Want to see that there's nobody writing this...

[Miro]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
First of all, English is my second language.. I understand English 100%, but my writing isn't the best :) . I hope that's not a big problem for a guide :)... What brings me to Liberation unleashed? Well, probably desperation... I experienced some kind of 'fake' enlightenment about 3 times for past few months after reading about no self... But after a few days, everything went back to 'normal' self state and my ego came back... I want to become liberated permanently, not just for a few days...

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
Looking forward to become liberated permanently, not just for a few hours/days... I expect the Truth to be seen by nobody... I want to be nobody... I don't want 'me' to be attached to this body... I want to see, that there's no me typing this text, just typing happening by itself... "I" want to see that there‘s no one experiencing negative emotions...

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
This body called Miro attended one 10 days vipassana retreat. Meditation is happening twice a week... These eyes read about half a book Gateless Gatecrashers, read The Power Of Now, and watched many MANY videos about enlightenment/no self...

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 9

[Miro]

Please...!

5 days full of suffering have passed.. Still no guides interested...

"I" really need to see the Truth...

Miro

[Xain]

Hello Miro

Welcome to LU.
My name is Xain, and I am a guide here.

The reason that your post has remained unreplied for so long is that what you are asking in your post has nothing to do with the guidance on offer here.

Please read the FAQ on the front of the website, especially the part marked 'Liberation Unleashed is not'.
The link here:
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/

I want to become liberated permanently, not just for a few days...

This guidance is not about attaining a permanent state.

I expect the Truth to be seen by nobody... I want to be nobody... I don't want 'me' to be attached to this body.

None of what you are asking has anything to do with the guidance here at LU.
This is not a way to escape daily life.

Xain ♥

[Miro]

Hello Xain,

Thank you for reply. You're right. Now I removed all the expectations I've said.

I'm now expecting nothing... I just want to see through the illusion of self. That's it.

I want to see the Truth.

Actually, how can I want to see the Truth? How can Miro want to see something that he never experienced?

"The Truth" is just a label for "something"...

And I know that "something" is missing in my life...

Thank you.

Miro

[Xain]

Can you give me an idea of your background?
Have you followed any particular paths or teachers?
Do you belong to any specific Facebook groups?

Is the name 'Miro' Ok for this guidance, for you?

What exactly do you mean 'The Truth'?
Do you have any idea right now what this 'truth' is that you want to realise?
And why is that 'the truth'?
Give me an idea of where you intend to go here / your own perspective.

And I know that "something" is missing in my life...

Can you explain a little more?
Again, this area isn't something we deal with in this guidance.
I'm happy to try and assist in a general sense if that would help.

The only thing we examine in this guidance is the realisation that there is no inherently existing separate self, usually termed 'I' or 'me'.
That's it, although I am perfectly happy to continue deeper guiding in other forums.

Xain ♥

[Miro]

Can you give me an idea of your background?
Have you followed any particular paths or teachers?
Do you belong to any specific Facebook groups?

Yeah, I'm 29y/old male from Europe - Slovakia. About 5 years ago I started doing self help. Got through many self help material - happiness, business, psychology. Then I learned about "the Matrix" around me and stuff going on inside me as well. Slowly I started being mindful in my day to day life - I started being mindful of my anger, sadness, subtle emotions... I took vipassana retreat and beside everyday meditation I practice mindfulness everywhere I go.. All day long. A lot of suffering disappeared just by "noticing" emotions. Awareness alone was very curative for my problems.

I have great mindfulness over my thoughts, actions, emotions... Although there's this strong feeling that "I" am the experiencer... Then I stumbled upon the thing called "no self", and "no free will". I started watching eckhart tolle videos, rupert spira videos, sam harris videos. After I started reading The book Gateless Gatecrashers - very eye-opening book for me [on the intellectual level]. Suddenly I started to have a feeling that my whole life was veiled by this "self" illusion. And I am the person who doesn't like to be delusional. I want to see through the illusion of self.

I'm not a member of any group. I don't have a facebook. I have very simple life... Sitting all day next to river, watching birds, ants, contemplating life etc. I don't have to earn money to the rest of my life. My life purpose is just "being", not doing.

Is the name 'Miro' Ok for this guidance, for you?

Yes. Miro is my real name. It is ok.

What exactly do you mean 'The Truth'?
Do you have any idea right now what this 'truth' is that you want to realise?
And why is that 'the truth'?
Give me an idea of where you intend to go here / your own perspective.

The Truth is what remains when illusion of the self is seen through.
The Truth is WHAT IS.
The Truth remains in a very center of the onion after we peel off all the layers. The biggest layer is the self.

And I know that "something" is missing in my life...

Can you explain a little more?
Again, this area isn't something we deal with in this guidance.
I'm happy to try and assist in a general sense if that would help.

I get what you mean. But isn't the reason "something is missing in life" found in every seeker before they post a thread on this forum? :-) ... For me "something is missing in life" means spiritual seeking.

Thank you Xain

Miro

[Xain]

Hi Miro

Sorry for the small delay - Let's get back on track.

Then I stumbled upon the thing called "no self", and "no free will". I started watching eckhart tolle videos, rupert spira videos, sam harris videos. After I started reading The book Gateless Gatecrashers - very eye-opening book for me [on the intellectual level]. Suddenly I started to have a feeling that my whole life was veiled by this "self" illusion. And I am the person who doesn't like to be delusional. I want to see through the illusion of self.

Ok, good.

Thank you for explaining your background.

Please use normal language and communication in our conversation. No fancy spiritual language is needed. In fact, special language may make things difficult between us.

You mentioned that you were happy to leave all expectations behind and this is good. It is very important.
All expectations will have an 'I' component.
'I will achieve peace', 'I will live a happier life', 'I will gain something special', 'I will become a special person'.
The ONLY THING in this guidance is to realise that all these expectations are an illusion.
There is no real 'I' - There has never been a real 'I' and there never will be.
It has all been based on self-referential 'circular' thoughts and misperceptions.
What use is an expectation going to be to an illusion?
However, peace can come as a by-product of the realisation. Has there ever been a 'real' I with problems? Will there be a 'real' I in the future that needs to fix themselves or other people?

The Truth is what remains when illusion of the self is seen through.
The Truth is WHAT IS.
The Truth remains in a very center of the onion after we peel off all the layers. The biggest layer is the self.

Well these are spiritual beliefs. Nothing wrong with them. You are right that the 'big' belief is the self.
However, for this guidance I will ask you put all spiritual, non-dual, religious and scientific beliefs completely to one side and approach things from a very very simple viewpoint. Spiritual ideas will not help you here.
We are examining deeply held beliefs, and the more ideas and beliefs a person has about things, the more difficult it will be to achieve any realisation. That is because our own thinking and assumptions holds us back.

I get what you mean. But isn't the reason "something is missing in life" found in every seeker before they post a thread on this forum? :-) ... For me "something is missing in life" means spiritual seeking.

Ok, good. Yes, if this realisation itself is wanted then that will be removed by realising 'no self'. It is my aim to guide you to a place where you are 100% certain that there is no inherently existing 'I', no 'real' self.

Xain ♥

[Miro]

Ok, good.

Thank you for explaining your background.

Please use normal language and communication in our conversation. No fancy spiritual language is needed. In fact, special language may make things difficult between us.

You mentioned that you were happy to leave all expectations behind and this is good. It is very important.
All expectations will have an 'I' component.
'I will achieve peace', 'I will live a happier life', 'I will gain something special', 'I will become a special person'.
The ONLY THING in this guidance is to realise that all these expectations are an illusion.
There is no real 'I' - There has never been a real 'I' and there never will be.
It has all been based on self-referential 'circular' thoughts and misperceptions.
What use is an expectation going to be to an illusion?
However, peace can come as a by-product of the realisation. Has there ever been a 'real' I with problems? Will there be a 'real' I in the future that needs to fix themselves or other people?

I will do my best to leave all expectations and fairy tales about NO SELF behind.

Ok but what about expectations without subject "I"? E.g. "Life will be more peaceful for itself" and not "MY life will be more peaceful" ...

Oh... I just realised that there is an "I" that expects Life to be more peaceful for itself. Ok scratch that.

Has there ever been a 'real' I with problems?
No there was not. "I" is not a problem for me... "I" is just a label. I think cause is that the problem happens to this body-mind organism, and after that "I" claims ans steals that problem.

Will there be a 'real' I in the future that needs to fix themselves or other people?

For me the strongest sense of "I" is felt when other people are looking to the eyes of this body-mind organism called Miro. I don't feel "I" when I am sitting next to the river or watching clouds all day.

If other people wouldn't be looking to my eyes or talking to me, the self would have been a lot weaker.

Well these are spiritual beliefs. Nothing wrong with them. You are right that the 'big' belief is the self.
However, for this guidance I will ask you put all spiritual, non-dual, religious and scientific beliefs completely to one side and approach things from a very very simple viewpoint. Spiritual ideas will not help you here.
We are examining deeply held beliefs, and the more ideas and beliefs a person has about things, the more difficult it will be to achieve any realisation. That is because our own thinking and assumptions holds us back.

Ok I'll put all "enlightenment" material aside. I will not watch or read anything other than this thread.

Ok, good. Yes, if this realisation itself is wanted then that will be removed by realising 'no self'. It is my aim to guide you to a place where you are 100% certain that there is no inherently existing 'I', no 'real' self.

Thank you Xain, I'm ready.

Miro

[Xain]

Ok but what about expectations without subject "I"? E.g. "Life will be more peaceful for itself" and not "MY life will be more peaceful" ...

All these ideas have their place - But as I mentioned, this is a guidance rather than a discussion about specific beliefs or ideas.

The only thing that the guidance is for is for you to realise there is no inherent self, no 'real' Miro. Never has been. Never will be.

problem happens to this body-mind organism

Body-mind organism is a scientific phrase. It's the same as saying 'I', the self, Miro. A separate 'thing' that life seems to happen to.

Just some rules to begin with:

1) Try to reply at least once a day - If you can't because you know you are going to be busy, just let me know before-hand. I will do the same.
2) Put all non-dual, religious, scientific and spiritual beliefs completely to one-side.
These beliefs and ideas won't help you here at all.
3) Put all expectations aside other than the one realisation I mentioned above. That's all we are interested in.
Expectations will not help you here at all.
3) Be completely honest with me - And be completely honest with yourself - I need to know what is really clear for you.
Only ever reply with what is totally clear to you - Don't reply with what you think is the right answer, and don't reply with what you think I might want to hear. This is your guidance for your realisation. It will only happen if you are honest and genuine.

Any other questions? Ready to begin?

Xain ♥

[Miro]

I agree with all the rules you wrote. I'm ready.

I'll be honest and genuine.

Miro

[Xain]

Cool.

Ok, let's begin.

First of all, what would you say the word 'I' points to? What is 'I' responsible for? What does 'I' do?
Remember to keep things simple.
Would you say (for example) that 'I (Miro) is looking at a screen right now, and reading words off it'.
Give me an idea of what you currently believe in simple terms.

Xain ♥

[Miro]

I just need to tell you beforehand that I somehow learned to talk to myself in the third person a few months ago... That happened after I started reading enlightenment stuff.. I thought that it will help me to realise no self... I thought that would be a shortcut. I used this "method" when I was talking to myself, but when I was talking to others I normally used "I" in conversation. E.g. "Miro is typing on a keyboard"... Basically that have helped me ease many sufferings - they happened to character Miro, not to "ME"... Basically I was deceiving myself...

Ok, now I answer your questions:

First of all, what would you say the word 'I' points to? What is 'I' responsible for? What does 'I' do?

My current experience:

"I" [Miro] is label that refers to the body & mind.
"I" is not responsible for anything because "I" has no free will.
Choices of this body or mind are happening by themselves.
Life is just happening to this body by cause and effect.
Life is happening to this body through senses and after that "I" claims the experience.
"I" doesn't do anything.

Eyes are looking at a screen right now, and reading words off it. Eyes belong to this body. Visuals that eyes see are appearing in the mind. - there is no "I" in this experience.

When "I" becomes conscious and consciously decide to do something... = I DID THAT
When "I" is not conscious or aware, the life is just happening on auto-pilot... = LIFE DID THAT

"I" is temporary and appears only in thoughts.

...

Okay I was really paying attention to my experience. I was writing this for more than 2 hours... :-)

Miro

[Xain]

Basically that have helped me ease many sufferings - they happened to character Miro, not to "ME"... Basically I was deceiving myself...

Sorry, I don't understand this section of what you have written.
There are three 'I's.
One that things were happening to (a character 'Miro').
One that things were not happening to ('Me').
And another one that was being deceived.

No change in language is needed in this guidance at any stage. No special terms or phrases are needed either.

"I" [Miro] is label that refers to the body & mind.

Good.
So the 'I' is the body here. The 'I' also has a mind (thoughts)

"I" is not responsible for anything because "I" has no free will.

How do you know?
So it's 100% clear to you that nothing you have written had any choice in it whatsoever?
And you have no choice in anything that you are going to say to me in a reply?
(Remember - I want your HONEST BELIEFS).

"I" doesn't do anything

Hmm . . . So we have established that the 'I' points to the body and also the mind.
Yet, the 'I' doesn't do anything?
That seems a strange thing to say.

Eyes are looking at a screen right now, and reading words off it. Eyes belong to this body.

So the eyes belong to the body, and the body (being 'I') IS doing something - It's reading words off the screen.

When "I" becomes conscious and consciously decide to do something... = I DID THAT
When "I" is not conscious or aware, the life is just happening on auto-pilot... = LIFE DID THAT

Ignore 'life' for the moment, and concentrate only on 'I'.
Bringing in other ideas won't assist with the guidance.

Let me just state again - I want you to answer from what you TRULY BELIEVE.
Things you've read, things you've been taught by spiritual teachers and other spiritual ideas will not help here.

Xain ♥

[Miro]

"I" [Miro] is label that refers to the body & mind.

Good.
So the 'I' is the body here. The 'I' also has a mind (thoughts)

A label is not a thing itself.
I would say "I" or "Miro" are labels for another labels - "body" & "mind". Just a language game...
It feels like there's something more than language... Hmm
But what is that "something" which thinks it knows "I" is just a label...?

"I" is not responsible for anything because "I" has no free will.

How do you know?
So it's 100% clear to you that nothing you have written had any choice in it whatsoever?
And you have no choice in anything that you are going to say to me in a reply?
(Remember - I want your HONEST BELIEFS).

I don't know what is going to be my next thought. I looked many times in my direct experience and there is no chance to know what is going to be my next thought. And thoughts produce actions. What is the next thought that will come in my mind? - I don't know = I have no control over my actions that will follow. Everything I write to you is based on my previous experience. I could not decide otherwise. Everything I have done in my life was cause and effect. I have no choice in anything that I'm going to say in a reply.

"I" doesn't do anything

Hmm . . . So we have established that the 'I' points to the body and also the mind.
Yet, the 'I' doesn't do anything?
That seems a strange thing to say.

As a label it doesn't do anything. As a "thing itself" [without labels] it does everything. It's hard to put it into words...

Eyes are looking at a screen right now, and reading words off it. Eyes belong to this body.

So the eyes belong to the body, and the body (being 'I') IS doing something - It's reading words off the screen.

... I realised we really need labels to communicate. Ok. I am still somehow puzzled about "I" = "Body"... Do I need to LOOK more deeply? It feels like - The Body is real, I is not real... The body can be perceived by senses. "I" cannot be perceived by senses.

Thank you Xain.

Miro

[Xain]

A label is not a thing itself.
I would say "I" or "Miro" are labels for another labels - "body" & "mind". Just a language game...
It feels like there's something more than language... Hmm
But what is that "something" which thinks it knows "I" is just a label...?

This isn't about 'trying to work out the right answer'.

It's very difficult to understand where you are coming from at the moment.
The conversation seems to be lost in a mess of conflicting ideas and beliefs, perhaps some which are still from your non-dual study and what you have read.
None of this will help you.

I am only interested in what you truly believe. That's all.
If you cannot tell me your beliefs, I cannot address them.

Do you believe you have no free-will?
Not just an idea about it, but truly believe there is no choice?
That you have no choice at all about what you are going to type next?
Or do you believe that you (Miro) is going to choose what to say?

Put aside all the ideas and tell me what you honestly believe.

Xain ♥