Ben's Thread

[Ben2]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I read Gateless Gatecrashers and it gave me a lot of hope. I feel the process you have developed may assist me greatly. I am here to hopefully get some guidance.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I simply want to be free from suffering. I hope to see the seperate-self for what it truly is and then have the freedom to live my life to the fullest, without all the anxiety, fear and unhappiness that's causing me to live a much less than optimal life.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have been meditating daily for nearly 10 years, and reading everything I can get my hands on regarding enlightenment theory for the past 2-3 years. For about the last year I have been really putting a lot of energy into doing up to an hour of self-inquiry every day. Half the time I'm frustrated and angry and I feel like enlightenment isn't possible for me or a real thing at all, the other time I just feel like I'm chasing my own tail around in circles.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ben,

My name is Kay and I am happy to be your guide.

Can you please confirm that you have read the following links which are the disclaimer and the article on Direct Experience.

http://liberationunleashed.com/terms/
http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/

When I receive your confirmation and that you are happy to continue, we can then get move on.

Kay xxoo

[Ben2]

Hi Kay

Nice to meet you and I look forward to working with you. Thank you kindly for giving me your time, it's a great thing that you're all doing here and any help you can give me will be much appreciated.

I can confirm that I have read both of those links and am happy to continue.

Ben

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ben,

Thank you for your appreciation and for taking the time to read the disclaimer and the article on Direct Experience. I refer to direct experience as actual experience and abbreviate it to AE. I look forward to the journey we are about to commence :)

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING THOROUGHLY. Please be aware that the ground rules are not a suggestion, they do serve a purpose in the exploration of seeing through the illusory ‘self’and you are asked to adhere to the rules.

As your guide I am here to point the way. I will ask questions and set you some exercises to help you to LOOK to see yourself that there is no separate self, and this will be the focus. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers. There are no right or wrong answers and there is nobody judging you. You can't get this wrong.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:

SOME GROUND RULES:-

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts.
Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

TECHNICAL SUPPORT

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- PLEASE LEARN to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below :
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
- The site has a habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere (word document), then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Could you please answer the 5 following questions:
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?


Kay xx

[Ben2]

Hi Kay

Thank you again in advance, everything is clear and well understood.

How will Life change?

I can only honestly guess what will happen, but I'll give it my best guess. I believe due to having seen the truth my life will gradually become easier and more peaceful. I will cling less to emotions, thoughts and problems and things will have a sense of ease and flow.

How will you change?

I can only assume that I will be more relaxed, peaceful, happy, open, free and joyful.

What will be different?

Less identification with thoughts, less anxiety and fear and worry, less time and money spent trying to reach "enlightenment" and on self development, more time to just live my life.

What is missing?

I've been searching for this truth for so long now, my intent and intensity are all there. However I have seen nothing. What's missing is the seeing of what's true regarding the self.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

I want to see the truth. I want to see my "self" for what it actually is, an illusion. I want to really see it and feel it deep down, rather than just understand it intellectually. I want it to be something that "sticks", rather than just fleeting experiences which are the only things I've experienced to date.

Much appreciated

Ben

[forgetmenot]

Good morning Ben,

Thank you for your responses. The questions were to see what expectations you have around seeing through the illusory self. I would like for you to be aware of what comes up for you ie anger, fear, disappointment, joy, sadness and so on when you read my replies. When responding to my post, just let me know what appeared.

How will Life change?

I can only honestly guess what will happen, but I'll give it my best guess. I believe due to having seen the truth my life will gradually become easier and more peaceful. I will cling less to emotions, thoughts and problems and things will have a sense of ease and flow.

There is no separate individual, and never has been a separate individual who is living a life, who has beliefs, problems or emotions.

How will you change?

I can only assume that I will be more relaxed, peaceful, happy, open, free and joyful.

“Relaxed, peaceful, happy, open, free and joyful” are concepts that are happening to no person/entity/thing and there is no separate individual who can desire change. There is no difference between 'happy', 'sad', 'peaceful', 'relaxed' and so on - they are all concepts that are being had by nobody/nothing.

What will be different?

Less identification with thoughts, less anxiety and fear and worry, less time and money spent trying to reach "enlightenment" and on self development, more time to just live my life.

There is no ‘person’ who can reach or achieve “enlightenment” or who is experiencing anxiety, fear and worry.

What is missing?

I've been searching for this truth for so long now, my intent and intensity are all there. However I have seen nothing. What's missing is the seeing of what's true regarding the self.

There is no “self” in any shape or form, whether it be a ‘myself’ or ‘the Self’. For there to be a ‘self’ in any shape or form means that there must be a subject and an object, and there is no object/subject split. There is just THIS.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

I want to see the truth. I want to see my "self" for what it actually is, an illusion. I want to really see it and feel it deep down, rather than just understand it intellectually. I want it to be something that "sticks", rather than just fleeting experiences which are the only things I've experienced to date.

The idea of ‘wanting’ something is exactly that….an idea. It needs a ‘somebody/something’ to want something and there is no someone/something. There is also no experience-er of experiences.

Kay xx

[Ben2]

Good afternoon Kay

Okay great, I'll let you know what came up in a second. I just wanted to run something by you that happened to me last night, it's very strange and I doubt it's anything significant, but I'm hoping at least it's a step in the right direction.

I was reading the book Gateless Gatecrashers for the second time and flicking around this forum, and I just couldn't stop thinking about how the self is an illusion. I got kind of obsessed with it and couldn't stop, and then suddenly I got really anxious and my heart started beating faster, and I just had this energy throughout my body. I thought about how all my stories about having an "unhappy" childhood and things like that were all not real, were just associated with this false sense of self, just stories.

From here I didn't sleep all night, and my head was just swirling with all these different emotions. It's confusing and kind of scary. I just thought it was probably due to lack of sleep, I then slept in the morning for a couple of hours and it was still doing the same thing when I woke up, as it is now. But on top of it all there is a sense of openness at the top of my head and a kind of detachment while I watch these swirling emotions. It's a bit scary actually as I've never experienced anything like this. Anyway I just thought I'd share. Are these types of experiences common for people when they are doing this work? Or is it just nothing?

So now to how I felt while reading your statements...

I would like for you to be aware of what comes up for you ie anger, fear, disappointment, joy, sadness and so on when you read my replies. When responding to my post, just let me know what appeared.

The primary emotions I experienced were sadness and fear. It's sad to think that I've put so much work and energy and waste into something that doesn't even exist. I think about my whole life and how it was built on a lie. Caring so much about something that wasn't even there in the first place. Just such a sad waste. I carry this sadness around with me a lot actually, I can kind of feel it mainly as tightness in my jaw and lips, sometimes it's expressed as "grumpiness" and sometimes sadness. It's like the "grumpiness" kind of protects the sadness in a way.

I'm also scared. Scared of what I will lose, scared of what I have to go through to get to a point where I see things clearly. Scared of what will happen to me, my body, my life, my relationships, my work.

Much appreciated

Ben

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ben,

I was reading the book Gateless Gatecrashers for the second time and flicking around this forum,

Can I ask you not to ‘flick’ around the forum please. What can happen is that it creates expectations of wanting the same seeming experience as another; or it can bring up fears about what may or may not happen which can hinder the process itself. If you could put aside all reading, youtube watching and all other modes of seeking and just focus on this exploration, I would be greatly appreciative.

There seems to be many different experiences that occur during and after this process. Fear, resistance, confusion and doubt are normal and that is why I want you to let me know when these arise for you, so that we can look at them. Detachment may or may not happen. However, this exploration is not about different forms of experience. Seeing through the illusory self is a recognition, and is not an experience of any kind, including bliss, emptiness, peace, and so on.

The primary emotions I experienced were sadness and fear. It's sad to think that I've put so much work and energy and waste into something that doesn't even exist. I think about my whole life and how it was built on a lie. Caring so much about something that wasn't even there in the first place. Just such a sad waste.

There is no separate individual who experiences ‘sadness and fear’ or who has wasted work and energy into something that doesn’t exist. How could there have been if the separate individual never existed in the first place.

The label ‘sadness’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and NOT the AE of sadness.
The sensation labelled ‘sadness’ is the AE of sensation and NOT the AE of sadness
The colours labelled ‘Ben/body’ is the AE of colour and NOT the AE of sadness

The label ‘fear’ is the AE of thought and NOT the AE of fear
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the AE of thought and NOT the AE of fear
The colours labelled ‘Ben/body’ is the AE of colour and NOT the AE of fear

I'm also scared. Scared of what I will lose, scared of what I have to go through to get to a point where I see things clearly. Scared of what will happen to me, my body, my life, my relationships, my work.

Change of perception occurs. However, ‘life’ may or may not change, but they aren’t happening to a separate individual called ‘Ben’. There never was a separate individual before this exploration started and there isn’t one now either.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply image/colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought.

So as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree, simply= image/colour
Smelling the coffee = smell,
Feel the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste
Hearing a car drive by = sound
Thought about work = thought.
(Thoughts can be words and thoughts can also show up as mental images)

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

Kay

[Ben2]

Good morning Kay

Can I ask you not to ‘flick’ around the forum please.

My apologies Kay! I slipped up, I'll make sure to stay focused on this thread from now on.

I will endeavor to complete your exercise throughout today and report back.

I finally made it to sleep last night, and woke up in much the same way. A lot of fear, anxiety, energy running throughout my body, but also this "space" in my head that's opened up at the top. I'm sorry but it's hard to explain. But something in my head is different, ever since that "experience" I had where I realised all my childhood stories were made up for the "self".

But this difference scares me. I'm not sure why. I feel like I "broke" something in a weird way. I'm sorry if this is vague Kay but I'm at a loss for words for what's going on to be honest, I'm usually the type of person that explains everything clearly and has so many words, but this is different.

Anyway, thank you and I'll report back and let you know how it goes with your request.


Much appreciated

Ben

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ben,

Even with just the ‘intent’ to sign up, and the signing up to do this exploration, opens the doors to many ‘emotions’. Your realisation that your childhood stories are just that…stories, was the catalyst. Fear is the main emotion that arises as fear, anxiety, resistance, anger, sadness, doubt and confusion. Although there has never been a separate individual, fear arises about what this may mean and what may happen. Fear will be commonplace throughout this exploration until the illusory self has been seen through – so just be gentle with yourself.

Let’s look further into ‘fear/being scared’.

The label ‘fear/scared’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE of fear/being scared.

The sensation labelled ‘fear/scared/energy’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of fear/being scared.

The colours/inage labelled ‘Ben/body’ are the AE of colour/image and not the AE of ‘a person in fear/scared’.

Does the label ‘scared’ know anything about being scared?
Does the label ‘scared’ in any way suggest that it is scared or in fear?
Does the sensation labelled ‘scared’ know anything about being scared?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that it is fear or is scared?
Do the colours labelled ‘Ben/body’ know anything about being scared?
Do the colours in any way suggest that they are fear or are scared?

So there is no actual experience of ‘fear/scared’? It doesn’t exist. What is actually appearing is label + sensation + colours which thought glues together and calls ‘fear/being scared’.

So when next a seeming fearful thought appears and a sensation also appears, remember to breathe and ask the above questions.

1. Check if the ‘fearful’ thought (“I am scared that I broke something”) knows anything about being scared.
So in your mind’s eye see the words/thought “I am scared that I broke something” – and look to see if that thought knows anything about being scared and look to see if there is anything within the thought itself that could be scared.

2. Check in with the sensation. Locate the sensation and see if the sensation knows anything about fear/being scared…or if there is indeed anything to be found within the sensation itself that could be scared.
Have a look at what is underneath the sensation to see what is there, if anything.

3. And check in with the colours/image (body) to see if they know anything about being ‘scared’.

4. Then look everywhere within the ‘body’ (from the ‘head to the toes’…scan it slowly and entirely) and everywhere else (in the room) to see if you can find anything that is scared.

If you have seen that there is nothing there but label + sensation + image…then just allow the raw sensation to be…it will pass on its own and just watch the thoughts as they come an go.

Let me know how you go.

Love, Kay

[Ben2]

Hi Kay

Beautifully written. You have definitely helped calm me a bit, however the beating heart is still there, very fast, and it's hard to sleep. Why all the physical symptoms? Do they go away? I woke up shivering this morning a lot, I have no idea why because it wasn't cold at all.

I've read your post a few times throughout the day to calm myself.

My racing heart is not scared. My thoughts "I'm scared" are not scared. Fear does not exist.

My body, this assortment of colours and sensations, is not scared. It just has a beating heart. It beats hard, it beats soft. There is no fear there.

My thoughts, "I am scared", are just movements of energy in my consciousness. They are not scared, they are just there, doing what they are designed to do. Moving, labelling, being.

I see that the combination of sensation/seeing and thought combine to make a "self" who is scared. There is no reality to this, just a concept. A combination of two things in which one labels and associates another that pretends a third thing is there, the self. But it's not. It's magic, really. Amazing.

There is no fear anywhere in reality. My computer, the walls, the space in the room are all not scared.

Fear is not there. Just a beating heart, owned by no one.

Something I've been thinking about all day, is why do some people have an unhappy self, and others a happy self? It's all an identification with something that isn't there, it doesn't make sense to me how it could produce two completely different types of emotions.

Thank you deeply for being here with me during this Kay.

Much, much love and appreciation

Ben

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ben,

I am glad that you found looking at thought, sensations and images as actual experience helpful. Thoughts themselves are actual experience of thought, but what the thought is ABOUT is a story. As we move along this exploration, things will become clearer.

Why all the physical symptoms? Do they go away? I woke up shivering this morning a lot, I have no idea why because it wasn't cold at all.

We will be looking at the belief in the ‘body’ later on. The body itself is also just a concept and there is no 'Ben' who resides within a body and the body itself does not feel. However, it seems (as far as the story goes about 'body's') that fear produces physical symptoms (flight, fight or freeze) such as a racing heart, shivering (on the other side of shivering, fear can produce excessive sweating) or sleeplessness (the flip side of sleeplessness is the desire just to sleep). So it is a way that the ‘body’ signifies fear and how it deals with fear.

Thank you deeply for being here with me during this Kay.

You are very welcome. :)

I look forward to getting your response to the exercise on noticing actual experience.

Love, Kay

[Ben2]

Hi Kay

1. Check if the ‘fearful’ thought (“I am scared that I broke something”) knows anything about being scared.
So in your mind’s eye see the words/thought “I am scared that I broke something” – and look to see if that thought knows anything about being scared and look to see if there is anything within the thought itself that could be scared.

The thought itself is nothing. It's just like an appearance of energy in a field. It has no reality to it, no substance or truth. It's just words or labels.
There is no fear in a thought. Words that appear point to things, but they are not things themselves. It's impossible for a thought to feel or think.

2. Check in with the sensation. Locate the sensation and see if the sensation knows anything about fear/being scared…or if there is indeed anything to be found within the sensation itself that could be scared.
Have a look at what is underneath the sensation to see what is there, if anything.

The sensation, I'm going to use my racing heart, is just a sensation. Thoughts tend to want to put labels on it such as "uncomfortable", "annoying", "I want it to go away", "what if something is wrong". But when it comes down to it, it's just a sensation. It has no meaning, no conclusions, no intention, no life of its own. It's just something that's there.
It's not scared, it's just a sensation. Fear cannot exist inside a sensation, as it has no meaning to it. It's just there, it just does what it does.
Underneath the sensation? I'm not sure I know how to experience this. I sense there's nothing "under a sensation". A sensation comes from nothingness.

3. And check in with the colours/image (body) to see if they know anything about being ‘scared’.

The colour/image that is body can not know fear. It's just colours. It's just sensations. A colour can't be fear, a sensation can't be fear.

4. Then look everywhere within the ‘body’ (from the ‘head to the toes’…scan it slowly and entirely) and everywhere else (in the room) to see if you can find anything that is scared.

There is no part of my body that is scared. My computer is not scared, the walls and roof do not contain fear. I see fear nowhere. There is only sensation, images and labelling.


I hope this is all clear.

Much appreciated


Ben

[Ben2]

Hi Kay

Oh my God! I never expected this, I never thought it would be like this. I'm kinda freaking out but not. I look at my hand and I feel nothing for it, when before it would be "my" hand, it's nothing. Before I'd think thoughts like "I hate that" or "that makes me so sad", and now I think them and nothing. They just float there. I'm not there anymore! HOLY CRAP

I just stood there for ages, in the park, thinking over and over "what the f***, what the f***". I'm still thinking it now! Absolutely stunned by this. It's completely shocking. I never once thought it would happen to me to be honest, even after years of reading and meditating and self-inquiry, I had assumed it wasn't a real thing. But then it happened and everything made sense. Everything I've read and learnt about this whole thing instantly just made sense.

It's not easy at all like i thought, it's nothing like the stuff that's in books or online. There's this fear, this sense of grieving I guess you could call it, thinking that it's gone forever. "It" that wasn't even there in the first place, but my before "life" is now gone forever. I can see there's no unseeing it when you see it. But 30 years of that is all gone never to come back! Shocking.

I am so utterly stunned and speechless. I want to tell everyone I know! But I can't. Not even my best friends. They wouldn't believe me anyway, and even if they did what would be the point in telling them? Do you recommend connecting with people who are the same? How can you know if someone is the same? God I have so many questions!

Crazy! What a magical, magical ride this has been. And now it's over! Never ever ever again. How can that even be! Yikes.

I don't even know what to say to thank you. Thank you for giving me this beautiful gift, this beautiful, scary, shocking, magical, what-the-hell-is-going-on gift.

With much love

Ben

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ben,

There's this fear, this sense of grieving I guess you could call it, thinking that it's gone forever. "It" that wasn't even there in the first place, but my before "life" is now gone forever. I can see there's no unseeing it when you see it. But 30 years of that is all gone never to come back! Shocking.

Yes, there is no unseeing it once it has been seen. So now it’s just allowing yourself to be with whatever is going on.

I am so utterly stunned and speechless. I want to tell everyone I know! But I can't. Not even my best friends. They wouldn't believe me anyway, and even if they did what would be the point in telling them? Do you recommend connecting with people who are the same? How can you know if someone is the same? God I have so many questions!

My recommendation is that we continue with this process to see through concepts (ie time, others, thoughts etc) to clearly see what is actual experience and what is just story and as we do so, questions will begin to fall away. At the end of these explorations you will be invited to join the LU Aftercare Facebook group and other LU FB groups where you can connect with ‘other people’ who have seen through the illusory self.

1. Check if the ‘fearful’ thought (“I am scared that I broke something”) knows anything about being scared.

The thought itself is nothing. It's just like an appearance of energy in a field. It has no reality to it, no substance or truth. It's just words or labels. There is no fear in a thought. Words that appear point to things, but they are not things themselves. It's impossible for a thought to feel or think.

Yes, exactly. Words/labels/thoughts either point to actual experience or they point to more thoughts. Actual experience is everything, except, the "content" of thought, because thought does not contain any experience.

2. Check in with the sensation. Locate the sensation and see if the sensation knows anything about fear/being scared…

The sensation, I'm going to use my racing heart, is just a sensation. Thoughts tend to want to put labels on it such as "uncomfortable", "annoying", "I want it to go away", "what if something is wrong". But when it comes down to it, it's just a sensation. It has no meaning, no conclusions, no intention, no life of its own. It's just something that's there. It's not scared, it's just a sensation. Fear cannot exist inside a sensation, as it has no meaning to it. It's just there, it just does what it does. Underneath the sensation? I'm not sure I know how to experience this. I sense there's nothing "under a sensation". A sensation comes from nothingness.

Precisely! A sensation is just a sensation which thought then labels as something.

What is the actual experience (AE) of ‘racing heart’?
The thought ‘racing heart’ is actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE of a racing heart
The sensation labelled as ‘racing heart’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of a racing heart
The image/colour labelled as ‘racing heart/body’ is the AE of image/colour and not the AE of a racing heart.

So there is no such thing as a ‘racing heart’. What is really there is thought + sensation + image/colour.
Can you see this?

3. And check in with the colours/image (body) to see if they know anything about being ‘scared’.

The colour/image that is body can not know fear. It's just colours. It's just sensations. A colour can't be fear, a sensation can't be fear.

Nice, Ben. You’re clarity is wonderful.

4. Then look everywhere within the ‘body’ (from the ‘head to the toes’…scan it slowly and entirely) and everywhere else (in the room) to see if you can find anything that is scared.

There is no part of my body that is scared. My computer is not scared, the walls and roof do not contain fear. I see fear nowhere. There is only sensation, images and labelling.

Nice looking!
How is it known that the ‘body’ is your body?

Can you report back on how you are going with the exercise of labelling experience simply as image/colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought?

Please answer the questions that is highlighted in blue.

Love, Kay