Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Seahawks5862
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:35 am

Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby Seahawks5862 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:36 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I mentally know that there is no I but there is a self talking that seems be real even though I know it can't be me. I also know that there is know me that can be here but it seems to only be true in the head. I thank you for taking the time in advance to guide me...

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I want to know with absolute seeing that the me that "I" keeping referring back to is an illusion.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have read many of the threads on this website. I have practiced staying in the present moment, watched mooji, papaji and many others.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

User avatar
blackh
Site Admin
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:37 am
Location: Manawatu, New Zealand

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby blackh » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:19 am

Hi there,

I'm Steve from New Zealand, and I'd be happy to be your guide. What shall I call you?

It's like we are going for a walk. I'll point and ask questions, and you tell me what you see.

I ask that you look to post daily/regularly and just say if a break is needed. A certain momentum and intensity is useful in this process. Also please set aside your spiritual books, videos, etc and try to resist the temptation to read other threads on this site during this inquiry. This is to help maintain an inward focus. That's where I will keep directing you.

If you're happy with all that and happy for me to be your guide, then we can proceed.

Here's my first question. What emotional reaction do you have to the following statement?

There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life - no doer of actions, no maker of decisions, no "entity" there at all - nothing, nada, zip; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement.

Please tell me everything that comes up for you.


Steve

User avatar
Seahawks5862
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby Seahawks5862 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:22 am

Hi Steve,

You can call me Ty. I'm very happy to have you guide me and I agree to all of the terms that you have set.

Ok...The first thing that comes up is fear. I can see to a certain extent of no watcher or no doer of actions but no maker of decisions and no chooser at all seems not possible. There also is a sence of excitement and relief that there is the possibility of seeing that there is no me pulling the strings.

Thank you,

Ty

User avatar
Seahawks5862
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby Seahawks5862 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:40 am

...there is alot of motivation so if you would like me to post more than one time per day I should be able to do that. Thank you...Ty

User avatar
blackh
Site Admin
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:37 am
Location: Manawatu, New Zealand

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby blackh » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:02 am

Hi Ty,

By all means post many times a day. I will only promise to reply once a day but mostly I should be able to do more than that. My timezone is a bit unfavourable if you happen to be in Europe.
Ok...The first thing that comes up is fear.
Fear is good. :) I have a task for you. If that fear comes up, do this: Fear is a protection mechanism, so welcome it and thank it for protecting you. Don't push it away. Now have a good look at it. Especially look at the body sensations. Can you describe them?

There's more to this, but I'll leave you with that first step. Tell me what you find, then we'll look further.
no maker of decisions and no chooser at all seems not possible.
Well, there are certainly decisions being made. We'll come back to this.
There also is a sence of excitement and relief that there is the possibility of seeing that there is no me pulling the strings.
Great! It's akin to an optical illusion.

OK, I have some more questions:
  • What do you expect that seeing through the illusion of self is going to be like?
  • How do you think your life might change?

Steve

User avatar
Seahawks5862
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby Seahawks5862 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:51 am

Hi Ty,

By all means post many times a day. I will only promise to reply once a day but mostly I should be able to do more than that. My timezone is a bit unfavourable if you happen to be in Europe.
Ok...The first thing that comes up is fear.
Fear is good. :) I have a task for you. If that fear comes up, do this: Fear is a protection mechanism, so welcome it and thank it for protecting you. Don't push it away. Now have a good look at it. Especially look at the body sensations. Can you describe them?

There's more to this, but I'll leave you with that first step. Tell me what you find, then we'll look further.
no maker of decisions and no chooser at all seems not possible.
Well, there are certainly decisions being made. We'll come back to this.
There also is a sence of excitement and relief that there is the possibility of seeing that there is no me pulling the strings.
Great! It's akin to an optical illusion.

OK, I have some more questions:
  • What do you expect that seeing through the illusion of self is going to be like?
  • How do you think your life might change?

Steve

User avatar
Seahawks5862
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby Seahawks5862 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:02 pm

Hi Steve,

When fear comes up it appears as an unsettled feeling in the stomach. As the fear comes up I will definately welcome it. I am actually in California but I work nights so our schedules may work out pretty good.

As of right now in my experience when I focus on just looking or moving the body, I can see that there is no "me". However, when thinking is involved that sense of I comes back in and takes over. I am hoping that I will see completely through this illusion of ME once and for all.

I am hoping that life will be come a little lighter. To think that there is no me will mean that decisions are just being made and that seems pretty cool. I don't imagine that my life will change that much just a knowing that life is flowing and that I'm part of that flow seems very refreshing.

Thanks Ty

User avatar
blackh
Site Admin
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:37 am
Location: Manawatu, New Zealand

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby blackh » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:52 pm

Ty,

There's a huge range of reactions to seeing through the illusion of self. For most people it is quite subtle, but in rare cases the sky falls down. Nobody can predict how it will be for you. The reason for asking about expectations is that if you are expecting a certain thing, it might prevent you noticing something subtle but important. Your expectations seem pretty reasonable so it sounds like you'll have no problem there, but just remember to keep an open mind.

Essentially it's just the dropping of a belief, but this can make the world look and feel different. When you discovered that Santa didn't exist, it probably made the world feel a little less magical.

From what you say, thoughts seem like a good place to start. But let's look a little more at the fear and we can segue into the thoughts.

So, here's an exercise:
  1. Place a cup on the table in front of you and look at it. Now describe what you see. Tell me the direct experience of it with as little reference to thoughts or concepts as you can. Obviously you have to use words to describe it, so some thoughts will be necessary, but try to avoid concepts as much as possible.
  2. Tell me what a cup is.
  3. Now tell me how you know it's a cup.
If the fear comes up again, do the same exercise. Look at the unsettled sensation in the stomach. Try to describe the sensation with a little more detail, with as little reference to thought as you can. Then answer the same questions: What is fear? How do you know that this sensation is fear?

If the fear won't come on command, then the cup part of the exercise will be enough for now. Or you can use another feeling like frustration, sadness, etc. Just work with what you can find.

These answers are for you, but I need to know them so I know what to ask next. Be as honest as you can, and make sure you're always telling me what's really there, not what you think I might want to hear. There's no judgement, and no right or wrong answer.

I've got to go to bed now. See you in eight hours!


Steve

User avatar
Seahawks5862
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby Seahawks5862 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:39 pm

Steve,

I definately don't have any pre-conceived notions how seeing through this illusion will feel. I'm just hoping a little lighter feeling in my daily life.

Ok...when I placed a cup in front of me I see a white object. The top of the cup is round and it gets smaller toward the base. It also looks very thin.

The sensation that I have labled as fear comes up the moment I look intently at the cup and every time I do the excercise the fear comes back right on schedule.

What is fear? It is a feeling that I have placed a lable on. The feeling happens immediately when I focus on the cup. It is now in my chest and the stronger it gets it almost takes my breath away. The sensation feels lite and spacious for some reason. It almost feels like it expands and that what makes me short of breath (if that makes sense).

I really don't know if this is fear, I guess this is just what I have always called this uneasyness.

Ok...Sleep well and thank you

Ty

User avatar
blackh
Site Admin
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:37 am
Location: Manawatu, New Zealand

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby blackh » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:16 pm

Ty,

Thanks for doing the cup exercise. Fear is very common in this process.

How curious that you got fear when looking at the cup. Could it be that there is a fear of finding out you don't exist? This is just a guess - I could be wrong. If it is the case then I have some bad news for you.

That's a nice description of the fear sensation. See if you can look behind the fear for the cause. There should be something there, right? What is being protected, and what is it being protected from?

Aside from the fear, did it feel pleasant to look at the cup?

You said that when thinking is involved a sense of "me" arises. Tell me about this sense. Does it have a physical location or any qualities such as size, shape, colour, or sensation? Does it feel a certain way? What does it do (does it perform some function)?


Steve

User avatar
Seahawks5862
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby Seahawks5862 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:29 am

Steve,

I'm glad to hear that fear is common. It becomes stronger the longer I focus on the cup...weird.

I agree...it seems so odd that fear would come up while looking at the cup. I believe your'e right. The feeling of fear wouldn't be showing up just because I'm looking at a cup. It must be trying to cover up something.

When I look behind the fear there is absolutely nothing behind it. It is a sensation all on it's own. When I look at the cup the feeling is that fear is trying to distract me from seeing something else. Possibly that things are not as they seem. Because when I look at the cup there is no rational reason that fear would come up unless it's trying to cover up something.

Aside from the sensation of fear it feels like a feeling of peace and stillness is happening. It almost feels like the sensations are at odds with each other. Almost like there battling for my attention.

When thinking occurs the sense of a "me" has more to do with "self talking". I can see the thoughts and most of the time I realize there not me, but when there's a confirming of something through self talking then that feels like me. The physical location feels like its in the head. It doesn't feel that it has any particular size, shape or color. It does however feel very personal but as I say that the question comes up "what would a personal feeling feel like?' The self talking doesn't really perform any function it just feels like "I" am the one controling it.

Thanks,

Ty

User avatar
blackh
Site Admin
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:37 am
Location: Manawatu, New Zealand

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby blackh » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:07 am

Ty,

Morning. Fear is far more common than no fear. Those that didn't get fear are rare enough that they get told it must have been repressed or something, and they think there must have been something wrong with them.

Your analysis of the reason for the fear is most likely correct. If the fear is too much, then make sure you take a break, but it doesn't sound like that's happening yet.
When I look behind the fear there is absolutely nothing behind it. It is a sensation all on it's own.
This is an important observation. Which leads me to...
The physical location feels like its in the head. It doesn't feel that it has any particular size, shape or color. It does however feel very personal but as I say that the question comes up "what would a personal feeling feel like?'
Now, this "me" sense or sensation in the head. How do you know it's you?
The self talking doesn't really perform any function it just feels like "I" am the one controling it.
Great description of the sense of "me", by the way.

Self talk consists of thoughts, so let's look at thoughts. Now when I say "thoughts" I am using the term broadly to include all sorts of mental objects: words, images and concepts - that is, knowledge about the properties of a thing. Thoughts range from subtle to obvious.

So here's your first question on thoughts: Where do thoughts come from? That is, take a good look at thoughts as they arise, and see if you can find a "place" in your experience from which they arise. If we're using the metaphor of a stream, then that stream should have a source. What is that source?


Steve

User avatar
Seahawks5862
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby Seahawks5862 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:43 am

Steve,

Good morning. I'm glad to hear that fear is common. It makes me think I'm on the right track.

Interesting question...How do I know that the "me" in the head is really me? I don't really. It has just always been assumed in my experience.

The "obvious" thoughts that appear to come on their own come from nothing. They just seem to appear. The more subtle "self talking" thoughts feel like there is a me initiating them but when I look closer they seem to appear out of nothing also.

Thank you,

Ty

User avatar
blackh
Site Admin
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:37 am
Location: Manawatu, New Zealand

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby blackh » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:08 am

Ty,

What we're trying to do is discern what's real from what's not. We like Philip K. Dick's definition of reality: that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. The reason why we say "look" all the time here is that when you look, you get direct access to reality. When you looked at the cup, you were seeing reality.
Interesting question...How do I know that the "me" in the head is really me? I don't really. It has just always been assumed in my experience.
So keep taking note of what's real. So there is a sensation in the head. So,
  1. Are thoughts real? That is, do they exist?
  2. Is the content of thought real? That is, do the things that thoughts say correspond to reality?

Steve

User avatar
Seahawks5862
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:35 am

Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

Postby Seahawks5862 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:34 am

Steve,

Ok...So am I just noticing what is real by looking? Nothing special like trying to stay in the moment? So the sensations and self talking will always remain but the knowing that it isn't personal won't?

1. Thoughts are real
2. Thats tricky. The content of the thought may or may not be real or true. Thoughts can correspond to reality

Ty


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 49 guests