the way out

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jerry373
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the way out

Postby jerry373 » Wed May 18, 2016 5:57 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

I'm a bit tired of searching and reading on elightment but your idea sounds interesting and I want to give it a try.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

Looking for is not the right formulation probably but yes, I'm looking for a way out of the suffering. Frankly, no expectations..

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

Some meditation and self inquiry (about 6 months now) and work with a spiritual coach.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

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bth
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Re: the way out

Postby bth » Sat May 21, 2016 9:20 am

HI Jerry,

I can be your guide if you like.

Grtz,

Barry

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jerry373
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Re: the way out

Postby jerry373 » Sat May 21, 2016 2:21 pm

Sure Barry, no problem!

Nice to meet you,
Eugen

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bth
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Re: the way out

Postby bth » Sat May 21, 2016 4:29 pm

Oke great Eugen.

So lets start!

-Read the LU disclaimer on the website
-Post min 1 time a day, and if not plz let me know.
-Ill also reply min 1 time a day, and if not will let you know
-Im not a teacher of any kind, merely here to point. Its your process.
-Preferably leave your "spiritual" coach out of it, and also on the website stay on your own topic. Just work with me for a while
- Oh start using the quote function

To start with if I would say the following.

" There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life - no doer of actions, no thinker of thoughts, no maker of decisions, no "entity" there at all - nothing, nada, zip; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement"

What comes up for you?

Barry

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jerry373
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Re: the way out

Postby jerry373 » Sat May 21, 2016 8:01 pm

Understood Barry, no problems here.
I've red the disclaimer and I'll post as often as needed.

To start with if I would say the following.

" There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life - no doer of actions, no thinker of thoughts, no maker of decisions, no "entity" there at all - nothing, nada, zip; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement"

What comes up for you?

Barry
It doesn't feel that way. The I inside me doesn't agree because it feels in control at least in making choices and dealing with life situations. If I would for a moment accept what you say there is a mild anxiety building up. It was much more before but now it's getting less. I think it's still related to fear of death but also because the idea of no separate self givens me the feeling that life/existence would be pointless.

Eugen

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bth
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Re: the way out

Postby bth » Sun May 22, 2016 9:30 am

Hi Eugen,

Allright.

Clearing some expectations here before we start looking.
It doesn't feel that way.
What needs to change for you in order to "feel" that way? Or do you think you must feel a certain way to have the realization of no self?
The I inside me doesn't agree because it feels in control at least in making choices and dealing with life situations.
Ok. We will cover this later in our conversation.

Now here at LU we focus on looking in the direct experience. When you need a pen, you look for the pen. When a baby wants his doll he/she looks for the doll. When you somehow forgot where you parked your car you look for your car (and hopefully will find it :) ).

So for a start i want you to start looking at what you wrote before.
If I would for a moment accept what you say there is a mild anxiety building up. It was much more before but now it's getting less. I think it's still related to fear of death but also because the idea of no separate self givens me the feeling that life/existence would be pointless.
Lets look at the anxiety, and pointless for a start.

As an exercise for your meditation or just by sitting, I want you to deliberately evoke the sensation what you label as anxiety, and pointless in your answers. One at a time.

This can be quiet demanding so if its gets to much, just take your time.

Just invite the sensation by asking with curiosity. How does the sensation anxiety feels like if there was no self? How does the sensation pointlessness feels like if there was no self? And allowing your self to evoke it fully. You are not going to die ;).

And answer the following?

Can you exactly pinpoint when the sensation start? Or when the sensation ends?
Is it you who does the sensation? Or does the sensation just come and go without you doing it?


And afterwards
What is behind the sensation? Is there anything behind it that needed to be protected when you experienced the sensation?
Take your time for this one. And be as descriptive as possible in your answers.

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bth
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Re: the way out

Postby bth » Sun May 22, 2016 9:31 am

What is behind the sensation? Is there anything behind it that needed to be protected when you experienced the sensation?

This one needed to be in bold.

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jerry373
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Re: the way out

Postby jerry373 » Sun May 22, 2016 5:06 pm

Hi Barry,


What needs to change for you in order to "feel" that way? Or do you think you must feel a certain way to have the realization of no self?
I feel I have boundaries. If everything is one I would expect no boundaries. I understand that I'm not my body but still I feel the physical limits of my body. I guess I'm not my mind but it's the only mind that I'm in direct connection with and it is bounded in relation to the other persons I come in contact.

How does the sensation anxiety feels like if there was no self?

Can you exactly pinpoint when the sensation start? Or when the sensation ends?
Is it you who does the sensation? Or does the sensation just come and go without you doing it?

Anxiety usually builds up in my chest. It's a tension that grabs me and makes it difficult to breath. My heart starts racing a bit as well. At the same time there is suffering/tension on the mental level like a cloud which makes it difficult to have a clear mind. I'm not sure when the sensations start but it has to do with the thought about death and loneliness. I generally cannot say when it will end, I just let it be and it will slowly melt away.

I don't think I'm doing this sensations. I think they just arises in my body.
How does the sensation pointlessness feels like if there was no self? And allowing your self to evoke it fully. You are not going to die ;).
I cannot feel pointlessness anywhere in my body. On one hand this existence seems pointless because all I can achieve (from material to spiritual) will not ensure continuous happiness on the other hand if I doesn't exist will I be even able to feel the pain and limited happiness this existence has to offer?
What is behind the sensation? Is there anything behind it that needed to be protected when you experienced the sensation?
Yes of course. My sense of self. I came to realize it also when I feel emotional pain. I ask myself why do I choose it?The answer that comes up is that this is how my life experiences have shaped me. It's sort of who I am. I can choose to change this, make myself better but I'm don't believe there is an end to this story.

On the other hand it's not always so thick. Sometimes I can see these are just thoughts and it's easy to observe them in a detached manner. Sometimes though it's very difficult, like my mind is clouded. When there is a strong body reaction/sensation and I'm not fully aware of it also gets difficult.


Hope this covers a bit your questions,
Eugen

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bth
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Re: the way out

Postby bth » Sun May 22, 2016 7:25 pm

hi Eugen,

Thanks for you answers!

Just to clarify I'm not here to give you a magic pill for happiness. Merely to show you what is real and what not.
Anxiety usually builds up in my chest
I don't think I'm doing this sensations. I think they just arises in my body.
Did you do the exercise? Of did you just write from your previous experience? By the word usually and I think, I imagine you did not. If I'm wrong please tell.

Its Important that you do the exercise, and look in your direct experience what happens when answering the questions. That will slowly start the process.
I don't think I'm doing this sensations. I think they just arises in my body.
Yes. Although its what you think, its about looking. So again from your direct experience, pick any sensation, preferably pick the "anxiety" again (or if this is to much another sensation) and look again whether this is true for you.

Further, could it be that there is a sensation + the mind labeling anxiety? Can the word anxiety really describe the reality experiencing? Look!

To clarify what we mean with direct experience/ looking a other extra short exercise:

Place a cup in front of you on the table, and remove all other objects.

And with curiosity answer the following:

What do you see in the direct experience?

Barry

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jerry373
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Re: the way out

Postby jerry373 » Sun May 22, 2016 8:35 pm

Hi Barry,

I did do the exercises but most likely my language is confusing. I will be more clear next.


First your short exercise with the cup:
- i see a white object than can hold a liquid
- i see the drawings on the outside of this object
- i see the light shining off the edges of this object
- i see the shadow of the object on the table
...


With regards to anxiety. Yes, anxiety it's just a word/label that I attach to a certain state.

It doesn't describe the reality. There are only clear sensations in the body (tension in my chest, heavy breathing, faster heart rate). The rest are mental stories.

I'm sorry, today I'm a bit overwhelmed by feelings of loneliness. Can't really focus on the no-self feeling.

Eugen

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bth
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Re: the way out

Postby bth » Sun May 22, 2016 10:06 pm

Hi Eugen,

Thanks for your reply. Let me know when you want to continue.

Barry

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jerry373
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Re: the way out

Postby jerry373 » Mon May 23, 2016 9:07 am

Hi Barry,

We can continue.

Eugen

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bth
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Re: the way out

Postby bth » Mon May 23, 2016 10:25 am

Hi Eugen,

Good morning. Its a rainy day here in Amsterdam.
mental story
How does just story, or just thought resonate with you?

Can you really see mental in your direct experience, except as in thought

Please check, and look
I don't think I'm doing this sensations. I think they just arises in my body.
Now look at the labels Anxiety and Loneliness.

So as an exercise. If you want to go hard core evoke the above again. If that's to much pick a sensation you are experiencing now. Up to you.

If you would labels those sensations just experiencing, and not anxiety, loneliness.

Does it feel different to you?
Would there still be anxiety or loneliness if you do not label the sensations as such?


The cup.

Do the exercise again. And look.

How does this resonate with you?

- Color/image + label white object
-etc
-etc
-etc

or the next step

just

Image/Color + thought label

What makes you separate from the cup?
Do you create the image, or is the image just there without you doing it? (verify if this is the same process as with your sensations)

If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Take some time for these ones.

Barry

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jerry373
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Re: the way out

Postby jerry373 » Mon May 23, 2016 2:23 pm

Good morning. Its a rainy day here in Amsterdam.
mental story
How does just story, or just thought resonate with you?

Can you really see mental in your direct experience, except as in thought

Please check, and look
I don't think I'm doing this sensations. I think they just arises in my body.
Hi Barry,

I have a bit of hard time trying to answer your questions. When you say look in your direct experience I understand you mean what I can sense through my body senses be it internally or externally perceived . Additionally there is perception of thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It took me a while to see that "rainy day" is a mental story and it requires some continuous effort to bring forth the arguments because my mind sees it as a fact. Nevertheless, I cannot sense rainy anywhere in/with my body or day for that matter.
I can sense the water on my skin, I can see clouds and I can see the light outside.
Does it make some sense?

I'll get back on the other questions.
Eugen

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jerry373
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Re: the way out

Postby jerry373 » Mon May 23, 2016 3:14 pm


The cup.

Do the exercise again. And look.

How does this resonate with you?

- Color/image + label white object
-etc
-etc
-etc

or the next step

just

Image/Color + thought label

What makes you separate from the cup?
Do you create the image, or is the image just there without you doing it? (verify if this is the same process as with your sensations)

Hi Barry,

Indeed, I'm somewhat more aware of just seeing. If seeing is just the basic sense than indeed my mind labels very fast everything I see with labels of known objects, colors, features, shapes, etc..

In the case of the cup all the attributes I've mentioned like color, shape, shadow are just labels to help my mind differentiate between a cup and something else. In the same way I see the cup, I can also touch the cup to add some more touch experiences (which are also labeled immediately) in order to confirm my mental image of the cup.

The image of the cup is just there. I don't create it.

I can't say for sure what makes me separate from the cup. If I say touch sensations it's not correct because those are just sensations and immediately are labeled as shape, boundary, etc.. If I say seeing then there is the label outside or not in my body. But all of these are thoughts.

Does this make any sense?

Eugen


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