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[Dangermouse]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I began my own search for the truth after the sudden loss of my dear husband 5 years ago. After reading Butterflies are Free to Fly it led me to the McKenna Trilogy. Although intellectually I understand the no-self reality I can't 'get' it so I just searched for no -self and found this site.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I'm not really looking for anything just wanting to stop 'fighting' life. I'm hoping this will stop this incessant search by helping me to see the truth.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have no religious /spiritual background at all and only began with the above mentioned books about 6 months after my husband died (there's got to be more than this?) It began as a desperate attempt to find a reason to go on but has become much more. I haven't studied any religion except for my school years and cannot bring myself to believe in any God.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

[Sarah7]

Hi Dangermouse! Great name :)
I'm Sarah and I'd be happy to speak with you. What would you like me to call you if something different?
Have you looked around our site? Do you know what we do here?
Looking forward to speaking with you.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah, just getting used to things. I've never posted on any forum before so it's new to me. I thought I had already posted a reply but after looking through the website found it wasn't there. Thank you so much for your willingness to help, I can't tell you what it means to find someone who wants to. I've tried suicide, councelling, psychiatry and nothing helps. I have a wonderful, supportive family so why isn't this enough? Always felt like I don't 'fit'.
Sending you love and so much gratitude Sarah
x

[Dangermouse]

Oops! Please call me Jackie. Just for info I have read 'The Gateless Gate'.

[Sarah7]

Hi Jackie
House keeping first:
In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:
1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send? Ok.

Lets get going then!
How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for your quick reply.

I experience myself as a jumble of thoughts that inhabit the whole of my body but with a solid
'lump' in the middle. It's like a spider with legs that spread throughout the rest of me. When all is going well this self
feels quite light but when I experience problems it feels oh so heavy. It resides mainly in memories only looking to the
future if it has to. It's made up of a big mess of thoughts and emotions which it doesn't seem to have much control over.
It only goes away when I sleep.

When I really look I can't find 'self' anywhere. That's strange. Where does it hide?

Nothing exists outside of this present moment. There is nothing until it happens, and if it already has, it's gone.

Nothing is permanent - everything just comes and goes. Not sure why I think that.

Thanks for listening Sarah, I really appreciate it. Messed up the quote stuff but I will practice!
x

[Sarah7]

Mornin Jackie
Did you read the link for direct experience? If not can you do that please. It is what we do here. We ask you to look, not think about answers. Hope that makes sense. If not please let me know. :)

You say you experience yourself as a jumble of thoughts, but not when asleep. Do you experience yourself when thinking is not happening?

Do you intentionally bring thoughts? Or do they come and go on their own? If you do bring them from where and how?

Can you send them away, stop them or get rid? Can you suppress your next thought before it arises? Does it work?

Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah, thanks for the reply. I've had another look at the direct experience article and I'm sorry if my answers were not what you were looking for. Here goes...

'You say you experience yourself as a jumble of thoughts, but not when asleep. Do you experience yourself when thinking is not happening?'

No, I don't. I've done the looking around exercise without thought and there doesn't seem to be anything. It's just an experience.

'Do you intentionally bring thoughts? Or do they come and go on their own? If you do bring them from where and how?'

I don't know how they get there or where they come from (or where they go to). The external experiences seem to be a big trigger, maybe the only one. I'm sure I don't intentionally bring them.

'Can you send them away, stop them or get rid? Can you suppress your next thought before it arises? Does it work?'

Damn things just happen and I can't get rid of or stop them. I can't suppress them or control them at all.

'Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?'

Lol, I found trying to predict my next thought was so funny - not sure why. I always thought I could but I know for sure now I can't. It felt like trying to grab smoke.

Sarah, I am amazed at how much I just don't know! Thank you so much for your help and hope these answers are more precise for you.
Love Jackie
x

[Sarah7]

Hey Jackie

I'm sorry if my answers were not what you were looking for.

Please don't misunderstand me. I want you to answer honestly from where you are - nothing less. However here we look at things slightly differently. We tend to look at thought first to supple answers - here we look at what is actually experienced rather than thought to be experienced. Hopes that make sense?

It's just an experience.

Lovely.

The external experiences seem to be a big trigger, maybe the only one. I'm sure I don't intentionally bring them.

Do you experience external forces bringing thought? Or is thought labelling, explaining etc external stuff?

Damn things just happen and I can't get rid of or stop them. I can't suppress them or control them at all.

Can you see what is bothered by these damn things? Is it more thought? LOL.

I am amazed at how much I just don't know!

Perfect place to be! :)
Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
Is there is a thought that you can control?
What can a thought do – what power does it have?
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah,
Goodness! I've been looking at this from the wrong side! Of course it's thoughts labelling everything. How can 'I' plan any thought? It just happens.

Please forgive me Sarah I'm looking after my granddaughters so am using a tablet which I'm not very good with.

I'm seeing there's nothing capable of controlling any thought. They happen!

Thought has no power unless 'I' allow it. Unfortunately I do.

Is the thought content real? I'm stuck here Sarah. It's as real as I make it (cringe ).

Sorry it's brief Sarah but I didn't want you to think I'm not committed to this.

Love Jackie
X

[Sarah7]

Mornin Jackie
I'm too on an iPad and not very good either! Lol
You: Goodness! I've been looking at this from the wrong side! Of course it's thoughts labelling everything. How can 'I' plan any thought? It just happens.

And

You: I'm seeing there's nothing capable of controlling any thought. They happen!

So.......

You: Thought has no power unless 'I' allow it. Unfortunately I do.

Me: Who or what gives them power? Are 'you' deliberately doing it? Or does it just happen? Can you see it happen? Either during or after?

You: Is the thought content real? I'm stuck here Sarah.

Me: well here's a thought 'that is water'. Is the thought actually water? What is actually being experienced here? The thought or water? Do you see?

You: Sorry it's brief Sarah but I didn't want you to think I'm not committed to this.
Me: Dont mind brief as long as looking is happening. Ok.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah,

I'm still not good with the quote stuff but going to go over the instructions again! Lol. I've just copied and pasted for now...

Who or what gives them power? Are 'you' deliberately doing it? Or does it just happen? Can you see it happen? Either during or after?

It just happens Sarah, the discomfort is just there. I don't see it happen, it's in my head and stomach. Not deliberate. I'm getting angry with myself for not seeing the truth. I think I'm getting there but when something happens I go back to 'default'. Grrrhhh... feel like knocking my head against the wall.



well here's a thought 'that is water'. Is the thought actually water? What is actually being experienced here? The thought or water? Do you see?

Ah ha! I'm experiencing the thought, not the water. I can't experience the water directly because only thought tells me what it is. And I think it's only thought that's being told! This is crazy!

Everything is thought isn't it Sarah? I know I don't create the thoughts or control them so 'I' can't be here. I soooo want to 'get' it I'm actually gritting my teeth at the moment.

Once again, thanks so much Sarah I really appreciate your time with me.

Love Jackie
x

PS I'm not getting the notifications when a reply is posted and I can't work out why. The blue band at the bottom states I am subscribed to this thread.

[Sarah7]

Hi
I'm posting tonight again coz tomorrow I'm going to be travelling. I will still be posting but it may be irregular. Hope that's ok.

You: It just happens Sarah, the discomfort is just there. I don't see it happen, it's in my head and stomach. Not deliberate. I'm getting angry with myself for not seeing the truth.

Me: ok. I want you to break up the discomfort and the anger. What are they both made up of. Sensation? Thought? Emotion? What?

You: Ah ha! I'm experiencing the thought, not the water. I can't experience the water directly because only thought tells me what it is. And I think it's only thought that's being told! This is crazy!

And

You: Everything is thought isn't it Sarah? I know I don't create the thoughts or control them so 'I' can't be here. I soooo want to 'get' it I'm actually gritting my teeth at the moment.

Me: verify everything is a thought please. Just notice as much as possible. No worries if something is missed, just smile and pick up when remembering happens. Ok!
So what wants to get it?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah,

That's fine, I'm back at work now so my replies won't be as prompt.

ok. I want you to break up the discomfort and the anger. What are they both made up of. Sensation? Thought? Emotion? What?

The discomfort and anger seemed to be made up of all three – desperation being the main one. I want to let this go….

verify everything is a thought please. Just notice as much as possible. No worries if something is missed, just smile and pick up when remembering happens. Ok!
So what wants to get it?

Everything isn't a thought! It's experience that causes the thoughts. There's nothing there to 'get' it. It's just a circle of experiences/thoughts. I can't see anything behind them!

I'm going to have to ponder this some more Sarah.
Love
Jackie
x

[Sarah7]

Hey Jackie
You: The discomfort and anger seemed to be made up of all three – desperation being the main one. I want to let this go….

Me: Ok. Look for what wants to let it go? Is that a thought? And if there is emotion there too, is there thought explaining what that emotion is, creating a story around it?

You: Everything isn't a thought! It's experience that causes the thoughts. There's nothing there to 'get' it. It's just a circle of experiences/thoughts

Me: But is it thought that explains experience? That describes it, that says where it is, what colour it is, what texture, labelling everything.........?
What minds the thinking? Another thought? Can thought think? What can thought actually 'know'?
Hugs Sarah xxxx