What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
i have read some of the threads and downloaded the book which created more interest - i am at the end the end of a very long search which started 30yrs ago - i have listned to some you tube clips with elena recently and i need to really see this
What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
i am looking finally for complete clarity about whether i have seen through things enough or whether there is more to clear up - your way of oointing seems so direct that if there is something i have missed i want the help for me to see
What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
a long and very intense search lasting 30 yrs which has at times nearly destroyed me - it has been like an itch that i cant quite scratch - in my 20s i was walking in woods and i disappeared - at that time i had no context for this and it threw my world upside down and started a search to find out what had happened
i got into yoga and taught it and ran retreats for many years but always a discontent that i still couldn't find home my searching took on other forms all over the place including some shamanic work but always the threads i followed ended in disappointment and finally dispair
( apologies for underlining it wont switch off )
i have attended tony parsons meetings and there is a complete resonance
but frustration again
about 5 months ago i rang someone i had heard speak on conscious t v called David bingham and he helped point me back to true nature - it took a few mins and after that i thought home was found and searching had stoped completely - however it seems to have re instated itself almost frantically
please can you help me
How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11
i must see clearly
Re: i must see clearly
Hi there,
I'm pleased to meet you! My name is Steve and I am happy to guide you to seeing through the illusion of the separate self. Shall I call you Sam, or something else?
It's like we're going for a walk. I'll point at things and ask questions, and you tell me what you see. If you are happy for me to guide you, then we can proceed.
I had a long search too, so I feel your frustration.
Here's my first question. What emotional reaction do you have to the following statement?
There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life - no doer of actions, no maker of decisions, no "entity" there at all - nothing, nada, zip; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement.
Please tell me everything that comes up for you.
Steve
I'm pleased to meet you! My name is Steve and I am happy to guide you to seeing through the illusion of the separate self. Shall I call you Sam, or something else?
It's like we're going for a walk. I'll point at things and ask questions, and you tell me what you see. If you are happy for me to guide you, then we can proceed.
I had a long search too, so I feel your frustration.
Here's my first question. What emotional reaction do you have to the following statement?
There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life - no doer of actions, no maker of decisions, no "entity" there at all - nothing, nada, zip; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement.
Please tell me everything that comes up for you.
Steve
Re: i must see clearly
Hi steve
thank you for being my guide for this
in response I have had a no of things come up - firstly a feeling of anxiety quite intense sensations in the body - that has surprised me as I thought I had already seen that no one ran the show - this body is not likeing the thought of losing the self - also some doubts about the process which are arising as thoughts - - there seems to be too some frustration behind the anxiety - the fear though is the biggest
thank you for being my guide for this
in response I have had a no of things come up - firstly a feeling of anxiety quite intense sensations in the body - that has surprised me as I thought I had already seen that no one ran the show - this body is not likeing the thought of losing the self - also some doubts about the process which are arising as thoughts - - there seems to be too some frustration behind the anxiety - the fear though is the biggest
Re: i must see clearly
by the way calling me sam is fine
Re: i must see clearly
Hi Sam,
Fear, doubt and frustration are all very common in this process.
Fear/anxiety: First of all, tell the body that you are not going to lose the self or anything else. There is no self to lose. The only thing you can lose is a belief.
When you experience fear, the thing to do is to really feel it, focussing particularly on the bodily sensation. Don't push it away, but welcome it and sit with it. Fear is a protection mechanism. So, thank your fear for protecting you and ask it what is behind the fear. What is it protecting you from?
Doubt: we can deal with that later unless it's troublesome. Frustration: Well, the reasons for that are obvious.
You said that you have had two experiences of "no self". One in your 20s and one 5 months ago. I want you to consider this: What we're basically trying to do here is to give you ways of checking whether there is a self or not. To teach a man to fish, as the saying goes. The idea is that you can use these any time. It's reasonable to expect changes of some sort in your experience, and it's different for everyone. So I can't say "you might experience this or that" because it's likely not to be true for you.
It's very important to note that you may not recapture the experiences you had in the past. We are aiming for a deeper understanding of the nature of your reality. What we're not aiming for is any particular mental/experiential state. States by their nature come and go. You will continue to have bad days. So, it's very important to keep an open mind, because if you're expecting certain things and they don't occur, you might miss something important.
So let's put on our safari suits and look for the "I" that disappeared one day 30 years ago. How do you experience this "I"? Does it have a physical location, a shape, a size, a colour, certain qualities? Are certain feelings commonly associated with it? Is it experienced at all times or does it come and go?
Steve
Fear, doubt and frustration are all very common in this process.
Fear/anxiety: First of all, tell the body that you are not going to lose the self or anything else. There is no self to lose. The only thing you can lose is a belief.
When you experience fear, the thing to do is to really feel it, focussing particularly on the bodily sensation. Don't push it away, but welcome it and sit with it. Fear is a protection mechanism. So, thank your fear for protecting you and ask it what is behind the fear. What is it protecting you from?
Doubt: we can deal with that later unless it's troublesome. Frustration: Well, the reasons for that are obvious.
You said that you have had two experiences of "no self". One in your 20s and one 5 months ago. I want you to consider this: What we're basically trying to do here is to give you ways of checking whether there is a self or not. To teach a man to fish, as the saying goes. The idea is that you can use these any time. It's reasonable to expect changes of some sort in your experience, and it's different for everyone. So I can't say "you might experience this or that" because it's likely not to be true for you.
It's very important to note that you may not recapture the experiences you had in the past. We are aiming for a deeper understanding of the nature of your reality. What we're not aiming for is any particular mental/experiential state. States by their nature come and go. You will continue to have bad days. So, it's very important to keep an open mind, because if you're expecting certain things and they don't occur, you might miss something important.
So let's put on our safari suits and look for the "I" that disappeared one day 30 years ago. How do you experience this "I"? Does it have a physical location, a shape, a size, a colour, certain qualities? Are certain feelings commonly associated with it? Is it experienced at all times or does it come and go?
Steve
Re: i must see clearly
hi Steve
before I answer your question about the I I will be honest about my reaction to your mail - I read it last night and there was intense mind games going on - oh this is not the guide I wanted - how come he is telling me to sit with fear - I have done this for 30 yrs and look where it has got me plus a whole bunch of other stuff so I went to bed and left it
I had a night of intense dreaming about losing my way and not feeling I can find home etc etc and a deep anxiety about that
this morning I just had to sit until big emotional responses in the body had calmed down - something I would probably label as deep sadness
anyway I am re reading the text again - thank you for this - I will try to put aside what I think was realised 5 months ago -actually it was a non experience of true nature just instant recognition - experience came after
something I noticed very clearly after re reading was that I still have been trying to get rid of things i.e experience - sensations and the sense of self assuming still it is a something not a no thing - that is really helpful
how I experience the "I" seems a bit mysterious - definitely as some tension in the body like it is located there - it feels more the sense of "I" than an actual thing - feelings of tension seem to be the most obvious a sense of something pushing and an unease that feels still body located
feelings associated well unease - often as the observer of situations kind of outside things sometimes
this comes and goes it doesn't go often - but gardening or painting or watching a good movie it isn't often there
there is usually a sense of me and other in relation to other people
well hope this is a good start
thank you Steve
before I answer your question about the I I will be honest about my reaction to your mail - I read it last night and there was intense mind games going on - oh this is not the guide I wanted - how come he is telling me to sit with fear - I have done this for 30 yrs and look where it has got me plus a whole bunch of other stuff so I went to bed and left it
I had a night of intense dreaming about losing my way and not feeling I can find home etc etc and a deep anxiety about that
this morning I just had to sit until big emotional responses in the body had calmed down - something I would probably label as deep sadness
anyway I am re reading the text again - thank you for this - I will try to put aside what I think was realised 5 months ago -actually it was a non experience of true nature just instant recognition - experience came after
something I noticed very clearly after re reading was that I still have been trying to get rid of things i.e experience - sensations and the sense of self assuming still it is a something not a no thing - that is really helpful
how I experience the "I" seems a bit mysterious - definitely as some tension in the body like it is located there - it feels more the sense of "I" than an actual thing - feelings of tension seem to be the most obvious a sense of something pushing and an unease that feels still body located
feelings associated well unease - often as the observer of situations kind of outside things sometimes
this comes and goes it doesn't go often - but gardening or painting or watching a good movie it isn't often there
there is usually a sense of me and other in relation to other people
well hope this is a good start
thank you Steve
Re: i must see clearly
Hi Sam,
Great work!
On the subject of the guide - if I am ever not doing my job, feel free to ask for another guide any time. Guides have different styles and personalities, and there can be a mismatch.
We'll look at fear on an ongoing basis, so please tell me how you feel as we go along. This is important because fear can be a barrier to this process. The specific method we use here is to focus on the bodily sensation and to set the thoughts aside, so keep that in mind.
Is there a specific part of the body where this tension is felt?
You said this might be a sense of "I" rather than an actual thing. What we want to do is to take a really good look and to find out which of those two it is. At LU our favourite word is "look". If you don't know where your keys are, what do you do? You look for them. The looking that I want you to do is exactly the same kind of straightforward looking as this. The only difference is that it is turned inwards instead of outwards, and we're generally not accustomed to doing that. So it will be a little unfamiliar at first, but it isn't difficult once you get the hang of it.
This "I" sense is an experience like any other. Our experiences can be broken down into categories: 1. physical senses (sight, sound, touch, taste, smell), 2. bodily sensations, and 3. thoughts.
So, can you break the experience of your sense of "I" down into these categories? This is the sense that you said is normally hanging around except when you're gardening, etc, so it shouldn't be hard to find. You said it's mysterious, so we want to make it less mysterious.
And for bonus points: The list above is not necessarily exhaustive. Can you see anything else in your sense of "I" that doesn't fit into those categories?
Steve
Great work!
It's really good that you're being honest. The answers you give are for yourself, so there are no wrong answers and there's no judgement. I just need to know your answers so I know where to point you next. Your honesty really will help get this job done. (I have a very goal oriented personality. :) )before I answer your question about the I I will be honest about my reaction to your mail - I read it last night and there was intense mind games going on - oh this is not the guide I wanted - how come he is telling me to sit with fear - I have done this for 30 yrs and look where it has got me plus a whole bunch of other stuff so I went to bed and left it.
On the subject of the guide - if I am ever not doing my job, feel free to ask for another guide any time. Guides have different styles and personalities, and there can be a mismatch.
We'll look at fear on an ongoing basis, so please tell me how you feel as we go along. This is important because fear can be a barrier to this process. The specific method we use here is to focus on the bodily sensation and to set the thoughts aside, so keep that in mind.
I had that during my guiding too, and in retrospect its probably would have been better to be more patient with myself. But, it worked, and that's what counts. The process we use here is simple and it generally works.I had a night of intense dreaming about losing my way and not feeling I can find home etc etc and a deep anxiety about that
In our experience there are all these phenomena - an apparent body that we're looking out the eyes of, physical objects, other people, etc - and our culture gives us a theory called "self" that we use to explain it all. So that's what self is - a theory - a mental construct. But telling you this is not going to get you there. You need to see it for yourself.something I noticed very clearly after re reading was that I still have been trying to get rid of things i.e experience - sensations and the sense of self assuming still it is a something not a no thing - that is really helpful
Yes, this is a great start! I've noted the other things you said but I'll focus on this now and come back to the other things.how I experience the "I" seems a bit mysterious - definitely as some tension in the body like it is located there - it feels more the sense of "I" than an actual thing - feelings of tension seem to be the most obvious a sense of something pushing and an unease that feels still body located
Is there a specific part of the body where this tension is felt?
You said this might be a sense of "I" rather than an actual thing. What we want to do is to take a really good look and to find out which of those two it is. At LU our favourite word is "look". If you don't know where your keys are, what do you do? You look for them. The looking that I want you to do is exactly the same kind of straightforward looking as this. The only difference is that it is turned inwards instead of outwards, and we're generally not accustomed to doing that. So it will be a little unfamiliar at first, but it isn't difficult once you get the hang of it.
This "I" sense is an experience like any other. Our experiences can be broken down into categories: 1. physical senses (sight, sound, touch, taste, smell), 2. bodily sensations, and 3. thoughts.
So, can you break the experience of your sense of "I" down into these categories? This is the sense that you said is normally hanging around except when you're gardening, etc, so it shouldn't be hard to find. You said it's mysterious, so we want to make it less mysterious.
And for bonus points: The list above is not necessarily exhaustive. Can you see anything else in your sense of "I" that doesn't fit into those categories?
Steve
Re: i must see clearly
Hi steve
the first rely seems to have gone to the ether so here goes again
I'm not sure yet if I am on the same age as you
firstly the tension in the body is felt as a muscular contraction /experience in the centre of the body
if I was to try and break the sense of "I" down
the senses all seem to have an "I" thought attached to the experience - that I believe is me -actually there is only experiencing of seeing tasting smelling et c
bodily sensations would be experiencing muscular discomfort in different places but definately a feeling of located inside a body - actually when I look a bit more closely the body label comes after the experience
attention seems to be drawn to thoughts and believed to be a me - actually they are just words that appear from no where and all attention rests there
the first rely seems to have gone to the ether so here goes again
I'm not sure yet if I am on the same age as you
firstly the tension in the body is felt as a muscular contraction /experience in the centre of the body
if I was to try and break the sense of "I" down
the senses all seem to have an "I" thought attached to the experience - that I believe is me -actually there is only experiencing of seeing tasting smelling et c
bodily sensations would be experiencing muscular discomfort in different places but definately a feeling of located inside a body - actually when I look a bit more closely the body label comes after the experience
attention seems to be drawn to thoughts and believed to be a me - actually they are just words that appear from no where and all attention rests there
Re: i must see clearly
Hi Sam,
So there's a muscular contraction and "I" thought gets attached to it that is believed. So, what basis do you have for believing it's you? Could it be just a bodily sensation?
Take a look around the room. As you look at different things, do you notice the mind labelling things as they're seen. Notice the different kinds of thoughts that arise. Some are words, some are images, and some are more like concepts. Can you see that?
You noticed that the experience came first and the "I" label came later. Could this be a similar labelling mechanism? If you see something and your mind says "cup" does this mean that the concept of cup is the reality of the thing?
What we like to do here is to get a clear view of what's real and what's not. I've got an exercise for you that is basic bit important:
Take a piece of fruit and close your eyes. Imagine eating it as vividly as you can, with the tastes and sensations. Now really eat it. Compare the experiences. How were they different?
Now take an object such as a cup and place in front of you and tell me what your senses tell you about it without concepts. Of course you will need some concepts because you have to describe it to me in words, but use as few concepts as you can.
Steve
So there's a muscular contraction and "I" thought gets attached to it that is believed. So, what basis do you have for believing it's you? Could it be just a bodily sensation?
Take a look around the room. As you look at different things, do you notice the mind labelling things as they're seen. Notice the different kinds of thoughts that arise. Some are words, some are images, and some are more like concepts. Can you see that?
You noticed that the experience came first and the "I" label came later. Could this be a similar labelling mechanism? If you see something and your mind says "cup" does this mean that the concept of cup is the reality of the thing?
What we like to do here is to get a clear view of what's real and what's not. I've got an exercise for you that is basic bit important:
Take a piece of fruit and close your eyes. Imagine eating it as vividly as you can, with the tastes and sensations. Now really eat it. Compare the experiences. How were they different?
Now take an object such as a cup and place in front of you and tell me what your senses tell you about it without concepts. Of course you will need some concepts because you have to describe it to me in words, but use as few concepts as you can.
Steve
Re: i must see clearly
Sam,
Steve
I should get you to elaborate on that because it might turn out to be important.I'm not sure yet if I am on the same /p/age as you
Steve
Re: i must see clearly
hhmm well good point what did I mean
I have just noticed I am never in direct experience always distant somewhere am I avoiding this
I have just noticed I am never in direct experience always distant somewhere am I avoiding this
Re: i must see clearly
Sam,
Having said that, most people are trying to escape the present moment most of the time. And, avoiding this inquiry can be a "defence mechanism" of the ego, so, yes, this is possible. Only you can know if this is true for you.
Steve
Strictly speaking, if you're lost in thought you are still in direct experience, because direct experience is all there is. It's just direct experience of thought.I have just noticed I am never in direct experience always distant somewhere am I avoiding this
Having said that, most people are trying to escape the present moment most of the time. And, avoiding this inquiry can be a "defence mechanism" of the ego, so, yes, this is possible. Only you can know if this is true for you.
Steve
Re: i must see clearly
steve
ok I can see that - thought is direct experience too and that the labelling "I" gives the assumption it is personal
there is some part of the me personality that is trying too hard to "get this right "
there are still very uncomfortable sensations in the body I would add the label fear too - when I feel into that tears come - this feels the protective barrier - the tears have lots of stories attached ( please be gentle please be kind - is this safe - bla bla bla )
I can see how the emotions are just labelled with the thoughts and then personalised with another thought "I"
I took the cup exercise again and looked - without labelling it seems to be just colours and shape and patterns
sam
ok I can see that - thought is direct experience too and that the labelling "I" gives the assumption it is personal
there is some part of the me personality that is trying too hard to "get this right "
there are still very uncomfortable sensations in the body I would add the label fear too - when I feel into that tears come - this feels the protective barrier - the tears have lots of stories attached ( please be gentle please be kind - is this safe - bla bla bla )
I can see how the emotions are just labelled with the thoughts and then personalised with another thought "I"
I took the cup exercise again and looked - without labelling it seems to be just colours and shape and patterns
sam
Re: i must see clearly
Hi steve
I would like to share more observations - I was just sitting on the beach quietley and noticing
firstly all experiences that come and go - I asked well who is experiencing if there isn't a me - there just seemed to be experience but for no one hmm but the was a sense of something
Then there was noteicing that the protection of an assumed self antually was sensed as layers and layers of beliefs upon beliefs upon beliefs that just go on for ever - energetically these ideas and beliefs seem to press down on the body particularly the chest but they don't seem to be protecting a something just an idea
now I feel on shaky ground the label I would use for this feeling in the body is vulnerable
thanks steve for helping me with this
sam
I would like to share more observations - I was just sitting on the beach quietley and noticing
firstly all experiences that come and go - I asked well who is experiencing if there isn't a me - there just seemed to be experience but for no one hmm but the was a sense of something
Then there was noteicing that the protection of an assumed self antually was sensed as layers and layers of beliefs upon beliefs upon beliefs that just go on for ever - energetically these ideas and beliefs seem to press down on the body particularly the chest but they don't seem to be protecting a something just an idea
now I feel on shaky ground the label I would use for this feeling in the body is vulnerable
thanks steve for helping me with this
sam
Re: i must see clearly
Sam,
Thanks for doing the cup exercise - very nicely done. Looking to see what's really there in experience is the core of this, so a bit of practice with physical objects is helpful.
A certain amount of intensity and momentum is also helpful, so it's good if you can post at least something every day even if it's just "I'm still here". Also it's a good idea to put all your spiritual books and videos aside during this investigation. If you do this, then it makes it easier not to get distracted from an inward focus, because that's where I will keep pointing you.
Here you seem to be talking about an experiencer or observer. Let's see what's there. Here's an exercise:
Close your eyes and get really relaxed. Then open your eyes, then immediately find whether there's is a seer that is doing the seeing. What's there?
A variation of this exercise: Look at a view - go outside or look out the window. Now, while you are looking, turn your attention to the "observer" - that is, whatever it is that is looking. Have a really good look at it. Tell me what you find.
And here's something else to try: Do the same exercise but instead of looking out the window, look at the sense of self in the body. Now turn your attention to the observer. This time the question is, How many of you are there?
Steve
Thanks for doing the cup exercise - very nicely done. Looking to see what's really there in experience is the core of this, so a bit of practice with physical objects is helpful.
A certain amount of intensity and momentum is also helpful, so it's good if you can post at least something every day even if it's just "I'm still here". Also it's a good idea to put all your spiritual books and videos aside during this investigation. If you do this, then it makes it easier not to get distracted from an inward focus, because that's where I will keep pointing you.
This is great. You've already looked at the sense of self in the body, and you'll need to keep looking so you can be sure whether there is an actual entity there, or whether it is a body sensation + thought labelling.I asked well who is experiencing if there isn't a me - there just seemed to be experience but for no one hmm but the was a sense of something
Then there was noteicing...
Here you seem to be talking about an experiencer or observer. Let's see what's there. Here's an exercise:
Close your eyes and get really relaxed. Then open your eyes, then immediately find whether there's is a seer that is doing the seeing. What's there?
A variation of this exercise: Look at a view - go outside or look out the window. Now, while you are looking, turn your attention to the "observer" - that is, whatever it is that is looking. Have a really good look at it. Tell me what you find.
And here's something else to try: Do the same exercise but instead of looking out the window, look at the sense of self in the body. Now turn your attention to the observer. This time the question is, How many of you are there?
People often think there's this big Gordian knot they have to unravel, but it's actually a whole lot simpler than that. There's a single belief - that I am an entity that lives inside the body and controls it - and this belief is a sort of glue that holds the whole illusion together. If you stop believing that, then everything else loosens up and is gradually re-evaluated, usually over years. All we're concerned with here is that first step.Then there was noteicing that the protection of an assumed self antually was sensed as layers and layers of beliefs upon beliefs upon beliefs that just go on for ever - energetically these ideas and beliefs seem to press down on the body particularly the chest but they don't seem to be protecting a something just an idea
Here's a question for you: If you feel frustrated because you're trying too hard, can this be OK? If so, then be frustrated. What exactly is frustration? What is it made of?there is some part of the me personality that is trying too hard to "get this right "
If there's too much fear, then it would be good to slow down or take a break. But if that's not the case, then can the fear be OK?there are still very uncomfortable sensations in the body I would add the label fear too - when I feel into that tears come - this feels the protective barrier - the tears have lots of stories attached ( please be gentle please be kind - is this safe - bla bla bla )
You're doing really well! A question: Before emotions are labelled with thought, what are they? That is, how are they experienced in your direct experience (sight, hearing, ... bodily sensations ... other)?I can see how the emotions are just labelled with the thoughts and then personalised with another thought "I"
Steve
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