Guide available - Breaking first fetter / Stream Entry / Emptiness of Self

[Xain]

Hi

I have a few spots available for new people who would like to be guided.

I am interested in guiding people who have an understanding of the Buddhist 'Fetters' and/or wish to realise the emptiness of the self (lack of an inherent self) and attain 'Stream Entry'.
This breaks the first fetter (and the second and third with it) of the ten fetter model.

If you understand these terms and would like to be guided then either reply to this message or send me a Private message.

All the best
Xain ♥

[magicking27]

I am familiar with that terminology, and would prefer to work that way too. If you are up for it I am up for it.

I am familiar with a bunch of other systems, but I am interested in just seeing things as they are

[Xain]

Hi MagicKing27

Thanks for your reply.
Do you have a preferred name I can use on here?

My name is Xain - I've been guiding on here for about three years or so.

Could you give me an idea of your background - Any particular non-dual teachers you follow, or any Buddhist / Spiritual background?
Give me an idea exactly what you would like guidance towards and why.
Have you made any progress yourself towards your goals?

I look forward to your reply.

Xain ♥

[Xain]

Do you wish to be guided at this time?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Hi Xain,

I had busy weekend and did not see that you had replied. I am not very familiar with how this forum works.

Yes, I would love to be guided.

I have studied the Pali canon a bit, after initially being drawn to Buddhism through the art of Tibetan Tantra. I took Goenka's ten day vipassana retreat a few years ago.

I've read some Advaita Vedanta, and some Kashmir Shaivism.

I am very familiar with the ten fetters. My friend who got me to sign onto this site is constantly talking about stream entry.

I understand the lack of a personal self as a truly existing thing, but it comes with a feeling almost of sadness or melancholy, and I was told that isn't right. So, help! :-)

[magicking27]

Oh, and you can call me Jason.

[Xain]

Hi Jason

I had busy weekend and did not see that you had replied. I am not very familiar with how this forum works.

You may need to hit 'Subscribe' on the little spanner button, bottom left - That will inform you of replies.

Also, the Quote function can be very useful.
Essentially, copy and paste a block of text you want to 'Quote' and while it is highlighted, click the 'Quote' button and it will put blocks around it.

So this:

[ QUOTE ] Hello Jason [ / QUOTE ]

Looks like this:

Hello Jason

You can choose 'Preview' beforehand to check it's going to look OK.

We continue on . . .

I am very familiar with the ten fetters. My friend who got me to sign onto this site is constantly talking about stream entry.

Well I hope you are not being goaded into this. I hope this is something you genuinely wish to examine . . .to realise . . .

I understand the lack of a personal self as a truly existing thing, but it comes with a feeling almost of sadness or melancholy, and I was told that isn't right. So, help! :-)

Why that feeling? What makes it sad?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Well I hope you are not being goaded into this. I hope this is something you genuinely wish to examine . . .to realise . . .

Not at all. I have been seeking realization for many years. This method left me sad, but I am wanting to see it through. Perhaps I am sitting stuck at the edge of a gate past which it will not seem sad.

Why that feeling? What makes it sad?

I guess first of all a sense that the suffering in the world is so pointless.

Also that my struggles and the struggles of others are so much a colossal waste.

I have always been ambitious, but struggled with success vs. enlightenment. Has this been a waste?

All my personal stories. Is it wasteful to concern myself with them?

Art, music and story. All of these seem in jeopardy.

That's what pops up when your question is considered.

These sound silly, perhaps, but that is what the sadness triggers.

[Xain]

These sound silly, perhaps, but that is what the sadness triggers.

Not silly at all. Quite understandable - And I appreciate your honesty and openness.

Not at all. I have been seeking realization for many years. This method left me sad, but I am wanting to see it through. Perhaps I am sitting stuck at the edge of a gate past which it will not seem sad.

Ok, Jason.
Regarding the ten fetters, it must be clear to you that if you are seeking realization, then the first thing to be addressed on your path would be the first of these fetters - The belief in an inherently existing separate self. That's what this guidance is addressing.

Perhaps you feel that something will change? Something will be dissolve, disappear or die?
This is not the case.
All that we are considering here . . . is what has been the case all along - There has never been an inherent self - There never was or will be in the future.
All the guidance here is to show this.
In a sense, nothing will change.

I guess first of all a sense that the suffering in the world is so pointless.
Also that my struggles and the struggles of others are so much a colossal waste.

In a way, I would agree with you.
As Eckhart Tolle points out in his book, something like 10 million people were killed by other people in the 20th century alone - Maybe more.
What total un-necessary suffering - What a complete waste.
However . . .
Coupled with these ideas is also the idea that . . . it could have been different. It could have gone 'some other way'.
That people have inherent choice and control - Their own free-will to change things and make things different.
What if this was not the case - What if there was no 'real' free-will . . . even the free-will assumed in you coming here responding to my post offering guidance!

I have always been ambitious, but struggled with success vs. enlightenment. Has this been a waste?
All my personal stories. Is it wasteful to concern myself with them?
Art, music and story. All of these seem in jeopardy.
That's what pops up when your question is considered.

Within these questions there is a subtle sense of self.
'Has this been a waste?' - If there was an inherent self that it could be a waste for it might be, I suppose.
Again, this notion that there is a self here that 'could have had it go some other way'.
If you realise it 'couldn't have gone any other way' . . . because there never was an inherent 'Jason' pulling the strings in the thing usually called 'The Story of Jason's life' . . . then what reason for the sadness?

Nothing changes - There will still be personal stories - There will still be life going on with 'you' involved in it.
But it will be seen to all be an illusion - The self is empty. It will be shown that all along, it has been dependant on self-referencing thoughts.

Even the notion that 'I am seeking realisation' will be shown to be an illusion - That there never was a 'real' Jason seeking enlightenment all along.
Indeed, even when it is realised that there is no inherent self . . . it will be realised at the same time, that no inherent self ever realised anything!
Even that notion is empty.

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

I agree wholeheartedly with all that you say. It makes so much sense, and actually it occurred to me many years ago as a logical construct. I was a teenager and I thought, there really isn't a me in the real or permanent sense. The whole story of a person's life is really nothing. There is only the set of circumstances that disappear the moment they appear, in a sea of awareness that shifts perspective with each new experience.

I feel like there is a bubble wall between the logical understanding of this fact and the sense of relief that others point to.

I don't know- it is like it is seen and refusing to stay in awareness.

I look at others posts and I don't feel like I am struggling against the observation quite how others are.

I look for a self. There is no physical sign of it. Just experiences coming and going. Things seen or things thought. Who is the seer? Not Jason. That is just a construct, something to hang it all on, but it is empty. It seems clear to me that I understand this, and yet the feeling of anxiety or sadness invariably also comes up as a felt sense emanating from the stomach region and flowing up to the chest.

Sometimes there is a tensing in the neck.

I feel like I am battling a puzzle, in which the solution is to stop battling, but I don't know how to stop, perhaps for fear that the adversary will give me a bloody nose if I drop my guard.

And then my wife does something annoying and I contract totally into ego fear/anger.

Or my children disturb my meditation and I get annoyed. This fills me with triple guilt!

Or my roof starts leaking and I feel that the sky is literally falling.

Sometimes I will stand still in a moment of anger or fear, and consciously bring to awareness the fact that it is all just a play of impersonal forces and that I am just a component of such forces without any real or permanent self, and a voice in my head says, "You idiot, what matters is that the roof is caving in at this moment. Relaxing and thinking deep thoughts does not solve that problem and it doesn't matter whether you have an inherent self, there is going to be a smashed, wet family if the roof falls on them."

So, help!

[magicking27]

Within these questions there is a subtle sense of self.

How does that subtle sense of self go away?

I feel like this is the crux of the problem.

[Xain]

I feel like there is a bubble wall between the logical understanding of this fact and the sense of relief that others point to.
I look at others posts and I don't feel like I am struggling against the observation quite how others are.

I would suggest to ignore 'what experiences other people have' when they realise the emptiness of the self.
Bliss, peace, happiness, living in a new way, laughter, joy etc
The only thing I will guide you with is to realise the emptiness of the self. That is all.
The realisation could be as simple and uneventful as 'Oh yeah, <shrug>'.

I don't know- it is like it is seen and refusing to stay in awareness.

Who's awareness exactly?

I look for a self. There is no physical sign of it. Just experiences coming and going.

Are experiences coming and going 'for someone'?
Right now this moment, is there a self or 'a body' that is having an experience?

I feel like I am battling a puzzle, in which the solution is to stop battling, but I don't know how to stop, perhaps for fear that the adversary will give me a bloody nose if I drop my guard.

I am happy to go through my entire guidance with you to see what we can find, rather than attempting to guide you from where you are now.
I'd prefer this, as it is more of 'covering all bases' and 'going through it all with a fine-toothed comb' so the realisation is complete and total.

And then my wife does something annoying and I contract totally into ego fear/anger.
Or my children disturb my meditation and I get annoyed. This fills me with triple guilt!
Or my roof starts leaking and I feel that the sky is literally falling.

From your description, I tend to think that this is the territory of the 4th and 5th fetters, not the first.
Breaking the first fetter will not, itself, remove suffering.
I am always keen to insist that my guidance is for the first fetter only. That's it.
People who come with expectations of peace, bliss, living in a new way, or no more suffering seldom achieve this just seeing 'no self'. In fact these expectations themselves might prevent the realisation entirely.
(The belief is still held that there is an inherent self achieving something, or who will no-longer suffer).

Sometimes I will stand still in a moment of anger or fear, and consciously bring to awareness the fact that it is all just a play of impersonal forces and that I am just a component of such forces without any real or permanent self, and a voice in my head says, "You idiot, what matters is that the roof is caving in at this moment. Relaxing and thinking deep thoughts does not solve that problem and it doesn't matter whether you have an inherent self, there is going to be a smashed, wet family if the roof falls on them."

The realisation doesn't change anything. Your suggestions here are bordering on 'nihilism' rather than a realisation of emptiness.
Life goes on as before after realising 'no self' - Chop wood, and carry water.

As I said before, it's not a question of going from one belief to another. There was a 'Jason' and now there's not a 'Jason' (This is not emptiness).
It's more about realising that there has never been an inherently real Jason choosing or controlling life.

If the roof is caving in, there is no inherent Jason.
If Jason stands there and does nothing, there is no inherent Jason.
If Jason relaxes and thinks deep thoughts to try to fix things, there is no inherent Jason.
If Jason calls a builder, fixes the roof himself using DIY skills, does whatever it takes to solve the problem for himself and his family, there is no inherent Jason.

If Jason realises that there is no inherent Jason, there is no inherent Jason.

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

In massachusetts for a family reuniin at the moment, which is why i havent had a chance to write for a couple if days.

The thing that is eluding me is that while I can believe that there is no actual jason as a thought geipped in consciousness it does not remive the felt sense

And i realize that this "felt sense" too is just a collection of thoughts that come and go, but they keep coming and going around the same spot.

It reminds me of a swarm of bees who can be carried as an object by moving the queen.

While there is no inherent object, the pieces hang together around the invisible and non existent center.

[Xain]

The thing that is eluding me is that while I can believe that there is no actual jason as a thought gripped in consciousness it does not remove the felt sense.

Can you describe this 'felt sense'?
Are you expecting this 'felt sense' to disappear?

You mention 'spot' and 'centre' - Does this have a location?
Where?

Xain ♥

[Xain]

Hi Jason

I need to manage my time, as there are only so many people I can guide at one time.
You haven't replied for four days, so I am assuming that you do not wish to continue with being guided.
No problem at all.

All the very best
Xain ♥