Please nudge me through the gate

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Joyce
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Please nudge me through the gate

Postby Joyce » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:40 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
My life has improved immeasurably after ten years of action such as reading, contemplation, meditation and retreat but I feel I need the push that is talked about in the LU Buddha at the Gas Pump interview. I am also very motivated to help others, particularly in the area of intimate human relationship which has been such a struggle and passion for me. I know I will be able do that better as I evolve and am motivated strongly to do this.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I would simply like to go through the gate. Sometimes my experience is so full that I feel I have and then I am not sure again. The major 'thing' that gets in the way is my yearning for a close and connected relationship with a man and I am still a little confused around this although much less so. Would be fabulous to be clear in my experience around this. It is a major human dilemma and I am motivated to help others not to go through what I have suffered (or maybe just to go through it quicker).

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have spent about ten years reading, talking to others, in retreat, studying Tantra which is a real passion for me. I have spent time with most of the well known teachers. My favourites are Mooji and Adyashanti. The spiritual life has always pulled me i realise but I did not focus on it until after the break up of a long term relationship ten years ago.
Tantra is a real passion for me as I sense that I can work positively with the body and relationship to face my greatest blockers. I have recently received Yoni massage which has felt very grounding.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

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LindaR
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby LindaR » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:21 am

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. Glad you are here!

Would you like me to call you Joyce? Or something else?

My name is Linda, and I might be willing to look with you, if you like. But first, let’s make sure what we offer here is what you are looking for.
I am also very motivated to help others, particularly in the area of intimate human relationship which has been such a struggle and passion for me.
Would you still be interested in this if you discovered that 'others' do not need your help in the area of intimate human relationships?
I know I will be able do that better as I evolve and am motivated strongly to do this.
1. Be able to do that better than what? Better than who?
2. Evolve into what, exactly?
The major 'thing' that gets in the way is my yearning for a close and connected relationship with a man and I am still a little confused around this although much less so.
If you found that this is simply a thought story with no basis in truth, would you cling to the story? Or are you interested in seeing it for what it is…at all cost?

Our sole purpose here will be to look until it is clearly seen that there is no ‘Joyce’‘I’‘me’ that can be found anywhere. No ‘Joyce’ who controls, decides, directs or manages life. No 'Joyce' who can be motivated, evolved, or help 'others'. We will look until it is clearly seen that life is simply unfolding freely on its own.

Is this what you are interested in exploring? If so, them I may be able to assist.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

With Love,
Linda

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Joyce
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby Joyce » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:25 am

Hello Linda,

Thanks so much for contacting me. Yes please call me Joyce - it is not my real name but a very special one for me. Yes I feel I want to know the truth whatever the consequences but I guess I have an expectation that I will lose some of the intense pain I feel at times, especially around intimate relationship. I also can see that my motivations might change but would not expect them to disappear all together. I have listened to Elena talk about her motivation to help others and it resonated with me. Maybe there is misunderstanding here but she does say how wonderful it is to see others pass through the Gateless Gate and surely it is. I feel the area of intimate human relationship is one many of us get stuck on and would like to help others not to go through the pain that I have been through - I am in my 60s now. As I write all of this I am imagining the shower of pointers you will give in response to my use of I! I guess its not the words itself that is the problem rather the place from which I am using it?

With respect to being better - I guess I mean more able to help if I am not in the way - so better than before. I accept that could mean I will have no motivation to help at all. I wasn't meaning better than another person and I don't feel I will evolve into anything - or hopefully I will evolve into more nothing. I feel so strongly intellectually that there is no me but am so aware that I behave and feel much of the time like there is - me responds much less in negative ways than ever before except in this one area which has made life much more enjoyable - I feel I am just scratching the surface though.

Yes I can see that my yearning for a close and connected relationship is certainly a story but that doesn't stop the feeling being there in my body or the pain I feel when the closeness is not reciprocated. To be in a place where life just flows freely - that's certainly where I want to be - and I even feel that a little at times - happy to let all my ideas go although I have to be honest and say I struggle to feel I will lose the motivation to do something for others.

Thanks so much for being there so that I can even try and articulate this - feels like a great relief to do even that to someone who gets it.

With gratitude

Ruth

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LindaR
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby LindaR » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:48 pm

Hi Joyce,
Thank you for all that. Beautifully open and honest, which is exactly what is needed.

We will address much of what you said as we explore together but let’s get a few guidelines and housekeeping issues out of the way first.

1.Write at least once a day, even if it is just to say you need more time.

2. During our time together, refrain from reading other threads on this site, books and watching videos from teachers and philosophers. While you are here, we will be focusing on your direct experience only. Spiritual teachers and philosophers cannot help you in this exploration. This is about your experience only.

3. We will journey together as two friends, side by side. l will ask questions, and you agree to look deeply in direct experience with complete honesty, and provide a response.

Also, for both of our benefit, please learn to use the quote function. It will eliminate a lot of confusion when reading and responding to questions. Instructions are here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Lastly, please read our disclaimer at http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Let me know that you are okay with these, and then we will begin.

It would be good to know what time zone you are in. I am in the U.S. Eastern Standard Time.

With Love,
Linda

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Joyce
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby Joyce » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:11 pm

Hello Linda,

Yes good with all of this and I understand. I am GMT.

Look forward to hearing more from you.

Thanks so much.

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LindaR
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby LindaR » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:48 pm

Hi Joyce,
Great. Let’s get rolling :-).
Yes I feel I want to know the truth whatever the consequences
Excellent.
but I guess I have an expectation that I will lose some of the intense pain I feel at times, especially around intimate relationship.
Thank you for the honesty. It is likely, with honest looking on your part, that by the end of our exploration together there will be a shift in perception that does indeed lessen the mental suffering that is commonly experienced by humans. However, you should also know that in many cases, the sensations occurring in direct experience are many times, felt more intensely, not less. It is different for everyone.
I also can see that my motivations might change but would not expect them to disappear all together.
Wonderful, Joyce. And again, this is different for everyone.

Once the illusion of a separate self is seen through, it seems to open up space, so-to-speak. The world around looks the same, but to varying degrees, the addictive, consistent, habitual thoughts around ‘I’ ’me’ no longer make sense anymore. For some, they lose a sense of motivation. For others, there becomes an unfolding of what you may currently consider ‘helping others’. Or it could be a zillion other happening, or no significant happening at all. We never know how life will unfold, do we?

But we have found that it is generally expectations that are the biggest hindrance for people, when looking to see through the illusion of a separate self. So it’s important to take a close look throughout our exploration together, and see what expectations might be lingering in the background. When I suspect there is an expectation lurking about, I will bring it up for us to look into, okay?

For now, I would like you to consider carefully, if you could put these expectations, and all others, aside and just focus on the process, allowing life to unfold, as life unfolds? Would that be okay?

Assuming you are okay with that, I would like you to read the paragraph below again, several times. This time really pay attention to what comes up for you as you read it. Is there fear? Excitement? Disbelief? Something else? What sensations are being felt in the body as you read the statement? Give me a full account, please.

There is no ‘Joyce’‘I’‘me’ that can be found anywhere. No ‘Joyce’ who controls, decides, directs or manages life. No 'Joyce' who can be motivated, evolved, or help 'others'. There is simply life unfolding freely on its own.

Excited to be here with you, Joyce.

Much love,
Linda

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Joyce
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby Joyce » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:08 pm

Hello Linda,

Really sorry but not yet mastered the quoting technique - I have sent a mail asking for help. Regarding the fact that sensations may be more keenly felt - that is fine - feeling is wonderful - suffering which is mind based is so horrible.

Yes please do bring up expectations - there are lots lingering.

OK so in answer to the question:

"There is no Joyce, I, me that can be found anywhere" - this feels true intellectually but I know its not real as Joyce still gets hurt - particularly by a man that I am close to. I have little negative feeling towards 'him' these days but I know I am still not free when I suffer.

"No Joyce who controls, directs or manages life" - feels a bit scary because of loss of control but mostly a feeling of wouldn't that be great. As I write this I realise I am telling you what is going on in my head and not what I am feeling in my body as you asked. In my body I do feel the fear as a dull sensation in my abdominal area but its no big deal.

"No Joyce who can be motivated, evolved or help others" - this is a much stronger feeling (and thought) - particularly the bit about helping others? The thought comes up "what would be left" and this is felt in my gut much more strongly as a fear of nothing of me being left. It is akin to the intense feelings I have had about dying - what of 'me' survives and the likely nothing in terms of my person used to give me a really strong gut fear although that is much less now.

Even with all the above feelings there is a real sense of excitement at being here and talking to you.

Thanks so much again

Joyce

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Joyce
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby Joyce » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:55 pm

Hello again Linda,

Just reading through everything again and feel there is more to add. Also going to try the quote technique!
but I know I am still not free when I suffer
There is a strong realisation that 'Is' don't get free and this is blocking something shifting but it is still more mind based rather than felt.
For now, I would like you to consider carefully, if you could put these expectations, and all others, aside and just focus on the process, allowing life to unfold, as life unfolds? Would that be okay?
On reading and reading this request there is a realisation that yes there is a huge willingness to try to do this but that it will be difficult in practice and as I write this there is a strong sense that it is difficult because there is a strong sense of a Joyce that believes it will be difficult. Feel like I am going round in circles so will stop.

Thanks again

Joyce

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LindaR
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby LindaR » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:37 am

Hi Joyce,
Thank you again for those honest, full answers. Nicely articulated and very helpful in identifying where to focus.
On reading and reading this request there is a realisation that yes there is a huge willingness to try to do this but that it will be difficult in practice and as I write this there is a strong sense that it is difficult because there is a strong sense of a Joyce that believes it will be difficult. Feel like I am going round in circles so will stop.
No worries, Joyce. All that is needed is the willingness and commitment to look. Shortly we will dig into this "strong sense of a Joyce that believes it will be difficult" to see what is actually happening.

But first, before we dig into all of that, let’s spend some time getting familiar with what is meant by direct (or actual) experience. Having a clear understanding of the difference between what is directly, or actually experienced and what are thoughts, is foundational to everything we will explore together.

Simply stated, direct experience is the data from the senses (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching), prior to interpretation by the mind. Direct experience is what is happening here and now. It is the only provable way we have to determine what is factual. We experience thoughts arising in direct experience also. But instead of accepting the contents of thoughts as factual, we will investigate, and perhaps discover that the content of thoughts can never be true.

To get a good look at direct experience, I invite you to spend some time to complete the following exercises and then report back what you discover:

Exercise 1:
Think of where you last placed your house/car keys. Maybe they are currently in your pocket, purse, key ring, a drawer, or basket. Don’t go get them though. Just think about where they are. Imagine in your mind how they feel in your hand. Notice (in your mind) how many keys are on the key ring. Notice the weight, texture, shape and design of the keys. Look (again, in your mind) at any lettering or designs on the keys.

Now go and get your keys. Hold the keys in your hand. Feel the texture, weight, shape and design of the keys. Look at how many keys are actually on the key ring. Look at the designs and lettering on the keys.

Report back the difference between the imagined keys and the actual experience of the keys.

Exercise 2:
Get a pen or pencil and lay it beside you, but out of view.
Now imagine, in your mind, that you are holding the pen (don’t actually hold it). Think about how the plastic or metal feels to the touch. In your mind, notice the hardness. Notice the mental images around the weight, length, diameter of the pen. Imagine how any special characteristics of the pen, like groves, lines, or other designs feel to the touch.

Now pick the pen up. Feel the plastic or metal of the pen. Feel the hardness and the weight of the pen. See the length and diameter. Look at and feel the design.

Report back what was the difference between experiencing the thought of the pen and directly experiencing the pen? Did one feel more alive than the other?

Looking forward to reading what you report back.

Warmly,
Linda

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Joyce
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby Joyce » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:10 pm

Hi Linda,

Thanks for your post. I have printed it out and will contemplate on a long journey I have to make this evening. Will be tomorrow before I get back to you.

With many, many thanks for your time.

Joyce

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LindaR
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby LindaR » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:21 pm

That sounds perfect, Joyce. Thank you for letting me know. xx

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Joyce
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby Joyce » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:30 pm

Hi Linda,

It has been interesting looking at direct experience as although I have done this many times before I don’t feel I have done it quite so closely. The question that came up outside of the exercises was ‘this feeling I have in my gut much of the time – is that direct experience? Surely it must be?’

When I did the exercises they were both very similar. When I felt and looked at the keys rather than imagined them in my mind it was such a richer experience. There was the difference in temperature between the plastic key and the other metals keys which were colder to the touch. Also I had not remembered to imagine the tassle that I attached to these keys many years ago and how the many strands of cotton woven together felt and the wooden ball at the end. So many things I had missed. The sound of the keys knocking together. I felt the intricate notches along the three yale keys and noticed that two keys had notches both sides and two only on one side.

The pen was a silver metal one and again it was much more beautiful to the touch than I had imagined it and very warm where it had been lying in the sun. I want to say it felt elegant and smooth. It glinted in the sunlight and I noticed and felt the engraving The Dorchester down the side of the pen. With both objects I felt them more than looked at them and it was good to roll them around in my hand. So yes they both felt more alive when I looked at them, felt them and heard the keys jangling.

It is quite hard for me not to listen to tapes of spiritual teachers when I am driving and I guess in some ways they are a distraction. Not many thoughts have come up. That might be because the scenery is so beautiful where I am and this is a wonderful way to experience directly. I have had thoughts around just looking at the trees, the sky, the hills, the animals and not labelling them! There has also been a heaviness today following a text last night from someone who was close and is no longer and expresses something that feels to me like sadness. Is this my sadness?

Looking forward to hearing back from you Linda and once again much appreciation.

Joyce

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LindaR
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby LindaR » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:38 am

Hi Joyce,
Beautiful job on the exercises!
The question that came up outside of the exercises was ‘this feeling I have in my gut much of the time – is that direct experience? Surely it must be?’
Sure. For our purposes that is considered a ‘feeling’ which is in the ‘touch’ category.
There has also been a heaviness today following a text last night from someone who was close and is no longer and expresses something that feels to me like sadness. Is this my sadness?
Okay sweetheart, so there is a heaviness that is labeled ‘sadness’. This heaviness is verifiably happening, in that it is a felt sensation, correct?
But does this heaviness/sadness require an entity ‘I’ or ‘Joyce to be felt, or registered in the body?
When this heaviness is felt, is there also ‘Joyce’ who owns the heaviness? Or does ‘heaviness’ kinda just show up, and then a thought, in an effort to understand and make sense of experience, comes up claiming, “I am sad”?
How about taking a look and tell me what you see?

Now, I would like to invite you to go sit outside somewhere. Take a notebook and pen with you. For the next 5 minutes write down everything that is currently being experienced. Include what is seen, heard, touched/felt, smelled, tasted. Write down thoughts as they come up also, but don’t get involved with the content. Simply notice and write. Send me what you write, please.

Sending a hug,
Linda

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Joyce
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby Joyce » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:39 am

Hi Linda,

Just to let you know have had some kind of sickness over the last couple of days. Am recovering. Will be in touch soon.

Love and thanks

Joyce

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LindaR
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Re: Please nudge me through the gate

Postby LindaR » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:17 pm

Ahh, sending love and healing, Joyce. Talk when you are well.


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