This is it

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randyw
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This is it

Postby randyw » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:45 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I have been seeing things more clearly lately, but it has been something that I have been doing alone. None of my friends, coworkers or family is really interested in this stuff. I want to experience being guided in this inquiry.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I want to realize truth as much as possible. I am not coming with expectations. I just want to go along and see what unfolds. If there is something to find or loose here than I'd like to see what that is.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have had several spontaneous peak experiences which pointed me to the realization that what I have always been looking for is this very same reality that has always been here, but somehow I missed it in my search for something else. In such moments, all seeking behavior seems laughable.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 11

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Canfora
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Re: This is it

Postby Canfora » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:57 am

Hi randyw and welcome to LU!
Sorry for the wait, we've been very busy.
Thank you for your introduction. I'm Sandra and I can be your guide if that's ok with you.
I have had several spontaneous peak experiences which pointed me to the realization that what I have always been looking for is this very same reality that has always been here, but somehow I missed it in my search for something else. In such moments, all seeking behavior seems laughable.
This is not about achieving a permanent, specif, "realized" experience. Both the search and the realization that "this is it" are just experiences and experiences are always changing. Our goal is to check if they are happening to or belong to a separate self, randyw.

If I ask you what do the words "randyw", "I", "me" point to, what would you answer? Where do you think this person that is supposed to be you is? What makes you think there is a randyw present here and now?

Have a look to what is present, to what surrounds you, and describe what is present that seems to be you, to the best of your ability.

Looking forward to our conversation!
S

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randyw
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Re: This is it

Postby randyw » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:56 pm

Hi Sandra,

Thank you very much! I'd be glad to have you as a guide.

"I" seems to point to the body/mind that is thinking and typing. Sometimes I also identify myself with certain traits too. My job, my family, my nationality, sports teams, abilities, places, the list goes on... I can see through that stuff pretty easily, but it keeps coming back.

What is present is the perceptions of both inside and outside of the body. There is the stuff of the 5 senses, but also thoughts which have a more imaginary quality. The thoughts seem to be me. Really, the thoughts seem to be what is most "me", while all the other stuff may or may not be "mine", but it does not seem to be "me"

The conscious experience, which may not always include thought, is what makes me think I exist. I can't find a location for consciousness. That is a mystery, but it seems to have a perspective that is centered on the brain.

Really, existence is the only certainty and I is the perspective from here.

Thanks for taking this on and I look forward to more conversation.

Randy

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Canfora
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Re: This is it

Postby Canfora » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:17 pm

Hi Randy!
"I" seems to point to the body/mind that is thinking and typing. Sometimes I also identify myself with certain traits too. My job, my family, my nationality, sports teams, abilities, places, the list goes on... I can see through that stuff pretty easily, but it keeps coming back.
Do you expect that your usual way of being in the world will change if you see there is no separate you?
Maybe changes will happen or not. It's impossible to know in advance. Try to keep these expectations to the side or you will be stuck in comparing what is real (in a conventional sense - what is here/now that can be sensed) with what you would expect to achieve - a certain type of experience, a state, a knowing, the end of suffering, etc, etc (which is imaginary, at least until it happens....).

It's a good thing that you can see this identification with a you coming and going. If it is seen you can look at it and notice how all these stuff can't be you.
The conscious experience, which may not always include thought, is what makes me think I exist. I can't find a location for consciousness. That is a mystery, but it seems to have a perspective that is centered on the brain.

Really, existence is the only certainty and I is the perspective from here.
Yes, it seems that there is a personal perspective. When you say that this perspective seems to be centered on the brain, are you describing a experience or something that you have learned? If you turn your attention to this perspective or focus in the sensation that seems to be in the center of the brain, what can you see? Can you spot a you somewhere, among the brain, experiencing a subjective perspective? Do you believe there is a little Randy, somewhere inside the brain :) ?

Keep it simple. Approach this investigation like you would do if you were searching an object. If a separate self exists, it must be somewhere, it must be available to be sensed, the same way other things are perceived - it must be present to be seen, smelled, touched, tasted, heard.

So have a look please, use your senses, look for the self like you would look for your house keys.

Do you see a self that is perceiving a perspective? Can this self be seen, smelled, touched, tasted, heard?

Can you find boundaries between a subjective perspective and a objective reality - a spot where a you begins and ends?

Let me know if I'm going too fast or if you have questions or doubts.

S

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randyw
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Re: This is it

Postby randyw » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:44 pm

Do you expect that your usual way of being in the world will change if you see there is no separate you?
Maybe changes will happen or not. It's impossible to know in advance. Try to keep these expectations to the side or you will be stuck in comparing what is real (in a conventional sense - what is here/now that can be sensed) with what you would expect to achieve - a certain type of experience, a state, a knowing, the end of suffering, etc, etc (which is imaginary, at least until it happens....).
Things have already changed, but it has never been what was imagined. I'll just follow this and see what happens.
Yes, it seems that there is a personal perspective. When you say that this perspective seems to be centered on the brain, are you describing a experience or something that you have learned? If you turn your attention to this perspective or focus in the sensation that seems to be in the center of the brain, what can you see? Can you spot a you somewhere, among the brain, experiencing a subjective perspective? Do you believe there is a little Randy, somewhere inside the brain :) ?
The brain thing is definitely learned. If it weren't for learning, I would not even know I have a brain. I feel no brain. There is a sense of attachment to the body, since the body is directly felt, the decisions to act with the body are also felt. Sensations of the body are with me wherever I go... except sometimes when I am dreaming.
Keep it simple. Approach this investigation like you would do if you were searching an object. If a separate self exists, it must be somewhere, it must be available to be sensed, the same way other things are perceived - it must be present to be seen, smelled, touched, tasted, heard.

So have a look please, use your senses, look for the self like you would look for your house keys.

Do you see a self that is perceiving a perspective? Can this self be seen, smelled, touched, tasted, heard?

Can you find boundaries between a subjective perspective and a objective reality - a spot where a you begins and ends?
Nope. Nothing to find. There is a body that is associated with self, but there is no observable center of self. Self is a useful concept to facilitate communication between people, but I can't find a physical object that is self. Everything I know directly is my perspective. In communication with others, there is the differentiation of perspectives using the concept of self. By myself, maybe there is no need for even the concept of self.

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Canfora
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Re: This is it

Postby Canfora » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:43 pm

Thank you for your answers, Randy. Good, you know how to use the quote function. Let's keep going, shall we? Oh, this is important. If you start feeling strong emotions being triggered by this inquiry - sometimes fears related with what may happen start to pop up when considering these questions - let me know so we can deal with them.
Sensations of the body are with me wherever I go... except sometimes when I am dreaming.
If the "me" isn't the body or inside the body (let me know if you have any doubts regarding this...), does that mean there is a "me" outside the body that is aware of the sensations of the body, as you're saying above?

Can you point to this "outside the body" me? Where is this me located, what's its size, its color, its shape, etc?

Have a look and let me know what you find that is a "me", the separate Randy.
S

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randyw
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Re: This is it

Postby randyw » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:02 pm

Good Afternoon Sandra,
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.
If you start feeling strong emotions being triggered by this inquiry - sometimes fears related with what may happen start to pop up when considering these questions - let me know so we can deal with them.
Thanks for the concern, but there are no issues. I've thought about this stuff before, but I'm trying to approach it without preconceptions.
If the "me" isn't the body or inside the body (let me know if you have any doubts regarding this...), does that mean there is a "me" outside the body that is aware of the sensations of the body, as you're saying above?
There is no perceivable me outside of the body either. There is the question of consciousness, but that is a mystery and I guess we are not dealing in speculation here.
The thoughts still fell like "me", but when the thoughts stop, there seems to be no "me", only "this"

Thanks,

Randy

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Canfora
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Re: This is it

Postby Canfora » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:55 am

Hi Randy!
Thanks for the concern, but there are no issues. I've thought about this stuff before, but I'm trying to approach it without preconceptions.
Nice.
The thoughts still fell like "me", but when the thoughts stop, there seems to be no "me", only "this"
How do you know if a thought points to something that is real or not?
What's the difference between thinking "I am Santa Claus" or "I am Randy" or "I am me" or "there is no me"? Can thoughts change what is here/now? Do they have that power?

Can thoughts create an I or is the I something that only exists as a bunch of thoughts, that seem to point to something that is real? Does the content of a though have the power to create something - example: if you think "pink elephant", does that mean a pink elephant must exit?

Take care,
S

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randyw
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Re: This is it

Postby randyw » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:38 pm

Hello Sandra,
How do you know if a thought points to something that is real or not?
I don't know in an absolute way, although conceptual thought is certainly useful for navigating this world.
What's the difference between thinking "I am Santa Claus" or "I am Randy" or "I am me" or "there is no me"? Can thoughts change what is here/now? Do they have that power?
The straitforward answer: No
The clever answer: Thoughts do exist as thoughts, so the thought itself becomes part of what is here and now.
Can thoughts create an I or is the I something that only exists as a bunch of thoughts, that seem to point to something that is real? Does the content of a though have the power to create something - example: if you think "pink elephant", does that mean a pink elephant must exit?
Thoughts only create existence in the imagination, not in the physical world.

Intellectually, I get that thoughts are not necessarily true and that they are not "me", but there seems to be an automatic identification with thought as it arises. The identification can be dropped quickly though.

Thanks for your help,

Randy

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Canfora
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Re: This is it

Postby Canfora » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:47 am

Hi Randy!
I don't know in an absolute way, although conceptual thought is certainly useful for navigating this world.
Ah, do you think that it is possible to achieve a absolute "knowingness", that thoughts can provide certainties, a end point, a "this is it" knowledge?

I have the idea that our way of thinking, our beliefs, are always changing. I read/hear something and what is being said seems to point to the truth and then I read/hear something else and it also seems to point to the truth (or not - sometimes ideas don't resonate with my current belief system). But it seems that ideas aren't absolute at all, my current beliefs depend of what is being thought/perceived/the buttons that are being pushed at the time being.
Intellectually, I get that thoughts are not necessarily true and that they are not "me", but there seems to be an automatic identification with thought as it arises. The identification can be dropped quickly though.
What makes the identification drop? Can you give me an example or two of how that works?

Take care,
S

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randyw
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Re: This is it

Postby randyw » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:40 pm

Good Morning Sandra,
Ah, do you think that it is possible to achieve a absolute "knowingness", that thoughts can provide certainties, a end point, a "this is it" knowledge?
No.
What makes the identification drop? Can you give me an example or two of how that works?
In the introduction, I mentioned the peak experiences, which are temporary. Sometimes one can be pointed to a timeless reality. In the case of liberation Unlimited, it is the reality of 'no self'. One could always dismiss this saying that the realization of 'no self' is just an experience. Or you could say that there never was a self, but the realization is always an experience in time. The 'This is it' experience is the recognition of a reality that has always been there also. This is just 'what is'. When you realize that there is 'no self', what are you left with? There is still this reality that has always been here. The reality is constantly changing, but the fact of its existence never goes away. You can perceive it in everything that is. Thoughts can turn your attention to imagination, but you can always turn back to what is here now. That is how I do it. I just turn my attention to what is happening.
During my peak experiences, I realized that what I had always been looking for had always been here. After the experiences were over, I forgot that and I wanted to find a way to make the experience last forever.
I finally realized that the experiences were always temporary and may never happen again. I also realized that what I had always been looking for was still here even if I didn't feel 'high'. I was also plagued by unfulfilled desires, but I seem to have finally worked through that.
It is also seen that being lost in thought is just a part of this reality.
I better stop before the police get me for being a spiritual weenie!

Thanks,

Randy

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Canfora
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Re: This is it

Postby Canfora » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:11 pm

Hi Randy, good afternoon!
I better stop before the police get me for being a spiritual weenie!
Thanks for the chuckle! What you're writing makes perfect sense to me. There is no need to edit your answers, that last post was great! Don't worry with giving the right answers - just be yourself.

Let me poke a little more. What do you see if you look to how a decision is made? Turn left, turn right / drink tea or drink coffee / decide when to get up or what to wear after getting up / decide what to eat.

If a separate self cannot be found, how do these things happen? Let me know what you see when you look at how a decision is made. Report what you can see going on in your immediate experience.

Take care,
S

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randyw
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Re: This is it

Postby randyw » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:30 pm

Hi Sandra,
What do you see if you look to how a decision is made?
Most of my actions seem to occur automatically. If thought is involved, then the decision can seem to emerge from thought. But where does the thought come from? Thoughts are automatic too. Even stopping thought involves the thought that I should stop thought. Intellectually, I understand that all this is just happening automatically, but the identification still happens.

When I am always lost in thought, I assume that I must be consciously controlling everything.The more I become conscious, the more I realize that there is no conscious control.

So...
There is no controlling entity.
There is no witnessing entity.

There is no reality to thought
There is no making sense of this outside of thought.
There is no understanding.
What does that leave us?

Time to get back to work.

Thanks for all your help and time,

Randy

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Canfora
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Re: This is it

Postby Canfora » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:12 am

Hi Randy!

Your answers sound like logic answers - you thought about how decisions are made and you are writing what you think about this subject. That's okay but I would like you to describe your immediate experience, instead of going into the answer provided by thinking about this stuff.

Keep it simple. Move one hand left or right, up or down.
Can you see how the decision to move the hand happens?

Get up and move around.
Can you see how the decision to move the legs, the arms, the eyes, etc happens?

Wait for the next thought to pop up.
Can you see any evidence that the thought appeared because of a previous decision to think that thought?
There is no reality to thought
There is no making sense of this outside of thought.
There is no understanding.
What does that leave us?
Here and now, where else :)
Are things okay as they are? Are you expecting Randy to change? Share a little more about your thoughts and feelings regarding this seeing that a separate I doesn't exist. What is going on?

Take care,
S

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randyw
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Re: This is it

Postby randyw » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:33 pm

Good Morning Sandra,
Keep it simple. Move one hand left or right, up or down.
Can you see how the decision to move the hand happens?
I can't really tell. It just happens. I read it, I want to move my hand, the hand moves. There is thought, but if I try to remember, than I am thinking about thought. Now I am thinking about thinking about thought.... and so on. I have the Idea to look to the right, I look to the right. I have the idea to look to the left. I look to the left. I just start to type.
Get up and move around.
Can you see how the decision to move the legs, the arms, the eyes, etc happens?
I just got up and walked around after reading that. Most of it is just taken care of. Automatic.
Wait for the next thought to pop up.
Can you see any evidence that the thought appeared because of a previous decision to think that thought?
The thoughts just pop up. Even if I did decide to think something, that decision would be a thought that came out of nowhere.
There doesn't seem to be anywhere to go with this. Everything either happens seemingly spontaneously(although there may be an unseen cause) or it is caused. In any case there is no origin of anything that can be found. What would that even be?
Are things okay as they are? Are you expecting Randy to change? Share a little more about your thoughts and feelings regarding this seeing that a separate I doesn't exist. What is going on?
I am glad to see the illusions melt away a little more. I am at work at the moment so I can't go into depth much. I'll write more in depth when I have time.

Thanks,

Randy


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