Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

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indianseeker
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Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby indianseeker » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:52 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
The quest for liberation of course. The forum has been recommended to me by a Facebook friend to my query and need for a Guru for the final crossover. I have been seeking the self for 40 plus years now. Have made considerable progress in taming the mind. The final frontier still alludes me. I have experienced absolute nothingness or absoluteness of that which is prior to I Am. However, it comes and goes. Need a guru/guide to hold my finger and take me to the edge and simply push me over. I am ready to jump over. I wish to remain in the Now for ever. In permanent state of awareness without any attachments to the past and future.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I seek a guide who will take me to the edge or the gate less gate and push me onto it. I am ready to take the leap and jump.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
As Hindu Brahmin, I have had the fortune to have been exposed to all the Vedic/Uppanishad/Puran/Vedanta/Advaitya knowledge since early age. I have passed to major milestones of knowledge through text and its distilled understanding. By going through Bhagwat Gita, Vivekanand, Rama Krishna Paramhansa, Yogananda, Eckhart Tolle, OSHO, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Nasigardatta, Ashtavakra Gita, Kybalion etc the intellectual distillation has taken place followed by a profound understanding of time, space, mind, spirit-body-mind construct.By meditation and yoga have been able to activate the third eye center of intuitiveness. Since, then by combating and befriending the thoughtrons have been able to live in relative silence and surrender. By being a soldier by profession I have great resilience and discipline to follow instructions.Hence, by a combination of intellectual-physical and spiritual gyming I have to a fair degree distilled the muck inside. But it keeps getting disturbed occasionally. However, the entire journey has been alone by my self. No guide /guru ever crossed my journey/path.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11
Life is a celebration, Enjoy it
Ashutosh

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yuvi
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby yuvi » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:33 pm

Hi IndianSeeker, I can be your guide. I am yuvaraj from India. Let me know if we can start our discussion:)
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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indianseeker
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby indianseeker » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:39 am

Sure, I am driving. I'll get back soon. What's the best time for you. Are you based in India. Sincere regards.
Life is a celebration, Enjoy it
Ashutosh

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yuvi
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby yuvi » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:44 pm

Yes sir, I am from Bangalore but originally from Chennai. We may not be discussing real time but certainly communicate frequently..

Before we start, i'd like you to go through the below requirements of LU process:

1. You agree to post at least once a day. If you are busy, please inform me that you are busy so I know that you are working with me.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

Please let me know if you agree to all of them. We can then begin our discussion
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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indianseeker
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby indianseeker » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:06 am

I agree. We can begin from tomorrow. Best.
Life is a celebration, Enjoy it
Ashutosh

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yuvi
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby yuvi » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:42 pm

great then!

In this process, I will give you questions or pointers for you to “LOOK” and reply to me. “Looking” is not same as “thinking”. “Looking” means observing, with concentration, the experience right here and now. This is the Direct Experience (DE).

When looking, be sure to look at ‘thoughts’ as ‘thoughts’ (regardless of what thoughts says or images that appears mentally), and ‘sensations’ as ‘sensations’ (regardless of what thoughts labels these sensations). It is crucial that you are sincere in this process to notice how your imagined self comes into being.

For e.g. I may ask, what is the DE of writing an email to your friend. You may reply, “there is a sight of laptop in front of me and my hands typing letters. There is sensation in my fingers as I type.” I will now explain the difference between "Direct Experience" and "Words that comes out of thinking -or- thoughts" in the above statement using these abbreviations: T- Thought, DE-Direct Experience.

“there is a sight (DE) of laptop (T) in front of (T) me (T) and my (T) hands (T) typing (T) letters(T) . There is sensation (DE) in my (T) fingers (T) as I (T) type (T).”

Shall we begin?

What is the direct experience of “I” now?
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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indianseeker
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby indianseeker » Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:18 pm

Thank you.
Well the first thoughts that came are that the I or Ashu is a collection of all that happened since the beginning since the feeling of beingness was born the very first time.
When digging further the feeling is that there is someone there who can feel. The one who feels in me wearing the cloak of Ashu must be the I of my mind body construct as distinct from another construct.
On digging a bit more it appears that this I doesn't have a locus standii so to say. It's so many n yet nothing. But it stays in me as mine as my frame cannot find how it will be in any other frame.
It's my beingness which has been there since birth.
I am sure of its presence irrespective of its cloak.
Thats what it is.
Thanks.
Regards
Life is a celebration, Enjoy it
Ashutosh

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yuvi
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby yuvi » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:30 am

As you rightly mentioned, all that you wrote are "thoughts about Ashu".

Even when you felt that you dug deeper (which is more thinking and not LOOKING), you wrote, "It's my beingness which has been there since birth." These words comes from THOUGHTS.

Notice this: The moment you wanted to describe an experience in order to reply me, a "thought" immediately pops up and narrates as you type the letters on keyboard. The words like "beingness", "since birth", "digging deeper", etc. all come from these subtle thoughts that goes unexamined.

Read my explanation on DE. We will try again:

Think a thought "I am sitting on a sofa".
Where_does_this_"I"_point_to__in_this_thought? Please look at DE and write to me.
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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indianseeker
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby indianseeker » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:14 am

Thanks.

It appears that you have already found out from where I am operating. That's why the need for a guide. Grateful.

If you may please go back a step. I need to first understand DE and T clearly. I seem to miss the difference and it appears that I am mostly living from my Thoughts and that's why the confusion.
I go back to the previous post where you explained the difference. I have quoted the same below...

great then!

In this process, I will give you questions or pointers for you to “LOOK” and reply to me. “Looking” is not same as “thinking”. “Looking” means observing, with concentration, the experience right here and now. This is the Direct Experience (DE).

When looking, be sure to look at ‘thoughts’ as ‘thoughts’ (regardless of what thoughts says or images that appears mentally), and ‘sensations’ as ‘sensations’ (regardless of what thoughts labels these sensations). It is crucial that you are sincere in this process to notice how your imagined self comes into being.

For e.g. I may ask, what is the DE of writing an email to your friend. You may reply, “there is a sight of laptop in front of me and my hands typing letters. There is sensation in my fingers as I type.” I will now explain the difference between "Direct Experience" and "Words that comes out of thinking -or- thoughts" in the above statement using these abbreviations: T- Thought, DE-Direct Experience.

“there is a sight (DE) of laptop (T) in front of (T) me (T) and my (T) hands (T) typing (T) letters(T) . There is sensation (DE) in my (T) fingers (T) as I (T) type (T).”

Shall we begin?

What is the direct experience of “I” now?
.....

You said looking DE is looking with concentration; the experience in the now. Looking with concentration the experience in the now....

Firstly, Does this mean looking as a witness? Do we have to concentrate on 'who' actually is looking in reference to what he is looking at or sensing?

Secondly, if sensations are labeled thoughts then in the example you gave sensation is ref as DE? Similarly, Sight too is a sensation. Then how is it a DE? Pl help me clear this difference once again. My starting point is flawed presently. You'll need to straighten this first before we can proceed to the larger 'I'.
I will attempt your question when my confusion wrt DE and Thought difference is clear.

Sincere regards
ashu
Life is a celebration, Enjoy it
Ashutosh

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yuvi
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby yuvi » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:49 am

Firstly, Does this mean looking as a witness? Do we have to concentrate on 'who' actually is looking in reference to what he is looking at or sensing?
No. These ‘witness’ and the ‘witnessed’ doubts are coming up as you have read a lot of hindu books on this topic. These are just thoughts. For now start with what is currently experienced like ‘seeing, touching, hearing, smelling and tasting’. Thoughts will also appear, but we are not concerned about what its contents are. Thoughts are just learned memory feedback, a mental noice that comes and goes. Experience of thought is real- as it experienced in DE- but what it points to is NOT REAL.

So it is extremely important not to ‘believe’ in thoughts, but to look at the raw experience as it is and report to me. I can discern your responses if it is coming from thinking or from direct experience.
As we go forward, your focus increases on this mode of looking at DE; eventually you will see for yourself what you came here for.
Secondly, if sensations are labeled thoughts then in the example you gave sensation is ref as DE? Similarly, Sight too is a sensation. Then how is it a DE?
Good you pointed out, as I generally use the word sensation for ‘touch, pressure’ sensations. I will henceforth use words ‘sight, taste, smell, hear, touch’

I hope I am clear.

Suppose you have a thought, for e.g., "I am sitting on a sofa.” (it can be any thought with an "I" in it)
Where_does_this_"I"_point_to_in_this_thought?

Report from DE (ignore what thought says – be it a mental image or language)
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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indianseeker
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby indianseeker » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:48 pm

Thanks once again. Good session. It's fascinating how too much reading can cloud an experience. I am beggining to get it.

In the eg
I am sitting on the sofa, there are only two DEs,
1- is the sight of sofa as seeing
2- is the sensation of touch as sitting

Rest all including I am are thoughts as there is no one there to feel touch smell taste or see.
So, the I points to nothing but thoughts. The only real experience is seeing the sofa and feeling it in my bumps....

Thanks
Ashu
Life is a celebration, Enjoy it
Ashutosh

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yuvi
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby yuvi » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:42 am

very good..

now let's explore the experience of sitting in a sofa.
The only real experience is seeing the sofa and feeling it in my bumps.
notice again, before you wanted to type the experience, there are thoughts that are labeling what you experienced:

in this e.g. seeing (DE) the sofa (A word that comes from thought label) and feeling (there is no such thing called 'feeling', it is also a label thought gives to a bunch of sensations) it in my bumps (again a word that comes from thought label).

look again: before a thought appears, is the word 'sofa' or bumps' or 'feeling' known? what is the DE of sitting in a sofa now?
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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indianseeker
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby indianseeker » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:15 am

Thanks.
Going a step back, if I were to close my eyes n sit, then even seeing the sofa as DE vanishes.
Coming back to prior to thought stage, of course there was nothing before the birth if the thought.
Thanks
Life is a celebration, Enjoy it
Ashutosh

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yuvi
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby yuvi » Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:50 am

I were to close my eyes n sit, then even seeing the sofa as DE vanishes.
No, do not close your eyes. Just keep them open and look.

Pointer: When you listen to what thought says, then what is "seen" (as a visual image) is divided into "my-body" and "not-my-body" (division no. 1). Thought further divides the "my-body" into into eyes, arms, legs, etc (division 2). Then thought also divides "not-my-body or world' into different objects (division 3). All these divisions come from thought contents. These divisions do not happen sequentially (it is only a pointer), but exist subtly because of the belief in a separation. So in DE, we are trying to see the experience as it is without believing what thought says.

Let's try again:
I were to close my eyes n sit, then even seeing the sofa as DE vanishes.
Revisit this sentence you typed and reply me again - but this time from DE.

1. Where does this "my" point to to in the above statement?

2. Where does word "eyes" come from? Does experience know anything about "eyes" before a thought comes to label 'eyes' for a bunch of sensations?

3. Where does the word 'sofa' comes from? Does experience know anything about "sofa" before a thought comes to label a part of a visual image as 'sofa'?
there was nothing before the birth of the thought.
How can there be 'nothing"? There are experience of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. Only concepts are not there without a thought.

Before a thought, or between two thoughts, where is the "I"?
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF. YOU CAN ONLY BE YOURSELF.

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indianseeker
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Re: Liberation from unawareness to conscious awareness

Postby indianseeker » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:43 am

Thanks.
I need two days to reply this.
Thanks
Life is a celebration, Enjoy it
Ashutosh


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