, to be able to finally find my life purpose.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 9

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yuvi
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Re: Presence

Postby yuvi » Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:44 am

Hi lavilavica,

hope you are doing well!
my name is Yuvi and I am from India. I can help with your search and i'd like to know if you are ok with me being your guide. On your response, we will take it forward.

Yuvi
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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lavilavica
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Re: Presence

Postby lavilavica » Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:45 pm

Hi Yuvi,
Thank you for replying.
I don't know on what basis I can answer your question, the only information I have is that you are from India.
But I guess that it's ok, I don't have preferences on this matter, since I suppose that all guides are qualified for that.
So, I am ready to move forward.

Thank you,
lavilavica

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yuvi
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Re: Presence

Postby yuvi » Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:24 am

Thank you, lavilavica. Yes, it is just few feel comfortable with their own timezones or gender. Also, I hope you are okay me addressing you as lavilavica.

In this process, I will give you questions or pointers for you to “LOOK” and reply to me. “Looking” is not same as “thinking”. “Looking” means observing, with concentration, the experience right here and now. This is the Direct Experience (DE).
When looking, be sure to look at ‘thoughts’ as ‘thoughts’ (regardless of what thoughts says or images that appears mentally), and ‘sensations’ as ‘sensations’ (regardless of what thoughts labels these sensations). It is crucial that you are sincere in this process to notice how your imagined self comes into being.

For e.g. I may ask, what is the DE of writing an email to your friend. You may reply, “there is a sight of laptop in front of me and my hands typing letters. There are sensations in my fingers as I type.”

I will now explain the difference between "Direct Experience" and "Words-that-comes-out-of-thinking” or “thoughts" in the above statement using these abbreviations: T- Thought, DE-Direct Experience.

“there is a sight (DE) of laptop (T) in front of (T) me (T) and my (T) hands (T) typing (T) letters(T) . There are sensations (DE) in my (T) fingers (T) as I (T) type (T).

Here is my first question:

When you say "I" during regular conversations, or have a thought, "Oh! I should have called him," where exactly does this word "I" point to in DE?
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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lavilavica
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Re: Presence

Postby lavilavica » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:40 pm

Hi Yuvi,
It would be ok if you call me Oliva.
I would also like for you to know that the notion of no-self is not new to me, and that sometimes I think that I have come to the realization of it and that I already live with that true.
But, it is still that I "think" and I need a confirmation if it is really the case.
I have still some unresolved questions regarding the "I" and the looking.
When you say "look" and you ask to search for the "I" as the object, I am not sure that "I" can be treated that way (comparaisons with Santa Clause, or with baby) since these are pointing to an object, even imaginary whilst the "I"that I can perceive from DE can't be described as the object.
"I" is the labeling of all that is experienced by the being in this embodiment - sensations, thoughts, feelings, emotions, conscience, but "I"as a separate entity from that doesn't exist for me.
Nevertheless, I am still subject to ego drives, reactivity to other peoples's behavior, irritability, despite being aware of them.
" When you say "I" during regular conversations, or have a thought, "Oh! I should have called him," where exactly does this word "I" point to in DE?"
"I" from DE points to formless conscientiousness limited, in some way, in and by the body that gives it the feeling of being individual, separate and different from other human beings. It points to a space, a void, but within the frame of this body.
I know what the realization of non-duality looks like (from the experience of other participants at LU) and I see that it is not conform (yet) to my realization. That's why I asked for your guidance and help.

Oliva

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yuvi
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Re: Presence

Postby yuvi » Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:30 am

hi Olivia,
I would also like for you to know that the notion of no-self is not new to me, and that sometimes I think that I have come to the realization of it and that I already live with that true.
in LU, we begin fresh and have a conversation and then decide what are the sticky areas. So for now, please let go of all past experiences however beautiful or insightful they may be. Start looking with fresh eyes.
When you say "look" and you ask to search for the "I" as the object, I am not sure that "I" can be treated that way (comparaisons with Santa Clause, or with baby) since these are pointing to an object, even imaginary whilst the "I"that I can perceive from DE can't be described as the object.
You are explaining your understanding but not telling me what is the experience of "I" in DE.
"I" is the labeling of all that is experienced by the being in this embodiment - sensations, thoughts, feelings, emotions, conscience, but "I"as a separate entity from that doesn't exist for me.
What is the "me" that is referred to here?
"I" from DE points to formless conscientiousness limited, in some way, in and by the body that gives it the feeling of being individual, separate and different from other human beings. It points to a space, a void, but within the frame of this body.
This is pure story of what is learnt about consciousness, awareness, emptiness, etc. Is "space", "void", "frame of body" are all experienced in DE? Or just an experience of thoughts about consciousness, awareness and stuff?

Please LOOK for where "I" points to and reply only from DE. Your reply should come only from DE.

please also use quote function.
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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lavilavica
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Re: Presence

Postby lavilavica » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:48 am

Hi Yuvi,
ok, I know that we will have to deal with thoughts and thinking trying to separate them from the feeling of being, my head is often so crowded with thoughts that it can be difficult to watch them and not be identified with them. I also have the tendency to analyze, to understand, to find logical consequence, before accepting the idea. I guess that won't help with this kind of insight.
[quote]What is the "me" that is referred to here? (I am trying to use quote function here but for some reason it doesn't work)
Athough it can hardly be put in words the description I gave you wasn't fake, taken from spiritual speculation as you implied, I really feel it that way, as a space behind my chest, inside the body, filling the body from inward, but it can't be described as it is without shape, at least it is a sensation I get when I turn my inner eyes inside. When I don't do that, when I stop practicing the presence and awareness I continue to function on auto-pilot of my thoughts.
The fact is that I don't know where "I"points to, my DE are the sensations that I mentioned above although I have the feeling that all that this body and conscience experience is "me".
I hope that am not the hopeless case for this task, but I also have the feeling of being able to work this trough, with you.
So thank you

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yuvi
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Re: Presence

Postby yuvi » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:41 am

Hi Olivia,
I hope that am not the hopeless case for this task, but I also have the feeling of being able to work this trough, with you. So thank you
i have all the time to work this with you, all i need is your honesty, commitment and daily response (if you are busy and couldnt reply, please inform and it is fine).
(I am trying to use quote function here but for some reason it doesn't work)
simply select the sentence you want to quote and click the button 'quote' above. You can preview before submitting. You can see the work 'quote' within parenthesis before and after the sentence.
my head is often so crowded with thoughts

What is the DE of head?
space behind my chest, inside the body, filling the body from inward,

'Chest' is a word that comes from thoughts. in DE, is there an experience of 'chest'?
'Body' is a word that comes from thoughts. in DE, is there an experience of 'body'?
LOOK. Ignore what thoughts narrate about the experience and tell how "I" is experienced "before" a thought appears.
but it can't be described as it is without shape, at least it is a sensation I get when I turn my inner eyes inside. When I don't do that, when I stop practicing the presence and awareness I continue to function on auto-pilot of my thoughts.
This is too just a story. There are thoughts about why you couldnt describe and those thoughts are typed and sent to me.
The fact is that I don't know where "I"points to
,
Is there an 'entity' that looks for "I"? What says "I don't know"? Where is this entity that is looking for "I" located?
my DE are the sensations that I mentioned above
No. Sensations are direct experience. Calling the sensations 'body', 'inward', space are all labels of thoughts. Strip away thought labels, what is left behind? Is there anything apart from sensations + thoughts?
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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lavilavica
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Re: Presence

Postby lavilavica » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:04 am

Hi Yuvi,
thank you for being on disposal, it's a great thing.
I would like to start from your last question
Calling the sensations 'body', 'inward', space are all labels of thoughts. Strip away thought labels, what is left behind? Is there anything apart from sensations + thoughts?
Ok, but how am I supposed to describe anything without using words as labels, and when I try to express something it immediately implies using thoughts to generate the words?
Let's try anyway. "I" is felt as a presence. There is nothing there apart from sensations and thoughts, there is no thinker or perceiver, thoughts create that illusion, there is only thought by itself.
Is there an 'entity' that looks for "I"? What says "I don't know"? Where is this entity that is looking for "I" located?
No, there is no other entity than the life flow felt within the body. It's only a thought arising when questioned. Thought says I don't know. When the thought prevales it is located in the brain, head, eyes. When being aware, it is not located anywhere, it just is, it feels like aliveness, presence, with or without thoughts, although they tend to be less intensive then.
'Chest' is a word that comes from thoughts. in DE, is there an experience of 'chest'?
'Body' is a word that comes from thoughts. in DE, is there an experience of 'body'?
LOOK. Ignore what thoughts narrate about the experience and tell how "I" is experienced "before" a thought appears.
There is experience of chest like a feeling of the centre of the body, where de feelings and emotions are felt the most, it si also the place where the anxiety is felt like the short of breathing and inner pressure, when exited heart bit is felt.
No there is no experience of the body itself like a separate entity but of the aliveness throughout it, when attention put on some parts of the body feeling the presence of that part the most. But in all, body is sensed as existence, as existing aliveness.
IWhat I described above is how I is experiences before thought appears.
What is the DE of head?
There is no DE of any part of the body unless the attention is put on it - the same with head. It is sensed as the place from where attention and consciousness derive from, where the thoughts generate from, as the centre of the sight turned inward or outward, where the inner light is at it's highest level.
oh, I can tell what your comment on this is going to be, but I am being honest here.
I will surely try to post regularly and daily, and in the case of lacking time (fresh mother for the second time) I will let you know.
Thank you Yuvi (is that a male or female name?)

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yuvi
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Re: Presence

Postby yuvi » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:13 am

but how am I supposed to describe anything without using words as labels, and when I try to express something it immediately implies using thoughts to generate the words?
You can stick to basic words like ‘touch’ ‘thought’ ‘sight’ ‘sound’ ‘taste’. These are the primary sensations and DE (these are labels too, but let’s come to that later).
So when you describe experience, pay close attention to ‘words’ that are layered by thoughts over experience.
Let's try anyway. "I" is felt as a presence.
How is this presence ‘experienced”? Is there a presence or space "inside which” hearing, seeing, sensing, tasting and thinking takes place? PLease look again
No, there is no other entity than the life flow felt within the body.
body is sensed as existence, as existing aliveness.
What is the DE of body? Look only at DE
When the thought prevales it is located in the brain, head, eyes.
What is the DE of brain, head, eyes?
There is experience of chest like a feeling of the centre of the body
here in your response:
Direct Experience: Sensation + thought
Story about experience <or> Content of thought: Chest like a feeling of the center of the body.
Can this be seen again?
where de feelings and emotions are felt the most, it si also the place where the anxiety is felt like the short of breathing and inner pressure, when exited heart bit is felt.
This is a good sign that there is resistance. See what is behind this resistance? What is the actual experience of resistance without the story of thoughts (or content of thoughts)?
What I described above is how I is experiences before thought appears.
You miss the subtle thoughts that appears just before typing.
There is no DE of any part of the body unless the attention is put on it - the same with head. It is sensed as the place from where attention and consciousness derive from, where the thoughts generate from, as the centre of the sight turned inward or outward, where the inner light is at it's highest level.
Moving forward, only report from DE. No explanations, interpretations, past knowledge, etc. If there is just sensation, fine, report it. if there is pressure or thought, fine, report it. LOOK closely to differentiate 'thought' from its contents.

Congratulations on second kid :) I am a male and yuvi is my abbreviated name that is convenient for non-indians to pronounce. :)

yuvi
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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lavilavica
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Re: Presence

Postby lavilavica » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:51 am

Hi Yuvi,

Thank you, I really enjoy (this time even more) in my baby.
Let's start with answers.
How is this presence ‘experienced”? Is there a presence or space "inside which” hearing, seeing, sensing, tasting and thinking takes place? PLease look again
Like aliveness, seeing, breathing, no other feeling exept sensations.
No, there is no space "inside which", sensations arise, the body confinements are not felt, before including the thought.
Can I add a remark here? It is pointless to search to discover the hot water here, since that is obvious that there is no two "I", it's like searching to find something that doesn't exist just to prove it's nonexistence. Off course, thought create a different picture, that there are thoughts of "you" implying that there is the one who thinks and the other who is the object of thinking, but I am well aware of that illusion and know that there is only life existing.
I would have a question here, though? Since there is no "I"as person in particular, how come the existence experienced in this particular embodiment differentiate from any other? From my experience I find very difficult to cope with people who are totally identified with the ego and have no any awareness developed. But this is probably digressing.
What is the DE of body? Look only at DE
Here I am going to repeat myself (words create confusion with "self" ""me" "I" etc. but we have no other invented yet).
The DE of the body if is felt the most in seeing, then breathing, slight muscle tension in the upper back, pressure from crossing the legs or putting hand on the stomach, at the moment, possibility to move any part of it when needed, like for typing, looking at my baby etc. (I sustain from the tendency of giving explanations, reflexive reaction easily triggered when having to answer something)
What is the DE of brain, head, eyes?
There is no experience of those parts, if I would try to force the description it would mean involving thoughts.
Slight pressure in the chest, tension in between shoulders on the back, other ways there is no other experience of the "chest"
This is a good sign that there is resistance. See what is behind this resistance? What is the actual experience of resistance without the story of thoughts (or content of thoughts)?
It may be the case, but I feel these sensations in my chest and back rather often lately (I explain them by exhaustion, tiredness as I don't get much sleep since giving birth and a lot of housing to do, but also from repressed thoughts of what comes after maternity leave). But also usually the tension and anxiety reflect in that way on my body.
I can't see what is behind the resistance, have no idea. As if when yo use the term "resistance" you automatically project on thoughts and labeling. I have no conscience of it and don't feel it as the "resistance" so I don't know how to address it. I only report on these sensations I have, not only at this present moment.
Thank you Yuvi

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Re: Presence

Postby yuvi » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:27 am

I would have a question here, though? Since there is no "I"as person in particular, how come the existence experienced in this particular embodiment differentiate from any other? From my experience I find very difficult to cope with people who are totally identified with the ego and have no any awareness developed. But this is probably digressing.
It sure is, because seeing through the self illusion is only a beginning. However, once it is clearly seen that a separate self is only a ‘belief’ in a thought story, then the stories built over this will begin to collapse. So we have to first be crystal clear on the illusion of ‘I’ and how thoughts create this illusion.
The DE of the body if is felt the most in seeing
Perfect! In seeing, thoughts will tell that this is ‘my arm’ and that is a ‘tv’.
In DE, does image (experience of seeing) itself tell you there is a ‘body’ here and ‘outside world’ there? Is there an inside and outside in the DE of seeing?
Then breathing
In DE, there is only sensation + sound + thought.
Sensations (DE) around nostrils (Thought) and sound (DE) of air entering nose (Thought).
Thought as an experience is true. What it says is just a label, unreal.
Slight pressure in the chest, tension in between shoulders on the back, other ways there is no other experience of the "chest"
Slight pressure in the chest (thought), tension in between shoulders on the back (sensation + thought). So there were sensations and thought ‘about sensations’. In DE, therefore, there was sensation + thought. Period.
I have no conscience of it and don't feel it as the "resistance"
Resistance is a contraction that happens when ‘content of thoughts’ are believed to be true. Like, the word ‘thirst’ is mistaken for actual thirst. We will come to that later.

Now, pay close attention and report from DE for below questions:

1. Where does 'I' point to in DE?
2. What is there in DE?
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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lavilavica
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Re: Presence

Postby lavilavica » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:20 pm

In DE, does image (experience of seeing) itself tell you there is a ‘body’ here and ‘outside world’ there? Is there an inside and outside in the DE of seeing?
Yes, seeing gives a sensation that there is the particular conscience (rather than particular body) through which the seeing happens. When aware, free from thoughts, the experience of inside and outside world doesn't exist (I don't think about making a difference between the two). But in order to answer your question then the thoughts make possible the experience of both (labels), inside and outside world, to be able to make the difference. Usually however, there is the feeling that the world outside is seen by "me", "my" body, I suppose.
Slight pressure in the chest (thought), tension in between shoulders on the back (sensation + thought). So there were sensations and thought ‘about sensations’. In DE, therefore, there was sensation + thought. Period.
I am not sure to understand this - what is the thought here: "pressure" or "chest", "tension" or "back", and how do I manage to describe sensation only? What makes here thought 'about sensation'?
Resistance is a contraction
from what I understand these words are pure thoughts, explained sensations, but how the pure sensations of "resistance' and 'contraction' can be put in words?
1. Where does 'I' point to in DE?
2. What is there in DE?
At the moment, it is not possible for me to answer this question. All my life, when hearing from others "you" this or that, "you are like this or that", even when hearing "I love you" I was immediately puzzled by the question "but who am I", "what is the "I", "what is the "I" that is loved or not", accompanied with the feeling of emptiness. Back then, I thought that this puzzle would be resolved one day, filled in some way, but today I don't expect to find the answer, the existence itself "here and now" doesn't make questions, it just is. It might be that I learned and applied this intellectually, I can't really say, but I have no experience or sensation of "I" to report, I can't see it.
Going to sleep. Good night Yuvi

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Re: Presence

Postby lavilavica » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:29 am

Hi Yuvi,
I want to add something to my previous post.
I realize that life is happening not "to me" but as "me", and it's been some time that I am getting use to the idea of letting the life flowing, letting go, without standing it in the way by interfering with illusion of control that I used to hold on to.
I became aware that life was always there, living it's way anyway, and that the ego, I, and a constant self talk was the unnecessary, heavy burden of fear, stress, anxiety, pain and suffering, guilt, etc., created by the mind and the illusion of control, making choices, decisions, being responsible for what happens.
And I noticed also that the fear that used to be very intense, is fading. Moreover, it became impossible for me to hold on to an old pattern, to stay on the old path that I feel no longer belongs to me. I am now more opened to embrace life, sure that it is bringing, as it always have had, what is there to be experienced and that is, I believe, what is needed for this time of being.,
But, I have to admit, that I don't feel completely surrendered, some fear and doubt is still there preventing me to fully relax and have the full faith that the present uncertainty will be resolved when the time comes. I apprehend that if I completely let go, I will lose my job (that lost interest for me), without finding another one, not knowing yet in what direction to search for it, and that in that way I would not be able to sustain my family, trying 'foolishly' to discover what is my unique contribution to the world and the life stream and so on, and so on. I know that it is the game of the mind, and that the fear here is nothing but normal, so I am trying to accept it and live with it. That would be, for the moment, a more completed picture of my present.
Thank you for being there




,

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yuvi
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Re: Presence

Postby yuvi » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:54 pm

shi Olivia, pretty tight day, sorry for the delay.
here are my pointers for you to look based on response:
Usually however, there is the feeling that the world outside is seen by "me", "my" body, I suppose
“me” and “my” are labels. ‘Normally, we feel that “I” am behind my eyes looking the ‘outside’ world. When you really look, there is just sensation (thoughts label that as nose, brows) and a thought (its contents run as ‘of course, I am here). There is a sensation + thought – nothing else. Please look very carefully
I am not sure to understand this - what is the thought here: "pressure" or "chest", "tension" or "back", and how do I manage to describe sensation only? What makes here thought 'about sensation'?
There is only a thought (a language or word) called ‘pressure’ that is labelled over raw "sensation". Apart from raw sensations and thoughts (regardless of its content), there is no one there. So your description ‘pressure, chest, back, etc’ are all coming from the content of thoughts. In DE, there is a thought - its content is just a label, a concept.
I realize that life is happening not "to me" but as "me",
This another story, Olivia. Any reference point to experience is ‘thought’ uninspected and believed.
some fear and doubt is still there preventing me to fully relax
Explore the fear. What is the DE of fear? How is it experienced? Do not rely on the content of thoughts, it is okay that thoughts come and go, those are real experience because it is there. But what is says is just a story. so LOOK deep – what is behind this fear? If not for thought, who or what is there ‘experiencing fear’?
I apprehend that if I completely let go, I will lose my job (that lost interest for me), without finding another one, not knowing yet in what direction to search for it, and that in that way I would not be able to sustain my family, trying 'foolishly' to discover what is my unique contribution to the world and the life stream and so on, and so on
This is a belief. What is there that ‘apprehends’?
What is the ‘I’ in this study? How is this experienced other than thought?
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.


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