How can I let myself be finally free?

[PeterMkf]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

My spiritual seeking brings me here. I've been looking in many places, but I find it hard to start looking inside. A lot has been read and watched, but the main problem is, that nothing seems to stay. Everything was an experience, but the truth has never been revealed. Mostly the intellectual understanding was in place and a sort of peace and calm, when reading or watching about this was present. I pick a book, I get great moments and then I forget. Then the cycle repeats itself.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

I am looking for guidance from people, that know what it is. I have been alone on this journey without any external living Guru in my life. It could be time for me to find someone, who might help me and guide me on my journey inside. It would be great to start a conversation with someone, who is willing to listen and talk about all of this.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

It all started with physical self-development about 10 years ago, but I feel like all of the self-development was supposed to lead me to the one thing, that truly matters and the one thing really worth working at. The spiritual journey began from the popular book by Tolle "The Power of Now", but there was a lot of other reading on my way. I am not of any religion or don't consider myself a follower of particularly anyone. Through meditation I was able to make my mind calmer and change many of mind torturing habits. But my mind is still very restless and grabs my attention very strongly right very often right after the practice. Even though I feel a lot happier, kinder and more able to control myself, I still know, that I don't really KNOW the truth. I don't feel that "I am".
My work involves a lot of multi-tasking and it makes my mind restless and hard to ignore. Or may be I should better say, that I am used to this kind of way of working at still find it hard to implement changes in this.
I tried many times to take my attention off spirituality and get back to my work and entrepreneurship, but I always come back as it all seems not that important. I still run around with my restless mind getting involved in many different things until I start to see no point in all of that.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 8

[forgetmenot]

Hi Peter,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the separate self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers.

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info found in the following link, as well as a short picture slide which is recommended viewing. Please make sure you have read the disclaimer as well.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Just let me know if you are okay with me being your guide and that you have read the disclaimer and so on, and we can then start the exploration.

Cheers, Kay

[PeterMkf]

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the separate self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers.

Hi, Kay. Nice to meet you. Thanks for being my guide :)

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info found in the following link, as well as a short picture slide which is recommended viewing. Please make sure you have read the disclaimer as well.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

I've already explored those as well as started reading the book Gateless Gatecrashers.

Just let me know if you are okay with me being your guide and that you have read the disclaimer and so on, and we can then start the exploration.

Well, I think I am ready to be guided. I am totally OK with you being my guide :) Let's start!

[forgetmenot]

Hi Peter,

Wonderful to hear that you are ready to go! Thank you for learning how to use the quote function, it helps in keeping the thread legible.

Just some further housekeeping.

Please read the following carefully and be aware that the ground rules are not a suggestion; they do serve a purpose in the exploration of seeing through the illusory ‘self’.

SOME GROUND RULES:-
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is actual/direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

Sometimes the site may log you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere (word document), then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Throughout this exploration I will ask questions and set you some exercises for you to help you make the realisation that there is no separate self. This will be the focus. There are no right or wrong answers and there is nobody judging you. You can't get this wrong.

Could you answer the following questions to what your expectations are once seeing through the illusory separate self has taken place.
1. How will Life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?
5. What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Please answer each question individually, and use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Cheers, Kay

[PeterMkf]

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.

Don't think there is going to be problem with that.

2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

I will do my best. I hope I can be honest with myself.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is actual/direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

Read the article. I hope you will guide me here, because I do like to run philosophy in my head very often and I understand this can be an issue fo r our process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

Could you please be more specific as per "Other teaching"? Is it ok if I read Gateless Gatecatchers meanwhie and ignore everything else for now? What would you recommend as the best practice to see the reality as it is for our process, besides our guide? For example, what would I do instead of that time I was spending reading other teachings?

5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

I pretty much understand how this is supposed to work. I realize, that the amount of effort I put into this process will be the way to get the result :)

1. How will Life change?

As I feel it, the constant seeking for Truth or Myself should dissapear and with this a feeling of peace comes to life. In a way it will change the way I live in the moment, with no need to escape it and look for something else. Otherwise I don't expect much to change. I work, I play, I live. I have a great life and don't need anything to be changed, except for constant "seeking" of something else. Especially the feeling that I have to do it, that makes me want to escape the present very often.

2. How will you change?

I feel like with the realization I will become in peace with the present moment. The illusion, that there is always a need to go somewhere else, to look somewhere else, to do something else will dissolve. The seeking for a better experience might become not so necessary anymore. As an identity of myself as self-developer wil fade away as well (which is already happening), as I already feel like there is no one really to develop and nothing to make better. I've been "developing" myself for quite a while now and it only triggers new desires to become better somewhere in the future. I see no end to this and no peace in it.

3. What will be different?

Present will be different. The here and now will become more real. The need for the future will become more distant.

4. What is missing?

What is missing as what will be missing, when realization comes? The one thing I can think of is, that since the future is not that important anymore, then what is there to live for? A thought of a person, who expect the future to become better and myself to become a better person. But the more I walk this path the more I see the illusion of this thinking. Anyhow, my conditioning will bring something to miss for.

5. What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

I feel like your guidance might point out how close I am to the gate and realization of what I am not. All my path was done alone by myself and books + internet. I think having conversation with someone, who has already seen, is the next step for me or just a way to confirm something, or deny :)

Peter

[forgetmenot]

Hi Peter,

When you read my responses, just become aware of what comes up for you. What I mean by that have a look to see if resistance, anger, disappointment, joy (or whatever) and just let me know.

Could you please be more specific as per "Other teaching"? Is it ok if I read Gateless Gatecatchers meanwhie and ignore everything else for now? What would you recommend as the best practice to see the reality as it is for our process, besides our guide? For example, what would I do instead of that time I was spending reading other teachings?

Reading Gateless Gatecrashers is fine. If you have a meditation practice, continue to meditate. I will be setting exercises and that is what I suggest you do.

How will Life change?

As I feel it, the constant seeking for Truth or Myself should dissapear and with this a feeling of peace comes to life. In a way it will change the way I live in the moment, with no need to escape it and look for something else. Otherwise I don't expect much to change. I work, I play, I live. I have a great life and don't need anything to be changed, except for constant "seeking" of something else. Especially the feeling that I have to do it, that makes me want to escape the present very often.

Yes, the constant seeking does dissipate, however, there never has been a separate individual who is constantly seeking or who is living a life. That is a story ABOUT a “me” and has no reality.

How will you change?

I feel like with the realization I will become in peace with the present moment.

The idea of peace is a concept as is the idea of the “present moment”. There is no one/nothing that is either peaceful or not peaceful or who is trying to escape the “present moment”. All there ever is, is ‘now’.

What will be different?

Present will be different. The here and now will become more real. The need for the future will become more distant.

Since there has never been a separate individual before this exploration started, there is no separate individual now who is wanting the “present” to be different. There has only ever been the “here and now” which is ‘made up’ of sound, sensation, smell, taste, thought and colour. Anything else is just a story and is fiction.

What is missing?

What is missing as what will be missing, when realization comes? The one thing I can think of is, that since the future is not that important anymore, then what is there to live for? A thought of a person, who expect the future to become better and myself to become a better person. But the more I walk this path the more I see the illusion of this thinking. Anyhow, my conditioning will bring something to miss for.

There is no ‘person’ and never has been who can become a better ‘person’ or who has been conditioned or who is walking a path. This is just a thought story. There is no such thing as time so there is no past, present or future.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

I feel like your guidance might point out how close I am to the gate and realization of what I am not. All my path was done alone by myself and books + internet. I think having conversation with someone, who has already seen, is the next step for me or just a way to confirm something, or deny :)

There is no “I” that can “feel/sense” anything, and there is nobody/nothing who can obtain or achieve anything.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour (image), sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought.

So as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree, simply= image/colour
Smelling the coffee, simply = smell,
Feel the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste
Hearing a car drive by = sound
Thought about work = thought. (Thoughts can be words and mental images)

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience {AE}) and report back how you go.

Kay

[PeterMkf]

Hey Kay

How are you doing today? :)

Yes, the constant seeking does dissipate, however, there never has been a separate individual who is constantly seeking or who is living a life. That is a story ABOUT a “me” and has no reality.

Sometimes the touch of this reality is there, but not real enough. The understanding, that there is just a story is there as well. But there is a feeling of resistance to it.

The idea of peace is a concept as is the idea of the “present moment”. There is no one/nothing that is either peaceful or not peaceful or who is trying to escape the “present moment”. All there ever is, is ‘now’.

The present moment, the Now, The Eternal now. Seems like all the same to me. The peaceful moment? There is a feeling of peace. Like an experience. It comes and goes like any other experience.

Since there has never been a separate individual before this exploration started, there is no separate individual now who is wanting the “present” to be different. There has only ever been the “here and now” which is ‘made up’ of sound, sensation, smell, taste, thought and colour. Anything else is just a story and is fiction.

There is no ‘person’ and never has been who can become a better ‘person’ or who has been conditioned or who is walking a path. This is just a thought story. There is no such thing as time so there is no past, present or future.

There is no “I” that can “feel/sense” anything, and there is nobody/nothing who can obtain or achieve anything.

There is definitely an understanding of everything your say, but I am like a child, that still wants to believe his fairy tale.

It’s like you say:
-Listen, boy. There is no Santa. It’s just not real.
-How so?
-Well, can you believe that fat man can squeeze through this thing here?
-Erm, I guess not, he is kind of big for this hole…
-Do you really believe that old guy can make it to everyone around in one night?
-Hmm...yeah, it feels kind of strange. It’s hardly possible.
-You know, just ask yourself. Explore and try to find the truth within if he exists or not. How do you feel? Don’t trust me here, trust yourself.

And then I am in shock going to my room, close the door and start thinking. The belief starts to fall apart, but it surely won’t dissolve in a moment, since the belief was pretty strong and associated with lots of strong emotions. I still want my Santa even if he is not real!
Well, in this case I don’t want my Self to be real anymore, but subconsciously there is a lot of attachment to it :)

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour (image), sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought.

So as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree, simply= image/colour
Smelling the coffee, simply = smell,
Feel the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste
Hearing a car drive by = sound
Thought about work = thought. (Thoughts can be words and mental images)

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience {AE}) and report back how you go.

Ok. The assignement.

Smelling the coffee, simply = smell

The smell of the Coffee is one of the most pleasurable ones there is for my liking (even though I don’t drink it anymore :), but when I do smell it there is just smelling. The thought might arise, that labels this smell as something like “I love it”, but it appears as the smell itself. Just something in the field of consciousness.

The feeling of something against the skin like a wind is again something, that just happens. It’s not like I feel it. The feeling just happens. There is a feeling of the wind.

The same goes with the taste. There is just sensation of the taste of ginger tea in my mouth right now.

The hearing is an awesome example for me of something, that just happens. That there is nothing being heard and no one hearing. There is just hearing. The music makes it very clear.
There is a humming sound of computer server working in the room behind the door. When there is attention to it the sound appears, when there is no attention to it the sound is non existent at all.

With seeing it is a little bit different. Most of the time it feels like the seeing is happening from behind the eyes and it gives the identity like “I am seeing” a lot more, than any other sense. But when there is no tension and resistance, like in a more meditative state, relaxed, then there is seeing only.

It’s the same with thoughts. They have identification only, when they are connected with stronger negative emotions. The tension creates resistance, this resistance is a feeling, that this unpleasantness can go away, if only I could do something about it. I have control over escaping from this moment and fix it. So the feeling of Self appears in those unpleasant moments, when this Self is supposed to fix it. I can help, I can fix it, I can make it better...seems like the biggest block there is…

The thoughts appear by themselves, they don’t come from “me” or it’s not “me” who is making them. It is very clear to me. There is a feeling of it every time meditation is happening. It means emotions, that arise with thinking are not created by “me” as well. But the stronger the emotion the stronger the feeling of “I am supposed to do something about it”.

I was having conversation at work and noticed, that there was not “me” present in it. Conversation was just happening...There are times the light is seen, until “the me” is identified with something not so pleasant :)

This might clear some of the ways some stuff occurs...

[forgetmenot]

Hi Peter!

This exploration is based on LOOKING and finding to what is being pointed at through LOOKING. So…what is LOOKING?

‘Looking’ is just plain looking to what is here right now. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. It’s noticing sound, taste, smell, sensation and colours (images) to see what is really present (actual experience) and always has been; as well as noticing thought/s - not thinking, but noticing or being ‘aware’ of thought/s. Thoughts tend to pull you away from looking directly, as by directly looking into actual experience, you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".

How are you doing today? :)

It’s a lovely and rather crisp Saturday morning, and all is well! :)

Yes, the constant seeking does dissipate, however, there never has been a separate individual who is constantly seeking or who is living a life. That is a story ABOUT a “me” and has no reality.

Sometimes the touch of this reality is there, but not real enough. The understanding, that there is just a story is there as well. But there is a feeling of resistance to it.

There is no one/nobody that is “feeling resistance”.

The label “resistance” is the actual experience (AE) of thought and NOT the AE of a ‘person who is feeling resistance’.
The sensation labelled “resistance” is the AE of sensation and NOT the AE of a ‘person who is feeling resistance’.
The colours labelled ‘Peter/body’ is the AE of colours (image) and NOT the AE of a ‘person called Peter who is feeling resistance’.

So “resistance” does not exist. What is actually present is the face value of a label (thought) + sensation + colour, which then thought glues together and says there is a “person who is feeling resistance”.

Really have a look at this and let me know if you can you see this?

The idea of peace is a concept as is the idea of the “present moment”. There is no one/nothing that is either peaceful or not peaceful or who is trying to escape the “present moment”. All there ever is, is ‘now’.

The present moment, the Now, The Eternal now. Seems like all the same to me. The peaceful moment? There is a feeling of peace. Like an experience. It comes and goes like any other experience.

There is no other ‘now’ except the “eternal now”. The idea of time is just that…an idea and does not exist.

There is no body/nothing that can or is/isn’t “feeling peaceful” or who is experiencing “life”. Actual experience consists of smell, taste, colour, sensation, thought + sound anything else is just a story.

The label “peaceful” is the AE of thought and not the AE of “feeling peaceful”.
The sensation labelled “peaceful” is the AE of sensation and not the AE of ‘someone “feeling peaceful”.
The colour labelled as “Peter/body” is the AE of colour ant not the AE of a “person feeling peaceful”.

So the AE of peaceful = label + sensation + colour. There is no separate individual who can experience “feeling peaceful”.

There is definitely an understanding of everything your say, but I am like a child, that still wants to believe his fairy tale.
And then I am in shock going to my room, close the door and start thinking. The belief starts to fall apart, but it surely won’t dissolve in a moment, since the belief was pretty strong and associated with lots of strong emotions. I still want my Santa even if he is not real!

So when seeing through the idea of there being no Santa Claus, did anything change, or did only the perception about Santa change? Santa didn’t disappear, he could still be seen on every street corner at Christmas time but there was no longer the belief that Santa was real.

Well, in this case I don’t want my Self to be real anymore, but subconsciously there is a lot of attachment to it :)

This is just a story…there is no one/nothing that is attached to anything!

There is no attachment to your stories.
Your = thought story
Attachment = thought story, riding piggyback on the 'your' thought story.
Thought referring to thought.
Simply notice the story about the story.
See if you're actually in it.
And see if it's actually yours.

The smell of the Coffee is one of the most pleasurable ones there is for my liking (even though I don’t drink it anymore :), but when I do smell it there is just smelling. The thought might arise, that labels this smell as something like “I love it”, but it appears as the smell itself. Just something in the field of consciousness.

Yes! Smelling is happening but can you find anyone/anything that is smelling?
(I am enjoying the smell and taste as I sip on my morning hot cup of coffee!)

The feeling of something against the skin like a wind is again something, that just happens. It’s not like I feel it. The feeling just happens. There is a feeling of the wind.

Is there "feeling of wind" or is there just sensation which thought says is the "feeling of wind against the skin"?

The same goes with the taste. There is just sensation of the taste of ginger tea in my mouth right now.

How is it known that there is a mouth and that it is the mouth that is tasting the ginger?

The hearing is an awesome example for me of something, that just happens. That there is nothing being heard and no one hearing. There is just hearing.

Wonderful! There is no dividing line between ‘hear-er’ and ‘hearing/heard’ – there is only sound.

With seeing it is a little bit different. Most of the time it feels like the seeing is happening from behind the eyes and it gives the identity like “I am seeing” a lot more, than any other sense. But when there is no tension and resistance, like in a more meditative state, relaxed, then there is seeing only.

How is it known that there are ‘eyes’ and that ‘eyes see’?
Can you see ‘your eyes’?

It’s the same with thoughts. They have identification only, when they are connected with stronger negative emotions. The tension creates resistance, this resistance is a feeling, that this unpleasantness can go away, if only I could do something about it.

How is it known that thought creates sensation or vice versa?
The face value of thought is actual experience (AE), but what thoughts are ABOUT are story.

Kay xxoo

[PeterMkf]

Hey Kay

I am going to post my answer tomorrow as there is no clear thinking now. Need some rest :)

What is our time difference with you? What time zone are you in?

[forgetmenot]

Hi Peter,

That's okay. Time differences do happen most of the time! I live in Australia. UTC+10:00

Kay xxoo

[PeterMkf]

Hey Kay!

Another great day here :) What's up in Australia? :)

There is no one/nobody that is “feeling resistance”.

The label “resistance” is the actual experience (AE) of thought and NOT the AE of a ‘person who is feeling resistance’.
The sensation labelled “resistance” is the AE of sensation and NOT the AE of a ‘person who is feeling resistance’.
The colours labelled ‘Peter/body’ is the AE of colours (image) and NOT the AE of a ‘person called Peter who is feeling resistance’.

So “resistance” does not exist. What is actually present is the face value of a label (thought) + sensation + colour, which then thought glues together and says there is a “person who is feeling resistance”.
Really have a look at this and let me know if you can you see this?

There is no other ‘now’ except the “eternal now”. The idea of time is just that…an idea and does not exist.

There is no body/nothing that can or is/isn’t “feeling peaceful” or who is experiencing “life”. Actual experience consists of smell, taste, colour, sensation, thought + sound anything else is just a story.

The label “peaceful” is the AE of thought and not the AE of “feeling peaceful”.
The sensation labelled “peaceful” is the AE of sensation and not the AE of ‘someone “feeling peaceful”.
The colour labelled as “Peter/body” is the AE of colour ant not the AE of a “person feeling peaceful”.

So the AE of peaceful = label + sensation + colour. There is no separate individual who can experience “feeling peaceful”.

I see, that there are just labels for every experience. It’s the way for the mind to navigate in this world. It’s the way for “me” to “understand” the experience, but when the looking behind those labels happens, there is nothing behind them. There is no “me”. They just happen. There is Direct Experience and it is made of our senses and thoughts, there is nothing behind it, who creates it. Thoughts create illusions and the biggest of them all is, that I exist.

So when seeing through the idea of there being no Santa Claus, did anything change, or did only the perception about Santa change? Santa didn’t disappear, he could still be seen on every street corner at Christmas time but there was no longer the belief that Santa was real.

Nothing changes in reality, except the perception about Santa. The sensations and colours(images) are changed, or it is better to use “start to change” here as the process is not instant...more of a gradual

This is just a story…there is no one/nothing that is attached to anything!

There is no attachment to your stories.
Your = thought story
Attachment = thought story, riding piggyback on the 'your' thought story.
Thought referring to thought.
Simply notice the story about the story.
See if you're actually in it.
And see if it's actually yours.

These are just stories. Chain reaction of stories about “me”, that have nothing to do with reality. If looking behind those stories, it is impossible to find Peter there.

Is there "feeling of wind" or is there just sensation which thought says is the "feeling of wind against the skin"?

In reality there is just the “feeling of the wind” and “feeling of the wind against the skin” is just another label. Well, there is just sensation. The wind is another label anyway.

How is it known that there is a mouth and that it is the mouth that is tasting the ginger?

There is just the taste of ginger. Mouth is just another label. I know my mouth, because it is another thought programmed. Another label in my head created by the mind.

How is it known that there are ‘eyes’ and that ‘eyes see’?
Can you see ‘your eyes’?

There are eyes and, that they see is what we’ve been told, so this is another creation of the mind. In reality there is only seeing.

How is it known that thought creates sensation or vice versa?
The face value of thought is actual experience (AE), but what thoughts are ABOUT are story.

It is known, because it was programmed through life interactions. If I was to forget everything I learned now, then there wouldn’t be any idea of thought creating sensation or vise versa. There would be more of feeling of Direct Experience instead of thinking about thinking.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Peter,

There is no one/nobody that is “feeling resistance”.

I see, that there are just labels for every experience. It’s the way for the mind to navigate in this world. It’s the way for “me” to “understand” the experience, but when the looking behind those labels happens, there is nothing behind them. There is no “me”. They just happen. There is Direct Experience and it is made of our senses and thoughts, there is nothing behind it, who creates it. Thoughts create illusions and the biggest of them all is, that I exist.

Describe to me in exact detail what a “mind” looks like and where it is located.

Thoughts are actual experience, but in and of themselves cannot create anything. We will be looking at thoughts next.

Is there "feeling of wind" or is there just sensation which thought says is the "feeling of wind against the skin"?

In reality there is just the “feeling of the wind” and “feeling of the wind against the skin” is just another label. Well, there is just sensation. The wind is another label anyway.

Yes. “Wind” and “skin” are AE of labels/thought but as and of themselves, neither exist in reality.

How is it known that there is a mouth and that it is the mouth that is tasting the ginger?

There is just the taste of ginger. Mouth is just another label. I know my mouth, because it is another thought programmed. Another label in my head created by the mind.

There is no one/nobody who knows or has a mouth or a head! (We will be looking at the body later on).

Close your eyes and place the tip of a finger to the top of the head. Now drop all thoughts and images…and what is really there? Can a head or a finger be found, or is there just sensation?

How is it known that thought creates sensation or vice versa?
The face value of thought is actual experience (AE), but what thoughts are ABOUT are story.

It is known, because it was programmed through life interactions. If I was to forget everything I learned now, then there wouldn’t be any idea of thought creating sensation or vise versa. There would be more of feeling of Direct Experience instead of thinking about thinking.

What is it exactly (thing/entity) that has been “programmed through life interactions”?
What is it exactly that is “thinking”?

It is only a thought that says “thoughts creates sensation or vice versa”. There is no one thinking, believing or being determined by thought and thought cannot create anything or do anything.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying, and rather just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

- Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
- Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
- Where are they coming from?
- Where are they going?
- Can you predict your next thought?
- Can you push away any thought?
- Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
- Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
- Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
- Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?
- Is it possible to control any thoughts?
- Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
- It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Please look carefully when doing this exercise and answer all questions individually using the quote function. Do the exercise a couple of times if necessary.

Cheers from the Land Downunder! :)

[PeterMkf]

Hey Kay

Thanks for the guidance and exercise. They will be done sometime tomorrow and there will be an answer by the time you meet a new day in Australia! :)

[PeterMkf]

Describe to me in exact detail what a “mind” looks like and where it is located.

Thoughts are actual experience, but in and of themselves cannot create anything. We will be looking at thoughts next.

The explanation will be all intellectual, but when I go and try looking for it, there is no mind. It’s just another label created of thoughts, sensations and images. Since we are looking for direct experience I am not going to elaborate.

There is no one/nobody who knows or has a mouth or a head! (We will be looking at the body later on).

Close your eyes and place the tip of a finger to the top of the head. Now drop all thoughts and images…and what is really there? Can a head or a finger be found, or is there just sensation?

Without any images, there is no head and no finger. They appear only, when there is thinking. Without feeling there is only sensation...there is only feeling

What is it exactly (thing/entity) that has been “programmed through life interactions”?
What is it exactly that is “thinking”?

It is only a thought that says “thoughts creates sensation or vice versa”. There is no one thinking, believing or being determined by thought and thought cannot create anything or do anything.

I understand this and what strikes me most today, when I look I feel exactly what you are saying...there are only thoughts, then thoughts on top of them..stream of thinking is happening. I will say more later with the exercise.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying, and rather just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Nope. They just appear from nowhere. It feels like nothing is involved in creating any of them.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, there is nothing can be done about it.

Where are they coming from?
Where are they going?

No idea. They appear from nowhere and they disappear into nowhere.

Can you predict your next thought?

Nope, there is no way to predict the next thought. They just come and go, one thought can be followed by another one and then another one, which are accompanied by other experiences.

Can you push away any thought?

There is no way I can push away a thought. The more trying of pushing away happens, the more feeling of thought happens and other thoughts are streaming with more intensity.

There is a feeling of emptiness, that is trying to push away something, that exist. It’s like nothing, that is trying to push something material. Sorry, getting into intellectualizing again :)

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

There is no selection and there is no stopping. There are only thoughts about stopping, that lead to another thoughts. The thinking just happens.

- Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

There are thoughts...they just come and go, no idea where they come from and where they go. “Painful” and “Negative” are just labels. There is no chooser. Maybe something can choose them, I don’t know. The “me” is not involved there.

- Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?

There is nothing, that chooses thought, they just appear. There is only thinking. Other explanation will involve just more thinking and speculation.

- Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Just yesterday, I would feel that, when there is awareness of thoughts, then there is an option to control them in some way by directing attention. There is unaware thinking, when it just flows and you are lost in it and then there is awareness of thinking and you can direct your thinking somewhere else, like the breath or something else. The whole idea was, that when you are aware - you are in control, but when you are unaware, then you are not. Like sleeping when awake…

Today doing the exercise it felt like just thinking. There is a thought, then there is another thought of awareness of the thought, then there is a thought to let the thought pass and so on. There is no control...

- Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

It’s not possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, they just do come. You wrote “including the thought I”, the thought appeared about this writing along with sensation in the body, then another one.

- It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There is definitely an illusion of order, that thoughts flow in, but it is another thought. Like one thought appearing, then another one, then another one, then….ha!...it makes sense, logical thinking. But in reality it is just another thought appearing.

Just the flow of experience, like the flow of life.

I still need to explore this more.

Will be waiting for your guidance here.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Peter,

You did some great LOOKING! :)

Describe to me in exact detail what a “mind” looks like and where it is located.

The explanation will be all intellectual, but when I go and try looking for it, there is no mind. It’s just another label created of thoughts, sensations and images. Since we are looking for direct experience I am not going to elaborate.

Great! Yes, there is no such thing as a “mind” in AE. Thank you for not going to thought for an answer! :)

There is no one/nobody who knows or has a mouth or a head!
Close your eyes and place the tip of a finger to the top of the head. Now drop all thoughts and images…and what is really there? Can a head or a finger be found, or is there just sensation?

Without any images, there is no head and no finger. They appear only, when there is thinking. Without feeling there is only sensation...there is only feeling

What exactly is it that is “feeling” sensation?
Have a look…is there a dividing line (a gap) between the “feeler” and what is “felt”? Or is “feeler/felt” one and the same?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Nope. They just appear from nowhere. It feels like nothing is involved in creating any of them.

Yes.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, there is nothing can be done about it.

Nice

Where are they coming from?
Where are they going?

No idea. They appear from nowhere and they disappear into nowhere.

Yes, so there is no storage unit anywhere, where thoughts/memories etc are contained! :)

Can you predict your next thought?

Nope, there is no way to predict the next thought. They just come and go, one thought can be followed by another one and then another one, which are accompanied by other experiences.

Close the eyes for 10 or so minutes and just notice thoughts and see if you can find a gap between thoughts.
Can you find where one thought ends and another begins?
Let me know how you go.

Can you push away any thought?

There is no way I can push away a thought. The more trying of pushing away happens, the more feeling of thought happens and other thoughts are streaming with more intensity.
There is a feeling of emptiness, that is trying to push away something, that exist. It’s like nothing, that is trying to push something material. Sorry, getting into intellectualizing again :)

What exactly is it that is seeing a “feeling of emptiness”?
Can you find anyone/anything that is “trying to push away thoughts”?
How is it known that thoughts become “more intense”?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

There is no selection and there is no stopping. There are only thoughts about stopping, that lead to another thoughts. The thinking just happens.

Yes, however, what is this “thinking” happening to? What exactly is it that is “thinking”? Is there someone/something “thinking” or are there thoughts appearing which are then labelled as “someone thinking”?

- Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

There are thoughts...they just come and go, no idea where they come from and where they go. “Painful” and “Negative” are just labels. There is no chooser. Maybe something can choose them, I don’t know. The “me” is not involved there.

So, have a LOOK. If there is no “me” choosing thoughts, then please locate the “something” else that maybe “choosing them” and describe where this “something” is located in precise detail.

- Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?

There is nothing, that chooses thought, they just appear. There is only thinking. Other explanation will involve just more thinking and speculation.

What exactly is it that is “thinking”?
Is there a “thinker” or are thoughts just appearing and appearing to no one/nothing?
So it is seen that there is no one/nothing ‘choosing’ what thoughts appear, is there anyone/anything that is choosing between thoughts to make decisions?

- Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Today doing the exercise it felt like just thinking. There is a thought, then there is another thought of awareness of the thought, then there is a thought to let the thought pass and so on. There is no control...

Wonderful looking! :)
So it is seen there is no “controller” of thoughts, that thoughts appear and disappear - can there be anyone/anything that is ‘controlling’ anything…including ‘life’?

- Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

It’s not possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, they just do come. You wrote “including the thought I”, the thought appeared about this writing along with sensation in the body, then another one.

Great

- It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There is definitely an illusion of order, that thoughts flow in, but it is another thought. Like one thought appearing, then another one, then another one, then….ha!...it makes sense, logical thinking. But in reality it is just another thought appearing.

Nice

Please answer the questions highlighted in blue.

Love, Kay