Would love to connect with a guide here

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600orabove
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Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby 600orabove » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:50 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

A strong desire to get help to move from bondage and misery in my love to liberation and non dual God presence

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

Greater self love and trust in self

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

TM , NLP, Hypnosis, Sedona Method, coaching for spiritual growth, studying Dr David Hawkins, Releasing with John Newton Forgiveness Prayer and Howard Wills, Access Consciousness, Brain Integration Therapy (McCrossin )

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

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Lawrence
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby Lawrence » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:43 pm

Hello
Congratulations for entering this process. My name is Lawrence and I hope that I can guide you to the truth to which you seek. Sorry that it has been some time. It may be due to it being busy or it may be due to some apparent dichotomy between your aspiration from this process and where Liberation Unleashed can guide you

Before we start, when you respond, I would find it really helpful if you could give me a name you like to be called. I think you would find it helpful too.
I can see that you have searched in many directions for answers some of these directions I am more familiar with than others. In this process, I would like you firstly to stop reading anything or looking at videos on any of this and concentrate on your own experiences within this process without referring to anything else. The more you stick to the guidance the more natural the process will be.

I would ask you to respond at least once a day and I will endeavour to do the same. As a guide, I can only point you in the right direction. The rest will be up to you.



What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
 strong desire to get help to move from bondage and misery in my love to liberation and non dual God presence
Not quite sure what you are saying here. Can you tell me what is “non dual God presence”or is it just an approximate wording for a concept you have not grasped ?
What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
Greater self love and trust in self
If you look below from Startup section you will see there is an apparent dichotomy between your expectation Greater self-love and trust in self and what liberation means with Liberation Unleashed. At the same time you gave a 10 for the truth whatever it means.

Concerning Liberation

We are fully aware of the fact that the term “Liberation” has different meanings in different traditions. In order to not set up false expectations, we'd like to make it clear that we use the word in a very specific way. In the context of Liberation Unleashed, liberation refers to the clear, unambiguous and direct realisation of the absence of a separate self. Because not everyone, perhaps no one comes to the Gate without at least some degree of latent tendencies, what we refer to as liberation may not be what you expect of it. Seeing self for what it really is - a story, does not mean that your life is suddenly upgraded in every conceivable way. Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place. Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly. The foundation upon which these patterns were based is gone. In this sense, liberation is just the beginning.


So if you wish truth at any price , I am here to help, but all that you can be guided to is this truth.

Think about it carefully in your own time. You can take as long as you need to respond to this

Regards
Lawrence

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600orabove
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby 600orabove » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:31 am

Thank you for stepping forward Lawrence. I would be liked to be called David.
To answer your first question, yes I can see I was not very clear or specific with my words. I would like to move out of my story and see the self for what it really is. All the things I have done have not given me any direct experience of a "clear, unambiguous and direct realization of the absence of a separate self. " I have a strong desire to move out of the misery and bondage, and limitations that my beliefs and story are creating.
The second thing about expectations, I would love to awaken from the story of me and have that help the old patterns to drop away. I will be glad to suspend the study of these other things as you suggested and focus on the guided process and concentrate on my own experiences.I am ready to find the truth, whatever it takes. I am grateful you have stepped forward to help me in this journey. I will endeavor to respond daily as you have requested. Thank you David

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Lawrence
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby Lawrence » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:31 am

Hello again David

You are doing great even before we start. You have many of the tools available from previous research to ease you through this process.
By the way I live on the south coast of England. From the time you write are you writing in the middle of the night or are you in a far off place ?

Let's crack on.
 I would like to move out of my story  ...
I have a strong desire to move out of the misery  ...
I would love to awaken from the story of me...
Lots of “I”s here aren't there ?

Where is this “I”?
What is this “I”?

I said you have useful tools for this. This is because of your knowledge of NLP, releasing etc.
I am going to point you in the direction armed with the tools you have already given yourself.
Just close your eyes whenever you have the time for as long as you can within the next 24 hours and keep asking yourself in your experience in this moment

Where is “I” located ?
What is “I” ?
Who is experiencing these question ?
What is experiencing these question ?


Don't overthink this question. Experience the question in the manner you have learned. Relax into it. As you know the more you relax into this the easier it will become. Use the tools from NLP and releasing. Use them to help you experience and not think. The more you you experience it the easier it will be, because the answers are already there to be experienced...and you can't get them wrong. You can only experience what you experience.
Write down your answers as they flow from you on separate paper and put them here at the end of that time. If you finish earlier, that's fine, but make sure you fully experience what is being asked.

Till the next time David

Regards
Lawrence

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600orabove
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby 600orabove » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:40 pm

Hi Lawrence..my writing late at night is originating from the US in the mountains of North Carolina. Its the same time zone as NYC.
Today was a wonderful experience of relaxing into the 4 questions one at a time that you supplied. 1)Where is "I" located? Resting into the experience of that question, first lead to sensations in my heart region. Resting and going deeper into those sensations caused them to leave and to experience another level that felt like "I" in the solar plexus.. While resting deeper and welcoming that they left also. An expansive feeling followed where the sense of "I" had no location in my body or mind.
What really was interesting was the time spent in the second question...2)What is "I"? The experience was that "I" felt like a voice. A voice that maintains a story of past experiences and a framework of memories.. I noticed how much energy is used to maintain this structure of negative experiences. Sitting in it for a couple of hours , it felt like it was a movie set that I could just walk behind and see it is made up and fake and not what I am at all. It felt like a house of playing cards that could be knocked down and didn't need to be reassembled. The longer I sat in the question the more it felt like this voice and structure loosened up. For questions 3 and 4 there was really a different quality between "who is experiencing" and "what is experiencing". Initially the "who" felt like it was this false structure of me (Body and mind)that was processing the questions. When the question shifted to "what is experiencing" it felt more like an expanded awareness or sense of just being was the experiencer. It felt like for a few brief moments there was no separate "I" and there was no reason to have one.. I will continue to sit in the questions until I receive the next feedback or guidance from you. Thank you David

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Lawrence
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby Lawrence » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:44 am

Hi David

Really nice to have some idea where you are living.

And wow. You are steaming ahead !
I said you had the tools to do the job and you are using them most effectively. Great !
Let's have a look where you are now.
... the sense of "I" had no location in my body or mind. 
It is not just a sense is it ?
Because who or what is sensing this ?
It is an experience of no location isn't it?
If you can't locate something in your experience what does this tell you?

 
The experience was that "I" felt like a voice. A voice that maintains a story of past experiences and a framework of memories..
What would you call someone you cannot locate in your experience but seems to be talking to you ?

 For questions 3 and 4 there was really a different quality between "who is experiencing" and "what is experiencing". Initially the "who" felt like it was this false structure of me (Body and mind)that was processing the questions.
Yes you used the tools you have and question 3 completely narrowed your experience.
If “who is experiencing” felt like a false structure, it was an experience of a false structure, wasn't it ?
What does this tell you ?
When the question shifted to "what is experiencing" it felt more like an expanded awareness or sense of just being was the experiencer. It felt like for a few brief moments there was no separate "I" and there was no reason to have one.
If it felt like there was no separate self, again isn't this the experience of a separate self ?

Let try and confirm this in your experience. Close your eyes once you have read this next paragraph , following these guidelines.
Look through your closed eyes. Notice this “expanded awareness” as you call it. Again relax into it. Notice that is mostly dark, maybe some flashes of light and colour are passing in the experience. Is there any limit at all to what you see in that darkness. Notice sounds. Is there any limit to what you can hear? . Isn't it completely boundless. A boundless awareness. Keep concentrating and don''t think it. Once you have fully appreciated this boundless awareness (assuming you do-it is your experience).Ask yourself. As it is boundless awareness-who is experiencing this boundlessness., because if it is boundless, how can there be anyone to experience this. Then repeat this with your eyes open. Don't think just observe sights as well as sound and their shape and form. Just look don't think. Again notice the boundless awareness and ask yourself logically – if it is boundless who can be looking at it ? Logically can there be two boundless awarenesses-no ! Close you eyes again and repeat this as many times as you like-and it is a very likeable thing to do ( for me anyway)

Again -tell me what you experience.
Regards
Lawrence

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600orabove
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby 600orabove » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:55 pm

Hi Lawrence When doing the exercise with eyes closed, initially sensations and thoughts clouded the awareness. By feeling deeper into them they started to leave and more and more expanded awareness and quietness was there. The focusing on the awareness led to more quietness and a slowing down of the chain of thoughts. Even before asking the question "who is experiencing this boundlessness" , there was an awareness of an energy there that I have been conditioned in the past to associate with 'I" or "me". It felt like that bounded energy of me was fighting to step in front of the awareness and claim it as its own. It also seemed like just walking around it and behind it made it weaker and the boundlessness intensified. There began an awareness that I don't need that "who" anymore, that "who" is actually screwing up the whole show anyway and subtracting from awareness, diminishing it and not adding one iota of value. Doing the exercise later on with eyes open and then eventually staying in the exercise, the quietness expanded and the visual field had a sharer quality, it looked brighter. The auditory impressions were more pronounced and delicate as they were not overridden with a constant barrage of thoughts that previously originated from the field identifying itself as "Me". Right now as I type this there is a feeling of boundlessness that is a background peacefulness and although thoughts are still coming up they aren't agitating or torturous . So it appears that there is really no real "One" that is there experiencing the boundlessness. The boundlessness is there and there is a choice to go into the experience of it or stay in the false conditioned energy that wants to claim the show. Feeling very peaceful and optimistic and energized NOW. Thank You Lawrence.....David

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Lawrence
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby Lawrence » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:35 pm

Pleasure to help you David. Yes you are moving in leaps and bounds, but I need you to respond to the questions. In the first part of the last post.-apart from the last one which is badly written and phrased and will ask it again at the bottom
the sense of "I" had no location in my body or mind. 
It is not just a sense is it ? 
Because who or what is sensing this ?
It is an experience of no location isn't it?
If you can't locate something in your experience what does this tell you?
The experience was that "I" felt like a voice. A voice that maintains a story of past experiences and a framework of memories..

What would you call someone you cannot locate in your experience but seems to be talking to you  ?
 For questions 3 and 4 there was really a different quality between "who is experiencing" and "what is experiencing". Initially the "who" felt like it was this false structure of me (Body and mind)that was processing the questions. 
Yes you used the tools you have and question 3 completely narrowed your experience.
If “who is experiencing” felt like a false structure, it was an experience of a false structure, wasn't it ?
What does this tell you ?
When the question shifted to "what is experiencing" it felt more like an expanded awareness or sense of just being was the experiencer. It felt like for a few brief moments there was no separate "I" and there was no reason to have one.
Error in my orriginal question. Please read as

If it felt like there was no separate self, again and just being , what is this separate self ?

Then I ask you to look at your last response and go again with the experience and see if you want to change any of your comments. You may or may not. It is your experience.

Regards
Lawrence

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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby 600orabove » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:36 pm

So here we go:
"the sense of "I" had no location in my body or mind."
Sense may not be the right word here. The "I"was more like a mind construct... examination found no specific location in the body for this construct or belief.There was no "who" to sense it except possibly the construct itself. The sitting in the "who" felt very limiting and constricting too. The "what"felt like it was awareness itself that could see through the construct as just a made up history held together by some energy.If it is energy and could not be located it isn't structurally real. If it isn't locatable , and not real and it is false.

What would you call someone you cannot locate in your experience but seems to be talking to you ?
I would call it a ghost, or maybe a hallucination, or a mild form of insanity.

Yes you used the tools you have and question 3 completely narrowed your experience.
If “who is experiencing” felt like a false structure, it was an experience of a false structure, wasn't it ?
What does this tell you ?
Yes it was the experience of a false structure. It tells me that the whole concept of an "I" is a false structure and that there is choice here , whether to choose a false structure or just to experience directly to what is there, to awareness.

If it felt like there was no separate self, again and just being , what is this separate self ?
The separate self would be less that being and would be a made up construct . It would be false and not real and a belief that doesn't need to be held onto any longer.

Then I ask you to look at your last response and go again with the experience and see if you want to change any of your comments. You may or may not. It is your experience.
The part about about walking around and behind this construct of "me" was going into thinking and feeling more directly into awareness may have allowed that to just evaporate into the falseness that it is.The rest of the reported experience would remain the same at this point.
Thank you David

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Lawrence
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby Lawrence » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:14 pm

Hello again David

Your direct experience is easing you very speedily through this process.


I am going to push you here without giving you any answers. You are so near and I would like you to open the box with the subtlest pointers I can and we are going to examine everything.

"the sense of "I" had no location in my body or mind." - your original statement
Sense may not be the right word here. The "I"was more like a mind construct- your adjusted statement
The word “mind construct” is conceptual. What do you know this “I” to be in your experience.

.
.. examination found no specific location in the body for this construct or belief. There was no "who" to sense it except possibly the construct itself.
We are at the limits of language if not beyond , so I appreciate that you may use words which do not fully communicate what you mean.
What do you mean by “specific location” ? Do you mean you cannot find it anywhere or that it is everywhere?
The sitting in the "who" felt very limiting and constricting too.
Yes. The “who” is limiting and we are learning about this “who”.
The "what"felt like it was awareness itself that could see through the construct as just a made up history held together by some energy
There is some perfect stuff here because if experience felt like awareness, it is awareness. What else can it be?
Let us look at this awareness. Close your eyes on considering each of the questions below. Sounds are heard . Touch /body sensations felt. Open your eyes and look around. Shape form colour is seen.
1. Can awareness have memory or history ?
2. Can awareness have energy ?
3. Can awareness control anything ?

.If it is energy and could not be located it isn't structurally real .it isn't locatable , and not real and it is false.
Again if it is false and not locatable , not real and false, how can it have energy ?
In the light of your answers above

What would you call someone you cannot locate in your experience but seems to be talking to you ?
I would call it a ghost, or maybe a hallucination, or a mild form of insanity.
What is one word that could be a ghost, a hallucination or a mild form of insanity ? If you have trouble answering -close your eyes.
Yes you used the tools you have and question 3 completely narrowed your experience.-
If “who is experiencing” felt like a false structure, it was an experience of a false structure, wasn't it ?

(Both my quotes)
What does this tell you ? 
Yes it was the experience of a false structure. It tells me that the whole concept of an "I" is a false structure
In the light of the questions above , what is this “false structure”?
and that there is choice here , whether to choose a false structure or just to experience directly to what is there, to awareness.
You have fallen here from everything you have experienced before.

I hope firstly you have other words for false structure when you get here, but that is fine within the questions below. Again close your eyes, if you are having problems and relax into the questions.
1)Who is it that believes it can choose anything.?
2)If it is false it is false. Does a false structure have any reality to choose anything.?

If it felt like there was no separate self, again and just being , what is this separate self ?
( my original quote)
The separate self would be less that being and would be a made up construct . It would be false and not real and a belief that doesn't need to be held onto any longer.
Why “would be” false etc ?
Who what is it that believes there might be a separate self to hold on to ?
What is the separate self ?
Again close your eyes if you need to and relax into the questions.

Now lets have a look together on the closed/open eye experience after your adjustment.
When doing the exercise with eyes closed, initially sensations and thoughts clouded the awareness. By feeling deeper into them they started to leave and more and more expanded awareness and quietness was there. The focusing on the awareness led to more quietness and a slowing down of the chain of thoughts. Even before asking the question "who is experiencing this boundlessness" , there was an awareness of an energy there that I have been conditioned in the past to associate with 'I" or "me .I
Beautiful and insightful.
In the light of your answers above is there “energy” ?
There began an awareness that I don't need that "who" anymore, that "who" is actually screwing up the whole show anyway and subtracting from awareness, diminishing it and not adding one iota of value. 
Again, in the light of your above answers,is there an “I” that can need anything at all. If so how does it work ?
Doing the exercise later on with eyes open and then eventually staying in the exercise, the quietness expanded and the visual field had a sharer quality, it looked brighter. The auditory impressions were more pronounced and delicate as they were not overridden with a constant barrage of thoughts that previously originated from the field identifying itself as "Me". Right now as I type this there is a feeling of boundlessness that is a background peacefulness and although thoughts are still coming up they aren't agitating or torturous

Lovely and beautifully put. Thoughts will always arise and you may now see them for what they are but whatever they are that is all they are !
So it appears that there is really no real "One" that is there experiencing the boundlessness.
Here we have a communication problem again.
You have now used a capitalist “One” that you have not used before. Please be specific in terms of words that I understand your definition. The “One” has many definitions. The use of “appears there is really no real “... is a contradiction.
Is it an apparent reality or a reality?
Also in the light of your previous answers please rephrase this sentence .
The boundlessness is there and there is a choice to go into the experience of it or stay in the false conditioned energy that wants to claim the show. Feeling very peaceful and optimistic and energized NOW.
In the light of previous answers, is there any choice or free-will about any of this ?
If so how does it work ?
Yes something is trying “To claim the show”, it is false and part of conditioning ., but how does it have any energy ? What is it that wants to “claim the show”

There is a lot to consider here and you are close to it. There is no hurry to respond to everything here. Take you time consider-don't overthink. Experience . Look

Regards
Lawrence

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Lawrence
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby Lawrence » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:19 pm

The quotes were not put on this part of the last thread so I restate it here for clarity
What would you call someone you cannot locate in your experience but seems to be talking to you ?
I would call it a ghost, or maybe a hallucination, or a mild form of insanity.
What is one word that could be a ghost, a hallucination or a mild form of insanity ? If you have trouble answering -close your eyes.

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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby 600orabove » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:20 pm

Thank you Lawrence. Much gratitude for this guidance. There is much here to experience and answer. I also committed to posting each day so is it ok to respond to some parts experienced today and continue through the questions in multiple posts?

Siting in the first question...The word “mind construct” is conceptual. What do you know this “I” to be in your experience.

Sitting in 'who is 'I", and what is "I", and what is this "I" that I have chosen, the experience came that the "I" has just been made up. It isn't real or substantive . it's false, a mirage. It could have been made up from totally opposite versions of past experience and the mirage would have been polar opposite. "I" is a made up story, there is a choice whether to experience the story or experience the present ongoing experience.

The second question....What do you mean by “specific location” ? Do you mean you cannot find it anywhere or that it is everywhere?
to be in a specific location something would need to have a form or a substance of density. The "I" had no form in experience and the originally experienced energy had a density that evaporated the longer experience sat in it. Experience could not find it specifically anywhere as it has no substance. Awareness was experienced as everywhere. The "I" was nowhere.

I wil close here to consider and experience the next questions . If having this in parts is not desirable please let me know. Many Thanks
David

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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby 600orabove » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:40 pm

the next questions
3)1. Can awareness have memory or history ?
2. Can awareness have energy ?
3. Can awareness control anything ?
Awareness has no memory or history as it is experience of the present moment
Awareness has no energy
Awareness is acceptance and does not control anything.

4)Again if it is false and not locatable , not real and false, how can it have energy ?
It can't have energy. It is nothing

5)What is one word that could be a ghost, a hallucination or a mild form of insanity ? If you have trouble answering -close your eyes. One word would be "false"

6)Yes you used the tools you have and question 3 completely narrowed your experience.-
If “who is experiencing” felt like a false structure, it was an experience of a false structure, wasn't it ?

(Both my quotes)
What does this tell you ? It tells me there is no "who" that experiences . There is just experience .

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600orabove
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby 600orabove » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:11 pm

continuing:
7)Yes it was the experience of a false structure. It tells me that the whole concept of an "I" is a false structure
In the light of the questions above , what is this “false structure”?
A false structure is no structure , so it is nothing .

8) 1)Who is it that believes it can choose anything.?
2)If it is false it is false. Does a false structure have any reality to choose anything.?
In light of new observation , 'who" that believes it is choosing is false and not real. It has no reality and would not choose anything.

9)If it felt like there was no separate self, again and just being , what is this separate self ?
( my original quote)
The separate self would be less than being and would be a made up construct . It would be false and not real and a belief that doesn't need to be held onto any longer.
Why “would be” false etc ? It is false.

Who what is it that believes there might be a separate self to hold on to ? The separate self believes that. Being false the concept of holding onto to something that is not real is false also. So there would be no separate self to hold onto.

What is the separate self ? A belief which melts under the observation of direct experience. Nothing.

10)there was an awareness of an energy there that I have been conditioned in the past to associate with 'I" or "me .I
Beautiful and insightful.
In the light of your answers above is there “energy” ? In light of my answers there is no energy.

11) There began an awareness that I don't need that "who" anymore, that "who" is actually screwing up the whole show anyway and subtracting from awareness, diminishing it and not adding one iota of value.
Again, in the light of your above answers,is there an “I” that can need anything at all. If so how does it work ?
There is no "I" that can need anything at all. Experience is happening all on it's own.

12) the use of “appears there is really no real “... is a contradiction.
Is it an apparent reality or a reality? It is a reality that there is no one experiencing the boundlessness. There is experience itself.

13) Also in the light of your previous answers please rephrase this sentence .
The boundlessness is there and there is a choice to go into the experience of it or stay in the false conditioned energy that wants to claim the show. Feeling very peaceful and optimistic and energized NOW.
The boundlessness is experienced and the false is to experienced. Feeling into what is there is producing peace ,optimism and energy.

14) In the light of previous answers, is there any choice or free-will about any of this ?
No there would be no choice or free will , there just "IS"

15) Yes something is trying “To claim the show”, it is false and part of conditioning ., but how does it have any energy ? What is it that wants to “claim the show”

It really doesn't have any energy, it is just a looking away from direct experience. The memories of the past that created the false structure wants to claim and run the show. Since it isn't real ,it can't do that.

That gets through the questions in your last post.
Thank you
David

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Lawrence
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Re: Would love to connect with a guide here

Postby Lawrence » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:41 pm

Thank you David
Well Done. Your clarity and past experience has made this guiding such a pleasure.

One final question.
Have you seen/do you see no-self ?


There are now 6 final questions which I ask just to wrap things up
Once you have done this, I will put this thread out to other guides to see if they have any further questions or doubts.
You are welcome to cut and paste if you feel you have answered within the thread and want to put it here.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?


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