Updessh and Christiane

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Ghata
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Updessh and Christiane

Postby Ghata » Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:26 pm

Protocol of Chat guiding in Liberation Unleashed Facebook group:

Updesh: @Christine: Is it a compulsion of the language to demand for a 'thinker' against 'thinking' or against 'thoughts'? Is it because of this linguistic compulsion that the illusion of 'I' arises? If we blame the Language, then the question arises that who has created the Language?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 1 · 20. März um 14:23

Christiane: Updesh, play with language: Write down what you are experiencing right now. For example: I look out of the window. I hear the computer fan humming. I see the red roses in the vase. My fingers are typing away. Do that for about 5 min. and notice how you...Mehr anzeigen
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 1 · 20. März um 14:35

Updesh Second one, the one without an 'l'
Gefällt mir nicht mehr · Antworten · 1 · 23. März um 12:06

Updesh: What do you say?
Gefällt mir nicht mehr · Antworten · 1 · 23. März um 12:25
Christiane Hi Updesh, Agreed „smile“-Emoticon. The I inbetween dims life. You are doing really well with looking. What about getting the app or the book or a guide and do the whole thing, seeing thrugh the illusion of self?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 1 · 23. März um 14:05
Updesh Thank You!! Yes, tell me more about the app, book and guide.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 14:17

Christiane If you go to http://www.liberationunleashed.com, you will find all resources. You don't have to register if you have a look around. Click around, look at the videos, download the quotes app and/or the book, read the ongoing or archived dialogues in the forum. If you feel you want to be guided, register. You can still come here and talk with me „smile“-Emoticon
Gefällt mir · Antworten · Vorschau entfernen · 23. März um 14:33

Updesh Is the self like a chariot with wheel, axle etc. Is the self a collective of feelings, perceptions, predispositions and consciousness alonwith the physical body?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 15:16

Updesh Please say something Christiane.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 15:36

Christiane Hi Updesh, I am not always at the computer. Have a look. What do you mean when you say " I"?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 16:39

Updesh It appears to refer to nothing. It is likely to be merely a linguistic subject and not a real subject. There is even a possibility to eliminate this 'I' through logical analysis of language. What do you have to say about this?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 1 · 23. März um 16:47

Updesh I just a belief created by language.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 16:48
Christiane Good analysis. Now see it for yourself, in your own experience. When I ask you to show me your hand or foot, you can point to it. Where do you point when I ask you to show me "You, Updesh?"
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 17:38
Updesh If you will ask me to point at Updesh, I will direct you to my body and my thoughts.
Gefällt mir nicht mehr · Antworten · 1 · 23. März um 18:03 · Bearbeitet

Updesh Christiane
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:01
Christiane Where do you feel the I?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:02

Updesh In my thoughts
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:03

Christiane Sit down, relax a bit and watch the thoughts. One arises, then the next one, the next one. Can an I be found amongst them?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:04

Updesh There is no I. Thoughts collectively are being termed as 'I'
Gefällt mir nicht mehr · Antworten · 1 · 23. März um 18:05

Christiane So I is a label for all thoughts?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:06

Updesh Yes.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:08

Updesh All thoughts + Physical Body.
Gefällt mir nicht mehr · Antworten · 1 · 23. März um 18:08

Christiane Very good „smile“-Emoticon. Is there any separate I in any physical form or shape?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:09

Updesh No
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:10

Christiane Who/what is answering me here?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:11

Updesh My hands and my thoughts.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:13

Updesh Or rather, hands and thoughts.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:13

Christiane „smile“-Emoticon. Brilliant. I was going to ask about "my" hands.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:14

Christiane How does that feel?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:14

Updesh It feels like void.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:15

Updesh Difficult to say how it feels. Maybe it feels like nothing, void.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:16

Christiane Let the void be there. Feel it. I'll stay here with you. How does it feel?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:16

Christiane Is it frightening?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:16

Updesh The word frightening has frightened me.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:17

Christiane Haha. „smile“-Emoticon
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:17

Updesh Or rather, the word frightening has created some sensations.
Gefällt mir nicht mehr · Antworten · 1 · 23. März um 18:18

Christiane Is there a window where you are right now, where you can look outside?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:18

Updesh I am in front of an Ocean. Arabian side of Indian Ocean.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:19

Updesh It feels like a void because the 'I' which holds the ego appears to be weakening.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:20

Updesh It is getting dismembered.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:21

Christiane Good.I like that expression: "It is getting dismembered". „smile“-Emoticon Go to the window and look over the Ocean. See the movement of the water, the movement of people, plants, trees. Feel the breath, moving on its own. The heart pumping on it's own. The guts doing their job on their own. See how everything just happens. Is there a master-doer, orchestrating this? I will wait until you come back and share your experience.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:23

Updesh ok.Übersetzung anzeigen
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:29

Christiane Share what you experienced, please.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:30

Updesh I am getting no answers.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:34

Updesh But there appears to be no one.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:35

Updesh Could you give me directions? Please.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:36

Christiane Lovely „smile“-Emoticon. I hope you get this answer.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:36

Christiane Did you get my answer?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:37

Updesh A man has come and he is asking for alms.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:37

Christiane Okay. What a coincidence! Is he still there?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:38

Updesh I want you to get me more clarity. My intent is bonafide.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:41

Christiane „heart“-Emoticon. What is unclear?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:42

Updesh He was asking for food. I gave him some of my fruit cake which I had bought in the evening.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:42

Christiane Yes, very good.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:43

Updesh You asked me to look around. I found no answer. So I want more clarity on this.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:43 · Bearbeitet

Christiane You couldn't find a master doer?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:43

Updesh No
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:44

Christiane Good.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:44

Christiane Who is looking out of your eyes?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:45

Christiane through your eyes, I mean
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:45

Updesh I am getting no answer even to this question.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:50 · Bearbeitet

Updesh Maybe there is just looking and no one looking. Just like there are water waves crashing but no crasher.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:52 · Bearbeitet

Christiane Really good, Updesh, your looking is very good. Listen to the sound that can be heard. Can you find somebody who is hearing? Or is there just hearing?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:51

Updesh There is just looking and hearing. But why do they get combined in our experience. Is it because they are concomitant?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:56

Christiane What get's combined in our experience?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:56

Updesh hearing, looking etc
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:58

Christiane Excuse me, I don't fully get it. Hearing and looking gets combined...to what. What happens when it is combined?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 18:58

Updesh Ok. I think my Question has distracted you. You go ahead your way.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 19:04

Christiane Do you mean it is combined to a feeling of" I see, I hear?", though there is just seeing and hearing?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 19:05

Christiane Are you still there?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 19:12

Updesh Yes. Very much.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 19:12

Christiane Go to my post before the last one. Is that what you mean with combined?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 19:13

Christiane Please answer :-9
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 19:16

Updesh For example, I am seeing and hearing waves at the beach. This sight and sound which I am hearing gets combined and is being termed as waves.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 19:16

Updesh For example, I am seeing and hearing waves at the beach. This sight and sound which I am hearing gets combined and is being termed as waves.
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 19:16

Updesh Zero battery in the phone now. Will go off anytime now. But I will be back in few moments.
Gefällt mir nicht mehr · Antworten · 1 · 23. März um 19:18

Christiane Now I get it „smile“-Emoticon.What is perceived when just looking at them without combining and labeling? What combines what is seen and names it "wave"?
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 1 · 23. März um 19:18

Christiane I suggest that you answer this question and then we will meet tomorrow again. I will have a look at your answer in about an hour. See how life feels now, what do you notice? Let us make an appointment. My local time is CET+1. Suggest a time, I am free tomorrow. Lots of love, you did a great job „heart“-Emoticon
Gefällt mir · Antworten · 23. März um 19:46

Updesh Good Morning Christiane. Thank You for sharing your wisdom and time. It was a very exciting exercise yesterday esp that feeling of void. 1) I don't know who combines. But all perceptions of hearing, seeing etc do appear as a one connected whole. I don't know how would a deaf and mute person who knows no language answer this question. But probably his answer is likely to be free of many beliefs which afflict Linguistic Humans. 2) If there are just thoughts and no thinker then from where do thoughts come from? 3) I am noticing that every word is a belief. Beliefs are arranged in a hierarchy. Maybe even 'heirarchy' is another belief. For example, consider the sentence ''this carpet is red in color. '' Here itself there are so many beliefs. Carpet is a belief. It is a combination of fabrics. Even fabric is a belief. Fabric is a combination of so many fibres and threads. Even threads are a belief and so on. What is the reality then? Another belief is 'Red' and categorisation of red to the class of colors. Color is another belief.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 06:35



Christiane You were right in saying, that all everything is a belief. All words are just that - words. What is left when you take all the beliefs away?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:20

Updessh Only experience remains when words are taken away.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:21


Christiane „like“-Emoticon

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:22

Christiane And is there anybody experiencing something, or is there just experiencing?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:22


Updessh Just experience. I don't find 'I' the experiencer

Gefällt mir nicht mehr · Antworten · 1 · 24. März um 07:24
Updesh But where do thoughts come from?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:24

Christiane Yes, there is just experiencing. We will come to thoughts in a moment. These are some breathtaking insights you are having. How do you feel about it?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:25

Updesh Could you please give me few moments to feel this question more vividly?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:31

..
Updesh In my general experiences I am not able to find anyone who is experiencing.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:39


Christiane That is quite a different view on life than it used to be, isn't it?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:40

Updesh Yes!! That is a very different view certainly. The assumption of 'I' is generally too profound in everyday life. It penetrates all our discourse without analysis.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:42

Christiane It certainly does! Are you 100% sure that there is no 'I'?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:43

Updesh I can neither say that there is an 'I', nor can I say that there isn't an 'I'. At best what can be said is that there is no experience of 'I' in my consciousness.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:46


Christiane Very well said, Updesh „heart“-Emoticon. Is there anything of which you can say it is or it isn't? Or is everything only known as exxperience?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:47

Updesh Because to say that there is no 'I', one will have to traverse the entire space and time. Only when it is found no where can one conclude that there is no 'I'

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:48
Christiane Do time and space exist? Can you experience time directly? Can you feel the time moving? Can you experience space?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:49

Updesh There is no space and time which is immediate to experience.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:56

Christiane Updesh, your looking is brilliant „smile“-Emoticon

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:57

Christiane Michelberger As for the I, it should be right with you, not somewhere else. Can you experience it?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:58

Updesh In between thoughts there is no thought. This is interpreted as time.

Gefällt mir nicht mehr · Antworten · 1 · 24. März um 07:58


Updesh As I said, I can't experience any 'I' which is here now.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 07:59

Christiane Is "The I could be somewhere else" experience or a thought?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:00

Updesh Obviously it is a thought.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:01

Updesh Yes. Thank You for coming to thoughts.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:04
Updesh Right now thoughts of pending assignments like creating a CV for my brother, applying for an exam etc are coming to my mind.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:08
Christiane Ok. Where do these thoughts come from and where do they go to? Have a look.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:09

Updesh I don't know where they are coming from. I am largely thoughtless right now. Yes, there is also a thought of expectation and hope from this conversation with you.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:10
Updesh I don't know that from where do they come. They just come and fade away after some time.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:12
Christiane Right. It can't be known where they come from and go to in direct experience. - Talk about you your expectation and hope

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:12
Updesh Yes, one more observation. If favorable conditions for a thought persist for long then that thought stays for long. Example, if I am sitting in office with a file, then thoughts related to the contents of that file remain for long as file is in front of me for long.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:17
Christiane Right.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:18
Christiane The attention is on the file and thoughts related to it will come up.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:19

Updesh Yes. Focus/attention leads to thoughts related to it.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:19
Updesh Routine habbits of the past are also a determinant for thoughts.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:21

Christiane Yes.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:21

Christiane Can you find anybody thinking the thoughts? Or can thoughts themselves think?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:22

Updesh For example, thought of Germany leads to thoughts like Centre of Europe, Automobiles, Aryans, Hitler, World Wars, Berlin Wall, German, Germ, Germanic, Merkel, better economy than other EU members, DAAD, University of Hamburg, Rivalry with France etc

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:26

Christiane Is this the thought of Germany thinking or do the associated thoughts come up by themselves just like any other ones?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:27

Updesh Whatever I have stored with the label of Germany is coming up.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:30

Christiane When you look closely, can you actually find a place where memories are stored or are these just words? Some words are names for something that exists (water) and some words point to something that doesn't exist.(batman).

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:32
Updesh Associated thoughts come up spontaneously. Maybe our brain has got some google like search features haha.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:33 · Bearbeitet

Christiane Haha „smile“-Emoticon. Google is a copy „wink“-Emoticon

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:33


Updesh No I can't find a place where these thoughts about Germany and are stored in memory. But when I tried to search for them in memory, images of textbook pages where I read about Germany came up.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:37 · Bearbeitet


Christiane Updesh, I love how precisely you are looking „smile“-Emoticon. Thoughts come in two ways. Either as a word with letters, that can be seen or heard or as a mental image. The image of a textbook is a mental image, a thought as well. - Can you know which thought will be coming next, and can you stop it from coming if you don't like it?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:38

Updesh How do thoughts of sound, touch and taste come? Generally through words??

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:41

Updesh The thoughts related to time of my life when I was reading that chapter of History on Germany are coming next.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:43

Updesh If I try to stop a thought, it becomes all the more vivid.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:44

Christiane Haha, yes „smile“-Emoticon. And can you know what thought will be next?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:44

Updesh A good way to stop a thought is to focus on some other thought.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:45

Christiane then you didn't stop it but the attention went somewhere else. We are hardwired to seek only pleasant experiences.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:45

Updesh Yes. You have put it in a better way. I haven't actually stopped the thought. But it effectively fades and dies away.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:50
Christiane Right. If you don't pay attention to a thought, it will just take it's natural course and fade away.

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:51

Christiane Can you know what thought will be next?

Gefällt mir · Antworten · 24. März um 08:51

Updessh No I don't know that what thought will be next.
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 08:51

Updessh No I don't know that what thought will be next.
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 08:51


Updessh No I don't know that what thought will be next.
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 08:52


Christiane Let's come to smell, taste, touch in thoughts. This is the last exercise I am going to give you for now and I suggest we meet again later in the day. For example my time 4:30 pm
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 08:52


Updessh Ok
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 08:52


Christiane Close your eyes and imagine a big green watermelon. Pick it up, feel it's weight. Knock on it. Is it ripe? Then take a knife and cut it. Feel the slightly sticky juice run over your fingers. Have a bite. Is it sweet? --- Now open your eyes again. Where is the watermelon gone?
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 08:54


Updessh Ok!! I did as you directed. But when I imagined about the knife, I felt that as if knife is trying to injure my eyes. But I resisted that thought to go ahead and cut the melon. Next, the seeds of melon were now becoming an irritant, so I imagined my watermelon to be seed free. Then, I had a slice of it. I didn't feel the juice, soft texture or sweetness but I did salivate.
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 09:04 • Bearbeitet


Christiane Good! Where is the watermelon now?
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 09:03


Updessh I don't know that where it is now.
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 09:05 • Bearbeitet


Christiane Has it ever been there, the one you imagined?
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 09:05


Updessh Yes it was there in thought when I imagined it. Right now it is coming up again as I am typing about it. So it is coming and going. It comes up even when I ask myself that 'has it gone? '
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 09:08


Christiane Would you have been able to touch it with your real hands?
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 09:08


Updessh No
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 09:11


Christiane You couldn't eat the watermelon with your mouth in reality, nor could you touch it with you fingers, smell it with your nose or taste it with your tongue or see it with your eyes. In that sense the watermelon wasn't real, it was a mental image. As you saw these images can produces body reactions like salivation. Also feelings, when you think of somebody you love for example.
Gefällt mir nicht mehr • Antworten • 1 • 24. März um 09:14


Christiane Thoughts create a cyberreality. Until tonight I like you to notice, when you are in the reality that can be perceived with the 5 senses and when you are in cyberreality. How is the percentage? Do they show the same or something different? Ok? Can you be back at 4:30 my time pm, that should be 9 pm. your time?
Gefällt mir • Antworten • 24. März um 09:16

Continued as private Chat.
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Ghata
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Re: Updessh and Christiane

Postby Ghata » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:19 pm

Excerpts from private Chat:


Christiane
Okay, yes it is a bit more "real". I'll repeat my question.:" What caused this feeling that there is a self at the centre of everything?"
24.03.2016 17:36

Updesh
I don't know that what has caused that feeling. It has been like that all the time. What caused us to label the experience of seeing and hearing the beach water as 'wave'? It is similar.
24.03.2016 17:36

Christiane
Good!
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from yesterday evening and today.
24.03.2016 17:43

Updesh
I once went for a 10 day Buddhist meditation program where a technique called Aana Paana was practised. Basically we were asked to continually observe the breath and sensations. I left that meditation camp in 2 days as I had some urgent personal issues. It was told there that effects of that meditation will become perceptible over extended period of time. I have been trying to practise that technique whenever I get time. Overall, my ego in terms of dealing with others has shrunk significantly. But my ambitions are still too loud.
24.03.2016 17:45

Updesh
Wrt to yesterday, there have been some significant changes. Conversations with you have added noteworthy practical clarity towards seeing the illusion of the self.

Updesh
I want to say that even if 'I' is an illusion, the problems that confound us remain.
Even after knowing that it is an illusion, the problem is not solved.

24.03.2016 17:51

Christiane
What problem for example?

24.03.2016 17:52

Updesh
I don't know what problem. I am sorry. I may be sounding incoherent.
But there is unease. Feeling of dissatisfaction.

24.03.2016 17:56

Christiane
Talk about it. What is not satisfying?

24.03.2016 17:58

Updesh
I want to be an Indian Diplomat and join the Foreign Affairs Ministry as a Group A Officer. I have been trying hard for 3 years. Haven't made it yet. This leads to dissatisfaction with 'self'

24.03.2016 17:58

Christiane
Ok
Is there anybody who can try hard and not make it?

24.03.2016 18:00

Updesh
No. There is just the feeling of dissatisfaction.

24.03.2016 18:00

Christiane
Yes.

24.03.2016 18:00

Updesh
No. There is just the feeling/ezperience of dissatisfaction just like there was just salivation and no watermelon.
No. There is just the feeling/experience of dissatisfaction just like there was just salivation and no watermelon.

24.03.2016 18:01

Christiane
How does dissatisfaction feel? Where in the body can it be found and what sensations are there?

24.03.2016 18:03

Updesh
Dissatisfaction is delocalised. It is seen in form of sweat on nose and forehead, in form of fastened heart beat, in form of headache etc.
It feels not desirable.

24.03.2016 18:04

Christiane
Allow the sensations to be felt fully, even if they are unpleasant. Maybe close your eyes. When feeling the pure sensations, how does that feel?

24.03.2016 18:06

Updesh
Yes it is easing.
This exercise of observing sensations and breath learnt at Vipassana Meditation camp has always been easing for me.
Even I do it for few minutes, it helps a lot.

24.03.2016 18:08

Christiane
Yes. When you just feel the sensations, they are like thoughts passing through. It's the labels that make them pleasant or unpleasant.
Have a look again at what's left
Is there a feeler and the felt or just feeling?

24.03.2016 18:11

Updesh
You mean that dissatisfaction is a label to all these metabolic expressions?
You mean that dissatisfaction is a label to all these metabolic expressions of body.
You mean that dissatisfaction is a label to all these metabolic expressions of body?

24.03.2016 18:12

Christiane

In this case I mean is there somebody feeling a feeling or is there just the feeling experience. - Is dissatisfaction just a label like "wave" or "I"?


24.03.2016 18:14

Updesh
It is probably a label.
What is the order. What comes first?


24.03.2016 18:16

Christiane
have a look. is it a label or are the sensations themselves dissatisfaction


24.03.2016 18:17

Updesh
It appears that the word dissatisfaction comes after these feelings. Then why do these feelings come in the 1st place. From where are they coming?


24.03.2016 18:17

Christiane
Find out. What made them arise?
It is right. The label comes second


24.03.2016 18:20

Updesh
Maybe these feelings came from a general pensive mood because of being away from family.


24.03.2016 18:21

Christiane
So they are caused by thoughts?


24.03.2016 18:23

Updesh
Presently I am working with the Govt. I am in taxation. I am posted away from home. So maybe because of that all other dissatisfying thoughts are coming up.
Lot of 'I' there.
And I see that you are giving me a lot of space to speak. THANK YOU!!


24.03.2016 18:25

Christiane
„heart“-Emoticon


24.03.2016 18:25

Updesh


24.03.2016 18:26

Christiane
The sense of I can come up after seeing it is an illusion. It is normal.
Thoughts are followed by sensations and feelings, feelings lead to new thoughts, thoughts to new feelings....I anybody thinking these thoughts or are they coming up on their own?
Is anybody


24.03.2016 18:27

Updesh
They just keep moving like a train on their own.


24.03.2016 18:27

Christiane
Good picture!


24.03.2016 18:28

Updesh
But we are not sure that which boogie/compartment will be the next one in this train.


24.03.2016 18:29

Christiane
Haha, right. First class luxury or cattle wagon


24.03.2016 18:30

Updesh
But maybe we can say that pleasant thoughts lead to pleasant ones and unpleasant thoughts lead to unpleasant ones. Is that correct?..... Haha. That's bad. We should not do that to cattle.


24.03.2016 18:30

Christiane
Yes, usually pleasant thoughts lead to pleasant sensations. And we are hardwired to only want pleasant sensations. - I would like to come to an end for today. What about meeting tomorrow at 5 pm my time, 9.30 pm your time or is it too late? Please
The exercise for tomorrow: Notice how thoughts are labeling everything that is experienced and done. When do thoughts put a label on it? How do thoughts make you think there is an I doing things? Alright?


24.03.2016 18:32

Updesh
Alright!!

24.03.2016 18:43

Updesh
As creators of Language, what humans can do is that they should retain all the pleasant labels like 'Thank You', 'Welcome' etc. And discard and forget all unpleasant labels.
How would that do?


24.03.2016 19:39

Christiane
„smile“-Emoticon. Where did you get the labels from?


24.03.2016 19:40

Updesh
I got them from books, parents, school, teachers etc


24.03.2016 19:42

Christiane
Hey you are still up?
Right, labels are taught.


24.03.2016 19:44

Updesh
Yes. Still about. Trying to sleep.
Up*
Yes. Still up. Trying to sleep.


24.03.2016 19:46

Christiane
Good night, sleep well?

24.03.2016 20:24

Christiane
Let's go to another phenomenon. What is your take on this: Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? . Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you) What are you responsible for?" You can take your time to answer it, it doesn't have tto be in the middle of the night „wink“-Emoticon


24.03.2016 20:27

Updesh
It is a multi layered question. Can you break this question for me into smaller and simpler questions.


24.03.2016 20:28

Christiane
How is something chosen? Chosen to do something, decide something


24.03.2016 20:28

Updesh
Are you a very intelligent lady?
„smile“-Emoticon


24.03.2016 20:29

Christiane
„grin“-Emoticon


24.03.2016 20:30

Updesh
I decided to become a structural engineer because that was a quick way for me to raise social class status of my family.
And so I went to a Civil Engineering school of a reputed university in India.


24.03.2016 20:32

Christiane
Now you have seen that there is no I. Who chose?


24.03.2016 20:32

Updesh
Thoughts choose other thoughts.
One boogie chooses the next boogie


24.03.2016 20:32

Christiane
Can thoughts do anything?
Can they choose?


24.03.2016 20:33

Updesh
I don't know.
But some thoughts follow other. So there appears to be some connection.
For example, thought of younger brother brings another thought of responsibility.


24.03.2016 20:36

Christiane
Ok. So tomorrow you have two exercises: Notice how thoughts are commenting what you are doing. Second: Find the "choice point", the exact point when a choice is made and immediately followed by action. And now I wish you a good nights sleep „smile“-Emoticon


24.03.2016 20:38

Updesh
Ok. Sorry for demanding too much. Wishes of Good Sleep for you too.


24.03.2016 20:39

Christiane
No worries, Updesh. I won't answer when it is inconveniant „smile“-Emoticon


24.03.2016 20:40

Updesh
If the illusion of 'I' fades away from my experience, will I leave my worldly ambitions? I am afraid of that. I have family responsibilities.
I have a philosophical quest. But that doesn't adds to my earning capacities. Moreover, your analysis will ultimately reveal that family is a thought.


24.03.2016 20:44

Christiane
Go ahead


24.03.2016 20:44

Updesh
Which is correct in terms of the line in which we are discussing. But that doesn't solve the expectations placed upon me by my parents and brother.
That's it.


24.03.2016 20:46

Christiane
Yes, these are difficult issues.
They are still there now that you have seen the I is an illusion.
In your society these expectations are high


24.03.2016 20:49

Updesh
Had they asked me before giving birth to me that whether I want to come to this world, I would have denied. But now they have given birth to me and raised me with all their capacities. So I am under a debt which I never asked for. But anyway the debt stands.
Had they asked me before giving birth to me that whether I want to come to this world, I would have denied. But now they have given birth to me and raised me with all their capacities, so I am under a debt which I never asked for. But anyway the debt stands.


24.03.2016 20:51

Christiane
What is the direct experience of the debt?


24.03.2016 20:53

Updesh
That is the point. What should I go and tell them? That I have no direct experience of all that you have done. That will either be the cowardice or extreme selfishness
That is the point. What should I go and tell them? That I have no direct experience of all that you have done. That will either be cowardice or extreme selfishness
There?


24.03.2016 20:57

Christiane
Yes.
It doesn't matter what THEY know. All that matters is what you know and experience. So what is the direct experience of debt? Lets see where it leads.
Now I am getting rather tired, we will have to continue tomorrow, I am going to bed as well „smile“-Emoticon
I will read your answer tomorrow „smile“-Emoticon
Good night


24.03.2016 21:30

Updesh
Good Night.


25.03.2016 17:00


Updesh
Hi!! Sorry Christiane for being too late in replying. I entered a passionate conversation with my younger brother.

25.03.2016 17:51

Christiane
Hi Updesh, ok. I only got 40 min. from now on.

25.03.2016 17:52

Updesh
Ok.
That is great. You sometimes do dramatic things in couple of minutes. 40 is too much.

25.03.2016 17:53

Christiane
Ok. Tell what dramatic things you did.

25.03.2016 17:53

Updesh
You or I?

25.03.2016 17:54

Christiane
You. Did you find the choice point, the exact moment when you choose?

25.03.2016 17:54

Updesh
Yes.

25.03.2016 17:54

Christiane
Tell me more

25.03.2016 17:56

Updesh
No. I am sorry. I can't say about an exact moment. I can just say that labelling happens after experience. But thought and labelling are probably simultaneous. Probably there is no distinction between thought and label.
I am sorry. I am not sure about that.

25.03.2016 17:57

Christiane
Good! Labeling happpens after experience. Right. And thought and label is the same. The thought comes as a word, and the word is the label.
No need to be sorry.
The choice point - is there any choice point?

25.03.2016 17:58

Updesh
So I am correct

25.03.2016 17:58

Christiane
Yes

25. März


25.03.2016 17:58

Updesh
There is no choice point.


25.03.2016 17:58

Christiane
Right. Is there anybody choosing?


25.03.2016 18:00

Updesh
That chooser is long dead. If any, the chooser is itself a thought.


25.03.2016 18:00

Christiane
„like“-Emoticon
What about free will?


25.03.2016 18:00

Updesh
We were to discuss about that.


25.03.2016 18:00

Christiane
Right. What is your take?


25.03.2016 18:02

Updesh
The locus of free will was 'I'. That beloved is no more.


25.03.2016 18:02

Christiane
„smile“-Emoticon
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Re: Updessh and Christiane

Postby Ghata » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:32 pm

Christiane
What was the I made of?


25.03.2016 18:07

Updesh
Thoughts


25.03.2016 18:07

Christiane
Did a real I ever exist?


25.03.2016 18:08

Updesh
No. I can't touch such an 'I'


25.03.2016 18:08

Christiane
Do you see little children how they learn that it is not "Updesh wants a drink" but "I want a drink"?


25.03.2016 18:09

Updesh
Ok. So the schooling and language has created I??


25.03.2016 18:09

Christiane
Yes. It is as much a label as "wave"


25.03.2016 18:10

Updesh
Ok.

Christiane
What was the I made of?


25.03.2016 18:07

Updesh
Thoughts


25.03.2016 18:07

Christiane
Did a real I ever exist?


25.03.2016 18:08

Updesh
No. I can't touch such an 'I'


25.03.2016 18:08

Christiane
Do you see little children how they learn that it is not "Updesh wants a drink" but "I want a drink"?


25.03.2016 18:09

Updesh
Ok. So the schooling and language has created I??


25.03.2016 18:09

Christiane
Yes. It is as much a label as "wave"


25.03.2016 18:10

Updesh
Ok.


25.03.2016 18:10


25.03.2016 18:20

Updesh
Don't want to undermine your efforts at all. Intellectually I can understand all that you have been trying to convey. Pretty much agree to all of it. But words/thoughts that pop from within are ''So what if I is an Illusion. '' The race, dissatisfaction, ambition, passions etc continue. But you have told a good way, probably tremendous was to see all these words as labels and feel the body processes which these words are labelling. Thank You!!


25.03.2016 18:20

Christiane
You are most welcome. Lets look at the race, disssatiisfaction...Start with one thing you are dissatisfied wiith.


25.03.2016 18:21

Updesh
Career


25.03.2016 18:21

Christiane
Ok.


25.03.2016 18:21

Updesh
I have to leave a stamp on the world before I leave.


25.03.2016 18:21

Christiane
who/what says that?


25.03.2016 18:22

Updesh
That is thought
That is a thought


25.03.2016 18:22

Christiane
Right


25.03.2016 18:23

Updesh
So what? Even if it is a thought, it still 'is'.


25.03.2016 18:24

Christiane
Yes. It still is. So what? it can be. It just is a thought that comes up habitually and probably makes you feel uneasy. That's all.
For now what you see is that there is just the thought and there is no I to accomplish what thought says.


27.03.2016 09:48

Updesh
There were ridiculously satisfied people. There are ridiculously satisfied people. There are people preparing to become ridiculously satisfied. There will be ridiculously satisfied people. There will be people wanting to become ridiculously satisfied. There will be people who will become ridiculously satisfied.
This thought is coming to my mind now. And another thought coming is that permanence is a myth. Another thought of conclusion of all this coming to my mind right is that if permanence is a myth and life is momentary, then why settle for stability and easiness. Why not enterprise, take risks. One anyway has to deal with chaos.
But I am not sure about corresponding sensations in body. I am in Mumbai local where I don't like to be.

27.03.2016 10:16

Updesh
Now I am noticing a heaviness in the chest.
Short breath.
Christiane
The last two post are a very nice description of the sensations coming with your thoughts. These thoughts are breathtaking! Have a look around and see whether you can find something that is permanent. Look at every single thing. Will it be there forever?
And also see whether you can find this Updesh, who wants to become a higher rank diplomat. Where is he?

28.03.2016 08:49

Christiane
On another note: I am in a very rural area right now and the interrnet isn't stabel, especially in the evening when more people try to connect via their mobile devices. I may not be able to acess the internet for our appointment. If I am not there, please answer my questions above and we will continue our talk, it just will not be simultaneously. Much love, Christiane
• 28. März

28.03.2016 17:32

Updesh
No. There is no such Updesh in my experience. It is a thought which constitutes Updesh.

28.03.2016 17:40

Updesh
Also another thought has happened. Today, for some reason, I had to be with an super rich family and that too at their premises. For the 1st time I have seen this huge ridiculous material richness. I have been in awe for half of the day. Being here has terribly faded the thought/aim of being/becoming a senior rank diplomat. Thoughts of opulence have dominated my mind. Thought that it is better to work hard and have self owned business has frequently recurred to my mind so that I too can be so prosperous someday.

28.03.2016 17:45

Christiane
Who is this I that can be prosperous some day? Don't answer quickly, have another look inside.
• 28. März

28.03.2016 21:47

Updesh
It may be true that there is no 'I'. But it is not a good scheme to first brand 'I' as a thought and then dump the entire concept of thought because it is just a thought.
Point is that the thought 'is'.
And that can't be brushed aside.
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Re: Updessh and Christiane

Postby Ghata » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:37 pm

• 29.03.2016 20:30

Christiane
Hi Updesh, I have a question for you: Is thought content real in the sense that you can experience it with your senses?

29.03.2016 20:54

Updesh
That would depend on what you would define senses as.

29.03.2016 21:31

Updesh
Is mind/intellect not a sense?
Yes. Mind is not direct in my experience, but so is with the eye.

29.03.2016 21:47

Updesh
I have no experience of the eye but there is vision.

29.03.2016 21:48

Christiane
Very good, the example with the eye!
Mind is a sense as well as defined in Buddhism. In the Western world it is not considered a sense.
Is the content of thought real?

29.03.2016 22:11

Updesh
It doesn't matter what is defined in Buddhism. I have no experience of Buddhism.
Yes. If mind is a sense, then content of thought is real.


________________________________________________________________
30.03.2016 08:44

Christiane
Think of a bottle of water. Can you drink this water? Is the content of thought real?

30.03.2016 08:49

Updesh
Yes it is real. The nature of reality it holds is not same as the bottle of water which is out these. This water bottle is consumed in a different way.
Yes it is real. The nature of reality it holds is not same as the bottle of water which is out there. This water bottle is consumed in a different way.
This morning a new knowledge has come to me. Is it not non sense to say that mind is localised in head. Science always does this kind of compartmentalisation and bifurcation. I feel that entire body is mind.

30.03.2016 08:53

Christiane
Say you are lost in the desert. You are dying of thirst. I offer you a picture of a bottle of water (mental image) and a bottle of water. What would you take?
Great that we are both online „smile“-Emoticon

30.03.2016 08:54

Updesh
That example doesn't contradict my view.
The two realities mentioned in the example have different nature. Also, they are sensed by different sense organs. But is it not non sense to compartmentalise sense organs. Are they not the same?

30.03.2016 08:56

Updesh

30.03.2016 08:56

Christiane
Ok, the way I use reality is: Real is what doesn't disappear when you don't think of it or don't believe in it.


31.03.2016 13:19

Updesh
There are so many beliefs. The very association of 'A' with a sound is a belief. So from first day in school we are being taught beliefs. What do you say?


31.03.2016 13:23

Christiane
It is for communication purposes. A child experiences something. it has no words for it. And then the parent says: A wave, look, this is a wave. This is how labels are put on experiences. The labels are never the experiences themselves.


31.03.2016 14:58

Updesh
Why do parents call it a Wave?


31.03.2016 16:28

Christiane
They learnt it from their parents. I learnt a different word for it: Welle.


31.03.2016 16:28

Updesh
Hi!!
From where did parent's parents learn that word?
Oh!! Welle!!


31.03.2016 16:30

Updesh


31.03.2016 16:30

Christiane
Well, where did parents learn it from.
?


31.03.2016 16:34

Updesh
That nomenclature runs for Catholicism and Christianity.
Here in Indian Buddhism, both are referred to as monks.


31.03.2016 16:35

Christiane
Interesting. I know Buddhist monks and nuns „smile“-Emoticon
Here and in England and Thailand they are called that way. Isn't it interesting how different labels mean the same?


31.03.2016 16:37

Updesh
By saying this you are challenging the meaning of the word meaning


31.03.2016 16:38

Christiane
„grin“-Emoticon
It is just a label. If you call your trousers horseshoes, does it mean they are horeshoes? They still are trousers. Children like to play that game, calling things another name.


31.03.2016 16:43

Updesh
Language is man made. Most of the beliefs of human psyche are man made. But after all one has to live in this human society. Is there even a small society where people who have given up all beliefs live together in some form of communism? I would love to be there.


31.03.2016 16:45

Christiane
„smile“-Emoticon. We have online groups from Liberation Unleashed where people who saw that the I is an illusion talk to each other and some also meet in real life and some are partners. Would like to join?


31.03.2016 16:45

Updesh
Yes. But only if its not strictly online!!


31.03.2016 16:46

Christiane
There are people from India as well. You can meet them. „smile“-Emoticon.
Even from Pakistan


31.03.2016 16:46

Updesh
I India is huge
India is huge
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Re: Updessh and Christiane

Postby Ghata » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:44 pm

Christiane
Let's see where you stand with the I or self. Please answer all questions and quote the number.***1. Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’? 2. Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens? 3. Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions? 4. Or a self who ‘does the thinking’? ***Much love, Christiane

01.04.2016 15:45

Updesh
1,2,3,4. No. Not exactly.
My friend wanted to be in Diplomacy and she made it. Was she not the doer? Did that happen on its own?
Was he destined to be in Diplomacy. Was it a necessity for life to get her selected irrespective of whether she puts in those efforts or not?
Was she destined to be in Diplomacy. Was it a necessity for life to get her selected irrespective of whether she puts in those efforts or not?

01.04.2016 16:40

Christiane
Find out „smile“-Emoticon

01.04.2016 16:41

Updesh
Go ahead

01.04.2016 16:41

Christiane
Regarding your answers: "1,2,3,4. No. Not exactly." - What does "Not exactly" mean?

01.04.2016 16:42

Updesh
Can only say that there is no 'I' in my experience.
But can't say this for experience of others. Maybe someone else has such an experience
Are you there?

01.04.2016 16:44

Christiane
Yes, I am



01.04.2016 16:44

Updesh
Please tell me all that you have got.


01.04.2016 16:45

Christiane
What was the I you believed in before?


01.04.2016 16:46

Updesh
It was a cultural 'I'. It was given to me by language and society. It was an unanalysed concept. On analysis it was found that it was a mental construction.
There!?


01.04.2016 16:49

Christiane
Yes „smile“-Emoticon
Could there be a real I that other people experience?


01.04.2016 16:51

Updesh
That is not part of my experience.
At most I can infer that they too won't be having such an experience. But then there is a risk of illicit generalisation in such an inference.
There?


01.04.2016 16:54

Christiane
That is right.
When did you realise that there is no real I?


01.04.2016 16:55

Updesh
At the beach other day


01.04.2016 16:55

Christiane
Describe it fully how it happened. „smile“-Emoticon


01.04.2016 16:55



01.04.2016 16:58

Updesh
I just started searching the experiencer but couldn't find it anywhere in my consciousness.


01.04.2016 16:59

Christiane
Ok. And then.


01.04.2016 17:00

Updesh
I din't understand that. Do you mean to say that voice call is not possible?


01.04.2016 17:00

Christiane
Yes, voice call is technically not possible for me


01.04.2016 17:00

Updesh
And then it felt void.
Dismemberment.
Disgorgement of the'I'


01.04.2016 17:01

Christiane
Ok. How did that feel?


01.04.2016 17:02

Updesh
That felt spooky
Psychologically, it is said that in such situations one feels frightened as the mind feels that it is loosing control
There?


01.04.2016 17:03

Christiane
Yes, listening
Were you afraid?


01.04.2016 17:04

Updesh
Yes. Goosebumbs


01.04.2016 17:04

Christiane
Go ahead. What happened then?
Fear is the butler opening the door to new understanding.


01.04.2016 17:05

Updesh
Yes. Agreed. I have always grown on the other side of fear.
Then you asked me to check out that who is looking out of my eyes
Then a man came asking for alms
There?


01.04.2016 17:07

Christiane
yes, go ahead


01.04.2016 17:08

Updesh
I looked I looked straight into him to find his 'I'
There?


01.04.2016 17:09

Christiane
I stay here, Updesh


01.04.2016 17:09

Updesh
Haha


01.04.2016 17:09

Christiane
„smile“-Emoticon


01.04.2016 17:09

Updesh
You smile too often. I like that. I am a good flatterer. I like that.


01.04.2016 17:10

Christiane
Haha. Go ahead, you looked at the man asking for alms to find the I in him


01.04.2016 17:10

Updesh
Yes.


01.04.2016 17:11

Christiane
What did you see?


01.04.2016 17:11

Updesh
His face, eyes etc. I felt gratitude from him.


01.04.2016 17:11

Christiane
„heart“-Emoticon


01.04.2016 17:12

Updesh

Haha.
How do you do that!!
Yippie. I too can do it.


01.04.2016 17:13

Christiane
You had just gained a most important insight. Now the man came asking for alms like a monk so you could also give something to somebody else.
How does life feel now? What changed?


01.04.2016 17:14

Updesh
What does that mean. Tell me more.


01.04.2016 17:15

Christiane
Nothing whatsoever happens by chance. It was coincidence that in that very moment somebody came asking for alms and you gave him food. Did something change in your life? How does life feel now?


01.04.2016 17:16

Updesh
Are coincidence and chance different in meaning?


01.04.2016 17:16

Christiane
Sorry, I used the wrong word.
Synchronicity is the right word. It was synchronicity that this man came in just in this moment.


01.04.2016 17:19

Updesh
Ok. Yes. These things keep happening to me. Such people, things, events etc keep happening and I am always wondering that how could this be chance.


01.04.2016 17:19

Christiane
This is life happening. Nothing is by chance.
Tell me, how does life feel now? Did anything change?


01.04.2016 17:21

Updesh
I am utterly confused. I want to meditate. Be stable and minimal, away from cultural world.
I like to just remain seated with spine erect, closed eyes, observing breath. That is blissfull ease


01.04.2016 17:23

Christiane
Yes.


01.04.2016 17:23

Updesh
I don't like to speak much
Just minimum.
But I have a bank debt. So can't leave culture. Can't leave brother alone to debt.


01.04.2016 17:24

Christiane
ok


01.04.2016 17:25

Updesh
So feels like servicing the debt asap and then taking to ease.
So feels like servicing the debt as soon as possible and then taking to meditative ease.


01.04.2016 17:26

Christiane
Yes, you can feel very drawn to silence after seeing that the I is not there. This will change again. Take it easy these days and sleep enough.
It takes a bit to adjust to that, the whole body has to adjust to the new informations.


01.04.2016 17:28

01.04.2016 17:29

Christiane
When a choice is made, how does that happen from your experience in the last days?


01.04.2016 17:30

Updesh
I haven't made much choices recently.


01.04.2016 17:30

Christiane
Choices like what to wear, what to eat...


01.04.2016 17:31

Updesh
I keep very few clothes. Eating too is from canteen. I have very few preferences.
Haha


01.04.2016 17:31

Christiane
ok


01.04.2016 17:31

Updesh
Yes. I know what you are trying to ask.


01.04.2016 17:32

Christiane
?


01.04.2016 17:32

Updesh
Choices just happen.
I don't know how they happen.


01.04.2016 17:32

Christiane
Good answer „smile“-Emoticon

How about free will, intention?


01.04.2016 17:34

Updesh
Stuck!! I don't know.


01.04.2016 17:34

Christiane
Good answer again.
Who could exert free will?


01.04.2016 17:35

Updesh
Intellectually I can answer this question. But absence of free will is not in my experience.
If I decide to take water now, I can take it.


01.04.2016 17:36

Christiane
Watch how that happens. Describe it. Did an I think: I want to have water now.


01.04.2016 17:39

Updesh
Please excuse for few minutes. Urgent.


01.04.2016 17:39

Christiane
ok


01.04.2016 17:45

Updesh
Back


01.04.2016 17:46

Christiane


01.04.2016 17:46

Christiane
Could you go back to the last question?


01.04.2016 17:47

Updesh
If I think to take water now, I can take it.
But how how does that thought happen?


01.04.2016 17:48

Christiane
Right. Do YOU think?


01.04.2016 17:48

Updesh
Because tissues go dry. Biology says like that.


01.04.2016 17:48

Christiane
Like a kind of body reflex?
What about wanting to become a diplomat?


01.04.2016 17:50

Updesh
There must be some need of the body there in being a Diplomat
There may be some need of the body there in being a Diplomat
Do you mean to say that?


01.04.2016 17:51

Christiane
Is a need in the bodyexperienced to become a diplomat?


01.04.2016 17:54

Updesh
Maybe I don't like the hot weather here.
Haha


01.04.2016 17:55

Christiane
Look into it. What is it that wants you to become a high rank diplomat?


01.04.2016 18:01

Christiane
Still there?


01.04.2016 18:20

Christiane
You seem to be gone. Please look into such a complex choice as becoming a diplomat. How does that happen?[/color
]
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

User avatar
Ghata
Posts: 1810
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:13 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Updessh and Christiane

Postby Ghata » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:57 pm

How about free will, intention?



01.04.2016 17:35

Updesh
Intellectually I can answer this question. But absence of free will is not in my experience.
If I decide to take water now, I can take it.


01.04.2016 17:36

Christiane
Watch how that happens. Describe it. Did an I think: I want to have water now.


01.04.2016 17:39

Updesh
Please excuse for few minutes. Urgent.


01.04.2016 17:39

Christiane
ok


01.04.2016 17:45

Updesh
Back


01.04.2016 17:46

Christiane


01.04.2016 17:46

Christiane
Could you go back to the last question?


01.04.2016 17:47

Updesh
If I think to take water now, I can take it.
But how how does that thought happen?


01.04.2016 17:48

Christiane
Right. Do YOU think?


01.04.2016 17:48

Updesh
Because tissues go dry. Biology says like that.


01.04.2016 17:48

Christiane
Like a kind of body reflex?
What about wanting to become a diplomat?


01.04.2016 17:50

Updesh
There must be some need of the body there in being a Diplomat
There may be some need of the body there in being a Diplomat
Do you mean to say that?


01.04.2016 17:51

Christiane
Is a need in the bodyexperienced to become a diplomat?


01.04.2016 17:54

Updesh
Maybe I don't like the hot weather here.
Haha


01.04.2016 17:55

Christiane
Look into it. What is it that wants you to become a high rank diplomat?


01.04.2016 18:01

Christiane
Still there?


01.04.2016 18:20

Christiane
You seem to be gone. Please look into such a complex choice as becoming a diplomat. How does that happen?

02.04.2016 09:05

Updesh
One morning while riding my bike in Delhi I entered the diplomatic enclave. There I saw many embassies. The area was very green and spacious. People from different countries had gathered in different groups in various parks. I loved all that I saw. It was only after that I researched more about diplomacy and gained more liking for it.


02.04.2016 09:07

Christiane
Good. Something was seen, pleasant sensations arose and thoughts started to look for a way to have more pleasant sensations and found it.


02.04.2016 09:07

Updesh
Ok


02.04.2016 09:08

Christiane
So would you say it was free will to become a diplomat
?


02.04.2016 09:09

Updesh
I understand freewill as freedom to make a choice from among a given set of viable options. In that sense free will was there.


02.04.2016 09:10

Christiane
Was there an I exerting free will?


02.04.2016 09:10

Updesh
Choice for diplomacy was made.
As there were other options as well like police officer, revenue administrator etc


02.04.2016 09:12

Christiane
Did anybody choose between the options?


02.04.2016 09:13

Updesh
Whatever was felt most pleasant was chosen


02.04.2016 09:14

Christiane
Did YOU choose?


02.04.2016 09:16

Updesh
Is 'I' a notional subject created by the mind to act as a single point of contact for all external agents. Is it like President in a Parliamentary Democracy where the real powers are with the council of ministers which can be compared to thoughts?


02.04.2016 09:16

Christiane
You tell me „smile“-Emoticon


02.04.2016 09:16

Updesh
Haha


02.04.2016 09:17

Christiane
I like the example

02.04.2016 14:01

Christiane
Did you have time to look into thoughts?


02.04.2016 14:02

Updesh
Yes


02.04.2016 14:02

Christiane
Great! What did you find out? Where do thoughts come from and go to?


02.04.2016 14:03

Updesh
They came from Some other thought


02.04.2016 14:03

Christiane
Explain how that looked like.
Did a thought think another thought?


02.04.2016 14:05

Updesh
Yes. They were following each other.
And the basis was in the body experience i.e. first thought was based on a body sensation.


02.04.2016 14:07

Christiane
Thoughts were following each other. Does that mean they think each other? Please have another look now and say what can be directly experienced without conclusion. Where do thoughts come from and where do the go to?


02.04.2016 14:09

Updesh
I don't know where they come from and where they go. But certain thoughts come for which conditions are favorable


02.04.2016 14:10

Christiane
Ok. It cannot be said where they come from and go to. Good
With conditions being favorable for special thoughts you mean...


02.04.2016 14:11

Updesh
For example, when body is uncomfortable, unpleasant thoughts come.


02.04.2016 14:11

Christiane
Right
Can you know what thought will come next and can you then decide not to think it?
If you don't like it?


02.04.2016 14:12

Updesh
No


02.04.2016 14:13

Christiane
„like“-Emoticon


02.04.2016 14:13

Updesh


02.04.2016 14:13

Christiane
Is a thought with the content "I" different to other thoughts? Can it think other thoughts or do anything else?


02.04.2016 14:16

Updesh
I is not the content. I is a label.


02.04.2016 14:17

Christiane
Yes, right.
I is a label. It appears as a content of thought. The content is never real, it might refer to something real, like wave
Are I-thoughts in any way different to other thoughts?


02.04.2016 14:19

Updesh
Don't know
Hey Christiane. Can I catch up in a while. I want to pay all attention to this conversation as it is very important for me.


Christiane
Please look into the questions about thoughts and tell me what you found.


03.04.2016 09:59

Updesh
I founds thoughts keep happening. It is an illusion to think that they are in my control .


03.04.2016 10:01

Christiane


03.04.2016 10:02

Updesh
Mind is like a super fertile ground. Even a slight thought acts as a seed for it. Mind has an ability to construct a palace of thoughts and beliefs.


03.04.2016 10:02

Updesh


03.04.2016 10:02

Updesh
There?


03.04.2016 10:02

Christiane
yep


03.04.2016 10:03

Updesh
Do you think that mind is a highly fertile ground of thoughts?


03.04.2016 10:03

Christiane
what does "mind" look like in direct experience?


03.04.2016 10:03

Updesh
A bundle of thoughts
A factory of thoughts
A reservoir of thoughts.


03.04.2016 10:04

Christiane
Are the thoughts bundled together and then form mind. Can you actually see it? See the factory producing thoughts? Ar the reservoir for thoughts? Only what you can actually experience is true, every thing else ist just another thought - albeiit very poetic. „smile“-Emoticon


03.04.2016 10:05

Updesh
Ok. In that case even mind is a thought
No I can't see the mind directly
Mind is not in my direct experience.

Christiane
The factory or the reservoir?


03.04.2016 10:09

Updesh
No I cant see any


03.04.2016 10:09

Christiane
Where do thoughts come from and go to?


03.04.2016 10:09

Updesh
I don't know
I don't know (idk)


03.04.2016 10:10

Christiane
Have a look. Watch one thought after the other arise...where do the come from and where do they go to?


03.04.2016 10:11

Updesh
I don't know. Maybe we have trained the mind to bring a certain thought after some other particular thought.
But idk that how do thoughts come and go


03.04.2016 10:12

Christiane
Good. Can you know which thought will be next, and if you don't like it, stop it from coming?


03.04.2016 10:12

Updesh
No
I can only fix the probability of the next thought. But I think that even this probability is based on past training and beleifs.


03.04.2016 10:14

Christiane
What do you mean with fixing the probability?


03.04.2016 10:15

Updesh
For example, entire mathematics is apriori
It is a creation of mind


03.04.2016 10:15

Christiane
Yes, indeed. Beautiful example !
How do you fix the probability of thought, do you have an example?
of special thoughts arising


03.04.2016 10:27

Updesh
5 minutes
Lunch
Friends waiting


03.04.2016 10:28

Christiane
Go have lunch with your friends and enjoy „smile“-Emoticon
3. April


03.04.2016 15:03

Updesh
Hi there


03.04.2016 15:04

Christiane
Yes, but I will leave in a minute


03.04.2016 15:04

Updesh
„smile“-Emoticon
: )
Ok.
I wanted to give an example
Where probability is fixed


03.04.2016 15:05

Christiane
ok


03.04.2016 15:06

Updesh
For example, if an image is presented to me which reads....... '2 + 2', then the thought of 4 coming to mind is highly probable.
Because mind has been trained like that

Christiane
Yes, there are conditionings in place. A special thought will arise when reading 2x2.
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Ghata
Posts: 1810
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Re: Updessh and Christiane

Postby Ghata » Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:14 pm

Christiane
I'd like to go back to thoughts. have a look, are I thought different to other thoughts? Can they do anything, for exampe think other thoughts? - Warning: I wiill have to leave in half an hour. I am travelling today.


04.04.2016 08:39

Updesh
Ok.
I thought appears much more real than many other thoughts. It is a label for me. It cuts me out as a separate entity as different from rest of the world. It identifies me to myself.


04.04.2016 08:42

Christiane
ok


04.04.2016 08:43

Updesh
I don't think that 'I think' is a correct statement. As I doesn't actually think.
Thinking is happening even without I


04.04.2016 08:43

Christiane
Yes, right. Have a look. Can a thinker be found thinking thoughts?


04.04.2016 08:44

Updesh
It is the same thinker whom I have always called I
It is the same thinker whom I have always called 'I'
But actually I have no control over thoughts.


04.04.2016 08:45

Christiane
What does the thinker look like?


04.04.2016 08:45

Updesh
My head
It looks like my head


04.04.2016 08:46

Christiane
What is the direct experience of "my head"?


04.04.2016 08:46

Updesh
It is an inference. There is no direct experience
Because there is thought, so there must be a thinker. This is an inference.


04.04.2016 08:47

Christiane
Right. Can a thinker be found?


04.04.2016 08:47

Updesh
No

Christiane
Let's go back to free will. Is there free will and how does iit work?


04.04.2016 08:49

Updesh
There is no free will.
Because we don't know that how thoughts arise, so we think that there is free will. We assume I as the thinker who is in control of thinking


04.04.2016 10:55

Updesh
Example of how one thought leads to another: I had lunch at office. After lunch I thought of going out of office for a while. This thought of 'going out of office' lead to another thought of 'basement'. This is because basement has the property of being out of office. The thought of basement lead to another thought in form of memory of a tea seller who sells tasteful tea there.


04.04.2016 10:56

Updesh
So thoughts appear to be moving in a train. One calling the next
What do you think about this?
4. April


04.04.2016 16:37

Christiane
Can a connection be seen directly between thoughts? Who/what can choose what to do in life?
4. April


04.04.2016 19:40

Updesh
No. Never a connection can be seen. Connection is not a matter of experience. It is not a tangible thing. It is mental construct. Mind sees a particular thought following the other in a repeated/habitual manner. So it starts inferring the next thought based on past experience.


04.04.2016 19:41

Updesh
Even what I have said above can't be actually said. At best we can adopt silence regarding such questions.
There?


04.04.2016 19:41

Christiane
yes, I'll be with you in a minute

Updesh
How do decisions happen?
This is a very important question for me
There?

06.04.2016 11:08

• 06.04.2016 11:50

• Christiane
• Yes. Decisions are a very important question.
• Let's look into that.
• Hold one hand palm facing up. Then flip the hand over, palm down and repeat. Now watch like an eagle. Where is the decision point when the decision is made to flip the hand and is immediately acted upon. Can you find it?


• 06.04.2016 12:17

• Updesh
• Decision is originating from somewhere around the head
• Then the hand is actually flipped
• There?


• 06.04.2016 12:55

• Updesh
• There


• 06.04.2016 14:04

• Christiane
• Look directly. Can you find the decision? Where exactly does it come from? How does it look like? And how does it make the hand flip over?


• 06.04.2016 14:05

• Updesh
• Decision is a thought
• There?


• 06.04.2016 14:05

• Christiane
• Yes
• I am here
• Decision is a thought. Can a thought do anything?


• 06.04.2016 14:06

• Updesh
• Yes. Thought can make body do things


• 06.04.2016 14:06

• Christiane
• Wow. Describe exactly how that works. Only talk about what you can actually experience


• 06.04.2016 14:07

• Updesh
• Like it is happening here. Is this a beleif?


• 06.04.2016 14:07

• Christiane
• What is happening there? Have a look yourself: Can a thought do anything on it's own


• 06.04.2016 14:08

• Updesh
• Not on its own. But with the help of body


• 06.04.2016 14:09

• Christiane
• How ?
• (Only what you can really experience!)


• 06.04.2016 14:11

• Updesh
• If there is no thought of flipping the hand, then hand is not flipped


• 06.04.2016 14:11

• Christiane
• Yes


• 06.04.2016 14:11

• Updesh
• If there is a thought of flipping the hand, then hand is flipped


• 06.04.2016 14:11

• Christiane
• Did you do the exercise?


• 06.04.2016 14:12

• Updesh
• Yes


• 06.04.2016 14:13

• Christiane
• Was there an immediate connection of the thought and then the hand flipped. Maybe do in again. Don't actively think, just watch.


• 06.04.2016 14:14

• Updesh
• I don't know.
• Sometimes hand is flipped without thought of flipping as well


• 06.04.2016 14:15

• Christiane
• Right.

04.04.2016 19:42

10.04.2016 19:30

• Christiane
• The real watershed for you seems to be looking into your plans for life


• 10.04.2016 19:30

• Updesh
• Ok


• 10.04.2016 19:30

• Christiane
• What are these plans for life, your endavours, your ambitions in direct experience?


• 10.04.2016 19:31

• Updesh
• Nothing. Just thoughts.


• 10.04.2016 19:32

• Christiane
• Wow! And now?


• 10.04.2016 19:32

• Updesh
• Now?


• 10.04.2016 19:33

• Christiane
• what about you wanting to become a high rank diplomat? Or something else?


• 10.04.2016 19:33

• Updesh
• Thought


• 10.04.2016 19:33

• Christiane
• Who is going to achieve this?


• 10.04.2016 19:33

• Updesh
• No one


• 10.04.2016 19:33

• Christiane
• Can still something be achieved?


• 10.04.2016 19:34

• Updesh
• I don't know. Then how do some people achieve? How does it happen to them?
• Do you want to say that it was determined for them?


10.04.2016 19:34

Updesh
I don't know. Then how do some people achieve? How does it happen to them?
Do you want to say that it was determined for them?

10.04.2016 19:36

Christiane
Is there a way to know whether it was determined?

10.04.2016 19:36

Updesh
No

10.04.2016 19:37

Christiane
Did you ever have an 'I' ?

10.04.2016 19:37

Updesh
No

10.04.2016 19:37

Christiane
Did you achieve something?

10.04.2016 19:38

Updesh
I don't know

10.04.2016 19:39

Christiane
„smile“-Emoticon. Sure you did. You achieved for example to work in the position you do right now, even if it is not what you wanted.

10.04.2016 19:39

Updesh
Yes
But no.
There are many aspects of it that I could not control

10.04.2016 19:42

Christiane
Right.
Next questions: What are you responsible for?

10.04.2016 19:43

Updesh
Nothing

10.04.2016 19:43

Christiane
???
Your brother, your debts?

10.04.2016 19:44

Updesh
Yes
But that is cultural
10.04.2016 19:49

Updesh
I don't know what will happen of all this.
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de


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