Underlying bliss/peace - take me back/uncover again?

[Thisisit]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I met a lady who is a guide here. We had similar experiences of a shift in consciousness/awakening, both in Africa. She recommended this site & to look into 'Direct Pointing'. Being integrated in natural world/wildlife for extended periods in Africa kickstarted my awakening & adding in meditation a huge shift suddenly happened one day (really quite scary at first, but rolled with it). Time slowed down like in slo-mo & seemed to lose ability to engage in anything where I made physical mistakes (effortless). Also had super awareness/focus, serene bliss & peace & felt a completely seemeless oneness with all things/no sense of 'I' any more. Everything was just happening & interconnected. A perfect order & understanding 'It just Is'. It lasted 12 days, even though at first my fear was I'd 'lost my mind, but achieved such states twice since too. 'Nature's underlying ecstasy' is key in being in this state for 'me' & concluded 'There is no I, only we' & no control. Also, this included abilities to learn super-quick, be 100% focused, read people easily & not get attached to any thoughts, as well as an ecstatic appreciation of beautiful things all the way down to enjoying the simplest of previously monotonous tasks...

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
To uncover this underlying state of (full?) consciousness again, or simply be mindful & have this awareness of 'This is simply it'. Not sure why it isn't, since experienced it? Thus wanting some direction if possible, rather than seeking 'ideal physical & mental conditions' to make this conducive to happening again for a couple of weeks (so beautiful & what feels like the pinnacle of human consciousness maybe?). Thus removing unnecessary suffering brought about by being so attached to meaningless thoughts & allowing the peace and bliss that is there, to be. Allowing things to happen very naturally, as has happened, but hopefully in the daily stresses & strains of modern life. Some kind of right livelihood arising from starting with 'It' & not this 'perceived reality' & strange society humans have created feels possible from realisations when I was just simply conscious. Your site mentions a lot about not 'wanting' things & just accepting the lack of 'self', which makes complete sense...

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
Lately I have been furiously trying to solidify & 'confirm' these experiences via reading/racking my brain over it (getting teary a lot & breaking down). My whole life I've wanted to cut through the rubbish on the surface & to what I now believe is maybe simply 'It'/just happening. Nature is key, as the small initial spark (mistreatment of animals/ignorance) & 'seeing it as it is'. It's uncanny how the words & phrases that I came out with as a result of this epiphany-type realisation are SO similar to the philosopher I've since discovered - Alan Watts (he was 50 years ahead!) I practice meditation daily, volunteer at mindfulness classes after completing an 8 week course, belive greatly in nature as a meditation too, go to retreats & am now suddenly interested in philosophy/enlightenment etc!

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 10

[Canfora]

Hi Thisisit and welcome to the LU forum!

I'm Sandra and I'm in Portugal. I can be your guide if that's okay with you.

Thank you for your introduction. You seem to be longing for a past experience as a way to avoid your present experience. Can you see this pattern in what you wrote? Do you think the past can be relieved?

It's only in this present and alive moment that this inquiry can be done. Are you willing to have a fresh look to what is going on - even if you think that a past experience is way better than this one? How much do you want to see the truth?

I suppose that you know the only "goal" of this forum is the seeing of the illusion of a separate self?

Maybe you could tell me what do you think this self is - those experiences you describe, who/what do you think they belong to? Who/what do you think wants to experience them again? What do you think the "I" is?

Looking forward to your answer,
S

[Thisisit]

Hi Sandra,

Yes, that is fine you being the guide, thankyou :-)

Haha, yes this makes sense. It seems strange why I cannot accept this, after past events. This pattern is also evident yes, re-reading my message! Did you mean 're-lived'? If so, no, but to live in this manner - thus the struggle! It has only been like this when immersed in nature & meditating etc. The 'natural state' of all beings...I don't know?

Yes, I am willing to have a fresh look at the present and alive moment - are you suggesting questioning this on a regular basis throughout the day (also see you have an app?) The truth of no I/me is vital & all there is, the universe is just happening...

Yes I understand the reason for this forum & understand the illusion of a separate self, but still get caught up in thoughts & the mind, so much in daily life.

I suppose the 'self' I allude to is this illusionary construct this brain has constructed/being played out at the moment as I 'think'? Feel like missing the point here already! But trying to answer freely...The thoughts definitely do not belong to ANYTHING, get this now - only the present moment IS. Why do I feel I need 'condition's to achieve 'this'? Deep down it is obvious there is no 'I'., but it's that I can't see myself walking round not saying 'I' or 'Me' to people or thinking in that context never again? Here we go again, talking about the future now!

Thanks,
David

[Thisisit]

Sorry, to reply again Sandra, but just remembering Nina said to not read to much around this & keep things simple, since already had some experience of no self? Should I read the book (have both 'Gateless gatecrashers' & 'Look') & or use the app (had started to look at it?). Also, would you recommend not reading other books on similar subjects am currently reading?

Thanks :-)

[Canfora]

Hi David, (thank you for sharing a name...)

I'm going to use the quote function in my reply. It would be nice if you do the same. You can learn how to use the quote function here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Did you mean 're-lived'? If so, no, but to live in this manner - thus the struggle! It has only been like this when immersed in nature & meditating etc. The 'natural state' of all beings...I don't know?

Ah... are you expecting to achieve a permanent state of being? Do you believe that permanent states exist?

I suppose the 'self' I allude to is this illusionary construct this brain has constructed/being played out at the moment as I 'think'? Feel like missing the point here already! But trying to answer freely...The thoughts definitely do not belong to ANYTHING, get this now - only the present moment IS. Why do I feel I need 'condition's to achieve 'this'? Deep down it is obvious there is no 'I'., but it's that I can't see myself walking round not saying 'I' or 'Me' to people or thinking in that context never again?

Don't worry with giving the "right" answers. To answer freely is the way to go. It's okay to use 'I' or 'Me' when thinking or talking to people and it is okay to have 'I' or 'Me' related thoughts. We aren't trying to change what is happening. We are looking to what is happening, to see what is going on.

Sorry, to reply again Sandra

That's okay, write as much as you feel like.

just remembering Nina said to not read to much around this & keep things simple, since already had some experience of no self? Should I read the book (have both 'Gateless gatecrashers' & 'Look') & or use the app (had started to look at it?). Also, would you recommend not reading other books on similar subjects am currently reading?

I think reading the LU book and the app is a good idea, unless it makes you think instead of doing the exercises and checking if what you're reading matches your experience. Yes, stop reading other books and seeing videos about these subjects for the time being. They can be too distracting and cause confusion.

since already had some experience of no self?

If it is true that a separate self doesn't exist, aren't all experiences being experienced without a self experiencing them? What makes you say a specific experience is the experience of no self? What makes this experience - that you are labeling as a no self experience - different from all the others?

Here we go again, talking about the future now!

Nice catch! Let's go back to this present aliveness, shall we? - on a side note, don't get too caught on the way I use language. I have to say something to make you see what I'm pointing at, which doesn't mean that what I'm saying should be written in gold... :)

I would like you to look at something. A hand or something that catches your attention. Observe that thing to the best of your ability and tell me how do you know it exists. Keep it simple, just give a simple description of experiencing the object (of how do you know it is there).

S

[Thisisit]

Ah... are you expecting to achieve a permanent state of being? Do you believe that permanent states exist?

No, life is impermanent & constantly in flux, but a way of being that is different to being caught up in thoughts for the majority of the time is possible?

I think reading the LU book and the app is a good idea, unless it makes you think instead of doing the exercises and checking if what you're reading matches your experience. Yes, stop reading other books and seeing videos about these subjects for the time being. They can be too distracting and cause confusion.

OK, but the book is from the perspective of others peoples experience & the Look one is picture prompts? It's going to be really hard to not read these things as I am so drawn to them - Mr Watts primarily in all forms as so much similarity, Sri Ramana Maharshi & others. They speak about direct pointing/non-dualism. However, I will leave them for now. Incidentally, I am on a nature retreat from Sun to Thu (still happy to check in, although worry will look at other stuff on phone!). Could be a good place to have clear mind on all this & look? Then small into the wild festival Fri to Mon. Hard life! Both conducive spaces at least?

If it is true that a separate self doesn't exist, aren't all experiences being experienced without a self experiencing them? What makes you say a specific experience is the experience of no self? What makes this experience - that you are labeling as a no self experience - different from all the others?

Yes, there is no self experiencing them...in theory! I feel like this is the natural underlying state of all things that was experienced - a bit like an animal or that humans are the only one misinterpreting now, by being caught up in the past/present/thoughts? Actually, no, also NOW is too or theoretically now is the ONLY experience, BUT currently from a skewed perspective/pre-conditioned view of reality?

I would like you to look at something. A hand or something that catches your attention. Observe that thing to the best of your ability and tell me how do you know it exists. Keep it simple, just give a simple description of experiencing the object (of how do you know it is there).

I looked at a pair of sunglasses. I know they are there as 'I' can see them, feel them in hand, hear them clicking as I pick them up. I tried smelling them but it was too faint & tasting them slightly but I just ate some peanuts, so that was hard! If I now look at my hand - I can see it, feel it if clench or move or feel a slight coldness of the surrounding air, hear when I clap & taste if I hadn't just eaten peanuts! Also, I come back to thinking, that I know I have a hand as I would know if I didn't already, by experience of this mind...!?

[Thisisit]

Also, I keep thinking about this no 'I' or apparent 'lack of self at the controls' - but if I chose to I could break those sunglasses or hurt my hand I could...actually, I could but don't, is this also why there is no I, as that would happen if it happened?

Thanks Sandra,

David

[Canfora]

No, life is impermanent & constantly in flux, but a way of being that is different to being caught up in thoughts for the majority of the time is possible?

What's wrong with thinking?
Or is the identification with thoughts that you would like to get rid of?

OK, but the book is from the perspective of others peoples experience & the Look one is picture prompts? It's going to be really hard to not read these things as I am so drawn to them - Mr Watts primarily in all forms as so much similarity, Sri Ramana Maharshi & others. They speak about direct pointing/non-dualism. However, I will leave them for now. Incidentally, I am on a nature retreat from Sun to Thu (still happy to check in, although worry will look at other stuff on phone!). Could be a good place to have clear mind on all this & look? Then small into the wild festival Fri to Mon. Hard life! Both conducive spaces at least?

Hard life indeed :) Hope you're going to enjoy the nature retreat and have fun!

I understand the preference for being in nature but what we are looking at doesn't require a specific environment to be seen. Or a clear mind. It just takes a look to check if a separate self is present here and now. If you look now, can you see a you?

Yes, there is no self experiencing them...in theory!

The existence of both "self" and "no self" are beliefs. Unless you can find a self. Or a no self :)

I feel like this is the natural underlying state of all things that was experienced - a bit like an animal or that humans are the only one misinterpreting now, by being caught up in the past/present/thoughts? Actually, no, also NOW is too or theoretically now is the ONLY experience, BUT currently from a skewed perspective/pre-conditioned view of reality?

You are trying to understand how things are. That's okay. The usual way we deal with what we are trying to grasp is by thinking. Unfortunately thinking isn't going to help you here because thinking is what is causing the illusion in the first place.

I looked at a pair of sunglasses. I know they are there as 'I' can see them, feel them in hand, hear them clicking as I pick them up. I tried smelling them but it was too faint & tasting them slightly but I just ate some peanuts, so that was hard! If I now look at my hand - I can see it, feel it if clench or move or feel a slight coldness of the surrounding air, hear when I clap & taste if I hadn't just eaten peanuts! Also, I come back to thinking, that I know I have a hand as I would know if I didn't already, by experience of this mind...!?

So you know that the pair of sunglasses, the hand and the peanuts are being experienced because they can be seen, felt, heard, smelled and tasted. And thoughts about them also reinforce the idea that they are real. Good. Nicely done, David.

I would like you to bear with my (probably strange) requests a little more and try the watermelon exercise next, it is one of the LU classics. In the above "experience" you've looked mostly at how something real can be perceived with the senses.

The watermelon exercise is also about perception, but this time using mainly thoughts. Here it is:

Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it. Then open your eyes:
> What happened to the melon?
> How about the sensation that was so believable?
> Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
> Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

If needed try the exercise more than once as a way to find the answers for the above questions.

[Thisisit]

What's wrong with thinking?
Or is the identification with thoughts that you would like to get rid of?

The identification. Thoughts in general seem to be mainly regurgitating stuff already been over a lot & trying to come to some (unlikely) conclusion about it all.

I understand the preference for being in nature but what we are looking at doesn't require a specific environment to be seen. Or a clear mind. It just takes a look to check if a separate self is present here and now. If you look now, can you see a you?

I don't think I see one, but still have this feeling there is one in my head & this feeling I have free will.

The existence of both "self" and "no self" are beliefs. Unless you can find a self. Or a no self :)

That's a way I hadn't look at it! Everyone around me is trying to define themselves (& moreso plans for 'me'!) this evening at a family meal for example. It has quite upset me as big stuff/changes got to occur in my life (having to sell house now too). Again, upon writing this I am not talking about the present or the direct pointing thing, but it is on my mind & causing stress. As I was calm before all this & I tried to explain about how being present is the key. Everything else just happens & thus is the best way to experience life.

You are trying to understand how things are. That's okay. The usual way we deal with what we are trying to grasp is by thinking. Unfortunately thinking isn't going to help you here because thinking is what is causing the illusion in the first place.

I had a flash earlier that it was the thought of TRYING to remove this self/thoughts is like getting things round the wrong way & holding this back. I am trying to look at direct experiences in order to get to the bottom of this illusionary 'self'.

> What happened to the melon?
> How about the sensation that was so believable?
> Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
> Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

> I had a visualisation of it, but knew it was not actually there.
> I still felt like I could 'feel' it via the position of my hands after opening my eyes, even though it was not there? I wonder if this is as I enjoy some levels of fantasy?
> There was no melon
> The content was simply a mental picture construct of what I think a melon looks like, but not real no. I was deluding my'self' (or what was I deluding?)

[Canfora]

Hi David!

Thank you for your comments, sharing and answers. I can see you have a intense curiosity about what is going on, that's good. In your answers there are some clues about things we can look at, but at the moment I would like you to focus here:

I had a visualisation of it, but knew it was not actually there.

How do you know the pair of sunglasses, the hand and the peanuts are real?
How do you know the watermelon isn't real?
In other words, what's the difference between something real and something imaginary?

Take care,
S

[Thisisit]

How do you know the pair of sunglasses, the hand and the peanuts are real?
How do you know the watermelon isn't real?
In other words, what's the difference between something real and something imaginary?

I know the sunglasses are real due to the physical sensory feedback I have from them - the 5 senses. Also, I label them based on previous knowledge of what sunglasses look like, from memory.

I know the watermelon isn't real as I am not using any of these senses to provide me with identifcation. It is reminding me of this meditation that really helped me get into the afore-mentioned 'reality check'/state of peace/bliss - visualisation, similar to the metta bhavana in Triratna buddhism, if you know this? Also, even my pre-conditioned mind is aware closing my eyes & 'thinking' about a melon does not construct a physical melon, but I can 'dupe' my mind, much in the way that if I say to someone 'don't think of a green banana', they will...

The difference between something real & imaginary is that it can be defined by at least one of the human senses? On that note, I believe there are potentially more senses we have & are evolving, so maybe it is not limited to five. The thing I am struggling with in relation to this applying to 'me' is how consciousness manifests this 'me'/body/being. Also, the Father Christmas anology I read makes sense & once you know you can never believe again. But why, when I have had an extremely strong realisation/period of understanding there is no 'I', do I not currently accept this entirely?

[Thisisit]

ps: sorry for missing the niceties of saying 'Hi Sandra' & 'thankyou' etc.! Really appreciate you spending this time talking to me about all this :-) xx

[Canfora]

ps: sorry for missing the niceties of saying 'Hi Sandra' & 'thankyou' etc.! Really appreciate you spending this time talking to me about all this :-) xx

That's okay! You can skip the niceties :)

I know the sunglasses are real due to the physical sensory feedback I have from them - the 5 senses. Also, I label them based on previous knowledge of what sunglasses look like, from memory.

And is the labeling necessary to experience the sunglasses? Would they disappear if you don't think about them?

It is reminding me of this meditation that really helped me get into the afore-mentioned 'reality check'/state of peace/bliss - visualisation, similar to the metta bhavana in Triratna buddhism, if you know this? Also, even my pre-conditioned mind is aware closing my eyes & 'thinking' about a melon does not construct a physical melon, but I can 'dupe' my mind, much in the way that if I say to someone 'don't think of a green banana', they will...

When you write that you can "dupe" your mind, do you mean that you can be aware of a thought and NOT believe in it?

Does that mean there is a thought saying something like: "oh, I have this huge watermelon in my hands, it's so heavy" and then a thought follows saying something like "hmm... I know this watermelon doesn't exist, what a silly exercise".

If thoughts can be contradictory, how do you know which one is closer to what can be experienced? For example, you think your keys are inside a drawer. How can you be sure they are there if thoughts can "dupe" you?

On that note, I believe there are potentially more senses we have & are evolving, so maybe it is not limited to five.

Leave beliefs to the side if you can. They are beliefs after all :)
If there is a self present here and now you can sense it the same way you can sense your house keys, no? If it can't be sensed, isn't that an evidence that the self is as imaginary as the watermelon/Santa Claus?

The thing I am struggling with in relation to this applying to 'me' is how consciousness manifests this 'me'/body/being.

If you are struggling you are thinking instead of looking. And after reading this sentence I would say that instead of checking in your experience if what you're writting is true, you are writting something that you have learned, like if it is truth.

Have a look and see if you can find any evidence that your above sentence matches what is present here and now. Can you find a 'me'/body/being while using your senses? Can you experience a consciousness manifesting stuff?? How do you know if what you're saying is true?

Also, the Father Christmas anology I read makes sense & once you know you can never believe again. But why, when I have had an extremely strong realisation/period of understanding there is no 'I', do I not currently accept this entirely?

Can you show me this I? This I that doesn't accept it's non existance?
Is this I as real as the peanuts or as imaginary as the watermelon?
How do you know this story about an I that doesn't accept is true?
:)

Take care,
S

[Thisisit]

Hi Sandra ;-) not forgetting this time hehe

And is the labeling necessary to experience the sunglasses? Would they disappear if you don't think about them?

The label is not necessary but it is how we humans do things in the main? No they would not disappear

When you write that you can "dupe" your mind, do you mean that you can be aware of a thought and NOT believe in it?

Does that mean there is a thought saying something like: "oh, I have this huge watermelon in my hands, it's so heavy" and then a thought follows saying something like "hmm... I know this watermelon doesn't exist, what a silly exercise".

If thoughts can be contradictory, how do you know which one is closer to what can be experienced? For example, you think your keys are inside a drawer. How can you be sure they are there if thoughts can "dupe" you?

Yes, I can be aware of a thought that there is no melon, but still fantasize there is one. I know it is a sill exercise when you first suggest this. However, I am happy to go along with it & 'feel' the melon. That is a good question re: what is closer to what can be experienced. If I think my keys are in a drawer I am using memory - thoughts can be incorrect though as that could be an educated guess, a feeling from yesterday where they were & not today, etc. All I was saying is that my mind can play out KNOWN illusions, as part of its function?

Can you show me this I? This I that doesn't accept it's non existance?
Is this I as real as the peanuts or as imaginary as the watermelon?
How do you know this story about an I that doesn't accept is true?
:)

It's funny when I see 'I' I think 'eye' as its out often our primary sense! I cannot show me this I, apart from showing you my whole body as this entirty?This 'I' is definitely not as real as the peanuts, as my body may not be an 'I' or just a label, but personality seems part of the equation of 'me'? I am finding it hard to answer the last bit...the profound nature of my past experiences relating to 'There is no I' dictates my belief. But the supposition of 'I', 'accepting' or 'truth' are a bit hard to fathom, if being honest...

[Canfora]

Hi David!

Thank you for your answers. I'm going to change our approach, hope you don't mind. I want you to start to notice the difference between two 'modes' of experience, one direct and the other via the mode of thinking.

Please sit for two minutes and simply notice all that happens.
Make a list of all that is experienced.
Then, when you have finished, after each item on the list add either "(E" or "(T)".
Then let me have your list.

(E) is for each item which is experienced via the senses eg. "hunger pangs in stomach (E)"
(T) is for those items which are thought eg "What shall I eat for dinner this evening?"(T) or 'When was last meal?" (T)

So here we are noticing the difference between all that IS happening ie the firsthand RAW experience in this moment (E), on the one hand, and all that is NOT actually happening except in thinking ie thought matter such as explanations, assumptions, mental commentary, interpretation, memories, speculations, mental inferences, beliefs, intellectual debating etc etc (T)

Take care,
S