Looking for some guidance

[Pedersen]

Since I registered on this forum a couple of years ago, I've been longing to see through the illusion of the self. The search for the perfect method just kept me postponing getting started.. So for years I've been researching spirituality and various methods to approach this topic with the result of me circling around and ending up here again.
I'm now ready to forget everything and concentrate on the direct pointing used in this forum.

I hope to see through the illusion of a self - and from this become more mindful and aware in everyday life.. Furthermore to live life more light instead of being caught up in the stories and dramas created by the mind.

I've watched all the videos by Rupert Spira and have also read material by Ramana Maharshi. In summary, I have a good intellectual understanding, but am not experiencing it in my daily life. I'm daily trying to locate and be interested in the observer of thoughts and sense experiences.


I am ready to get started, and am willing to question everything!!

[Bananafish]

Greetings, Pedersen! :)

Welcome to LU. I'd be more than glad to be your guide.

If you hope to see through the illusion of a separate self,
This is a perfect place for you. :)


Let's start now.


You are looking at the computer screen when reading this.

Where does this "you" that is looking at the screen exist?
Could you search for the exact place where "you" exist?

Also, please report what comes up (thoughts, feelings, emotions ...)
when investigating in the above way.


Best wishes,

Bananafish

[Pedersen]

Greetings Bananafish

Thank you so much for accepting to be my guide, I look forward to this journey:-)

Where does this "you" that is looking at the screen exist?

When I superficially try to locate myself, it faintly feels like I am located behind my eyes, in the middle of the brain. When I then try to look a little harder, it´s just blank and there´s nothing there. When trying to locate myself, it becomes silent for a brief time.

Also, please report what comes up (thoughts, feelings, emotions ...)
when investigating in the above way.

After a while, it feels like my sense of self is a mix of feeling my body and identifying with thoughts constantly appearing and commenting on everything. I believe my sense of being located in the head arise because thoughts, seeing, hearing, smelling etc. is located in the head.

I don´t really experience specific emotions due to the investigation, but I become more aware of different emotions that are constantly flowing in the body - Mostly around the area of the solar plexus.

[Bananafish]

Hi Pedersen! :)

Greetings Bananafish

Thank you so much for accepting to be my guide, I look forward to this journey:-)

Yes, same here. :)

When I superficially try to locate myself, it faintly feels like I am located behind my eyes, in the middle of the brain. When I then try to look a little harder, it´s just blank and there´s nothing there. When trying to locate myself, it becomes silent for a brief time.

Great!

When you try to look in this way, is there an entity that makes a
decision to look, or does looking just happen?

Please try looking again, and observe the process.

After a while, it feels like my sense of self is a mix of feeling my body and identifying with thoughts constantly appearing and commenting on everything. I believe my sense of being located in the head arise because thoughts, seeing, hearing, smelling etc. is located in the head.

How do you know that thoughts, seeing, hearing, smelling etc.
are located in the head?

Aren’t they a process, a movement, rather than
a concrete “thing”?


Where exactly are they located,
and what makes you know that they exist in that location?

I don´t really experience specific emotions due to the investigation, but I become more aware of different emotions that are constantly flowing in the body - Mostly around the area of the solar plexus.

Good!

When these emotions flow, are they made to flow by
someone (some separate, concrete entity) or do they just flow,
without no one to make it flow?


Peace,

Bananafish

[Pedersen]

is there an entity that makes a
decision to look, or does looking just happen?

Somehow it´s quite difficult to get a sense of self and non-self in terms of decisions. If I really concentrate on it, it´s obvious that there is no entity deciding anyting - there is just flow, everything from thoughts to emotions just happen. When thinking about a decision after the fact, it seems it always comes down to the decision being triggered by something - either random thoughts, sounds, sights, etc.

How do you know that thoughts, seeing, hearing, smelling etc.
are located in the head?

Where exactly are they located,
and what makes you know that they exist in that location?

Spatially, it feels like they are located in the head - it sounds like thoughts are located in the head, visual impressions come in through the eyes, sounds through the ears. My everyday feeling is that sensory input is spatial and related to where and what it hits my body. If I hit my toe on a chair, the feeling seems to be located "down" on my toe.
If I close my eyes and concentrate hard, I can get a sense of everything just appearing in empty space/awareness - thoughts, feelings, sounds etc. are just appearing in a space that doesn´t seem to have any qualities.

Aren’t they a process, a movement, rather than
a concrete “thing”?

As an engineer by profession I have been trained to see everything as discrete concrete objects that are appart from "me". This is my everyda experience, but sometimes when I concentrate hard on it there seems to be a process/flow to experience instead.

When these emotions flow, are they made to flow by
someone (some separate, concrete entity) or do they just flow,
without no one to make it flow?

My experience is that emotions flow without anyone making them do so.


Peace,

Pedersen

[Bananafish]

Somehow it´s quite difficult to get a sense of self and non-self in terms of decisions. If I really concentrate on it, it´s obvious that there is no entity deciding anyting - there is just flow, everything from thoughts to emotions just happen. When thinking about a decision after the fact, it seems it always comes down to the decision being triggered by something - either random thoughts, sounds, sights, etc.

Is this more like an intellectual understanding,
or experiential one?

When it's found that there is no one to decide, is "decision" more like
just a movement (of thoughts, sensation, etc) or not?

Spatially, it feels like they are located in the head - it sounds like thoughts are located in the head, visual impressions come in through the eyes, sounds through the ears. My everyday feeling is that sensory input is spatial and related to where and what it hits my body. If I hit my toe on a chair, the feeling seems to be located "down" on my toe.
If I close my eyes and concentrate hard, I can get a sense of everything just appearing in empty space/awareness - thoughts, feelings, sounds etc. are just appearing in a space that doesn´t seem to have any qualities.

What if you've never seen nor known about all these parts of the body?

Sit on the chair and see, hear, feel what is right here, right now.
How would you describe the experience, without the thoughts about the
body?

As an engineer by profession I have been trained to see everything as discrete concrete objects that are appart from "me". This is my everyda experience, but sometimes when I concentrate hard on it there seems to be a process/flow to experience instead.

Can you look at this "flow" and describe it?

My experience is that emotions flow without anyone making them do so.

Great!

Now, where, in what kind of form do you find a "me," "I," or "self?"
Can you look everywhere and report what you discovered?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Bananafish]

Dear Pedersen,

I will be on a business trip to Canada, and
might not have enough time to fully respond to your next
post.

If that happens, please keep LOOKing,
and please post the discovery (if any) even
while I don't post.

Regards,

Bananafish

[Pedersen]

Hi Bananafish

Have a very nice trip, I´ll keep posting:-)

Is this more like an intellectual understanding,
or experiential one?

If I´m "awake" and put my attention on it, it is my experience that everyting happens without a do´er. But when I´m asleep there´s definately a faint feeling of a do´er in decision making. When looking at this feeling of a do´er, it seems to be a combination of thoughts and sensations in the body and on the skin.

When it's found that there is no one to decide, is "decision" more like
just a movement (of thoughts, sensation, etc) or not?

When I´m aware I get a glimpse of everything just flowing/movement - but when I´m working for instance and things become hectic, "self" as the do´er in decision making seems to be the experience. Lately I am becoming more aware, and keep looking for the do´er, it seems the "self" thought is weakening a bit.

What if you've never seen nor known about all these parts of the body?

Sit on the chair and see, hear, feel what is right here, right now.
How would you describe the experience, without the thoughts about the
body?

Then it is more like everything happens in the same space. For example, the sensation of the butt on the chair is popping up the same place that thoughts show up and where sounds are heard.

Can you look at this "flow" and describe it?

it is like I´m trying to observe all experience from the perspective of that which is aware of everything - When I try to do this, there is no do´er just sensations and all is flowing with no volition. This experience is very fleeting though, it demands quite a lot of awareness.
Whith flow I just mean that there is movement - it´s difficult to explain, but the sense of cause and effect and reason for the movement is gone, things just move.

Now, where, in what kind of form do you find a "me," "I," or "self?"
Can you look everywhere and report what you discovered?

I need to carefully investigate this, will report back in the Next post..

Have a nice day, and Again hope you´ll have a nice business trip.

Regards,

Pedersen

[Pedersen]

Now, where, in what kind of form do you find a "me," "I," or "self?"
Can you look everywhere and report what you discovered?
I need to carefully investigate this, will report back in the Next post..

If I start from scratch:
- At first without carefully looking, I am this body and my control center is located in the head.
Break it further Down:
- It seems inner talk (thoughts) and sensations on the skin, especially in the face, create a faint sense of a self.
Now looking deeper:
- If I ask who it is observing thoughts and sensations on the skin -> no-one is found, thoughts stop for a while and everything(thoughts, sounds, sight etc.) is just movement. This experience requires quite a lot of attention though.


Everytime I am aware of something, a sound or thought etc. I ask myself who is aware of this - then silence, no self can be found anywhere. I can´t find an I anywhere, but I still feel I am somewhere, like a genie in a bottle.

I´ve tried to locate myself when moving my hand for example - If I look at my hand and choose to move it, it moves, but I can´t find the one who decides to move the hand, can´t feel where the decider is located. It´s quite frustrating, I can´t find myself anywhere, but I still feel I am my mind and body..

[Bananafish]

Hi Pedersen!

Managed to have some spare time to post. :)

If I´m "awake" and put my attention on it, it is my experience that everyting happens without a do´er. But when I´m asleep there´s definately a faint feeling of a do´er in decision making. When looking at this feeling of a do´er, it seems to be a combination of thoughts and sensations in the body and on the skin.

What is the difference between being "awake" and "asleep?"


Who, or what is it that goes from "awake" to "asleep" and vive versa?


What thoughts arise when there is a feeling of doer?

When I´m aware I get a glimpse of everything just flowing/movement - but when I´m working for instance and things become hectic, "self" as the do´er in decision making seems to be the experience. Lately I am becoming more aware, and keep looking for the do´er, it seems the "self" thought is weakening a bit.

If there is no doer, who is being aware?
Next time when being "aware," can you LOOK?

Then it is more like everything happens in the same space. For example, the sensation of the butt on the chair is popping up the same place that thoughts show up and where sounds are heard.

Great!
Any division or separation there?

it is like I´m trying to observe all experience from the perspective of that which is aware of everything - When I try to do this, there is no do´er just sensations and all is flowing with no volition. This experience is very fleeting though, it demands quite a lot of awareness.

Again, please observe who is aware.
Point at the one that is aware. Did you point at a particular
place or object?

Whith flow I just mean that there is movement - it´s difficult to explain, but the sense of cause and effect and reason for the movement is gone, things just move.

Yes! Then, is that a special kind of 'state?'

If I start from scratch:
- At first without carefully looking, I am this body and my control center is located in the head.
Break it further Down:
- It seems inner talk (thoughts) and sensations on the skin, especially in the face, create a faint sense of a self.
Now looking deeper:
- If I ask who it is observing thoughts and sensations on the skin -> no-one is found, thoughts stop for a while and everything(thoughts, sounds, sight etc.) is just movement. This experience requires quite a lot of attention though.

Nice observation, Pedersen! :)

Please don't force yourself too much, just try LOOKing (literally)
during your waking hour; when walking, find the walker
when washing dishes, find the washer ...

Everytime I am aware of something, a sound or thought etc. I ask myself who is aware of this - then silence, no self can be found anywhere. I can´t find an I anywhere, but I still feel I am somewhere, like a genie in a bottle.

I´ve tried to locate myself when moving my hand for example - If I look at my hand and choose to move it, it moves, but I can´t find the one who decides to move the hand, can´t feel where the decider is located. It´s quite frustrating, I can´t find myself anywhere, but I still feel I am my mind and body..

Ok, no worries, we'll work it out. :)

What is the "mind" which you think you are?
Can you describe it for me?


Peace,

Bananafish

[Pedersen]

Hi Bananafish

Nice to hear from you, hope the trip is great so far:-)

What is the difference between being "awake" and "asleep?"

The difference between awake and sleep in the context I write it is, when asleep I´m completely identified with my body and mind, more or less everything is happening on autopilot. When awake, I mean being aware of sensations, thoughts etc. - Mindful could be another term for awake I guess.

Who, or what is it that goes from "awake" to "asleep" and vive versa?

When I try to observe the experience of transition from asleep to awake, no one can be found doing it, just like when I observe my hand and "make" it move, it just happens automatically.

What thoughts arise when there is a feeling of doer?

This is a very good question, it made my mind go blank - I tried to get a feeling of a doer when choosing to pres random numbers on the keyboard and see if any thoughts pop up, there´s absolutely nothing. I´ll try to ponder this during the day when I get a feeling of a self and report back.

If there is no doer, who is being aware?
Next time when being "aware," can you LOOK?

I can´t identify any who, the experience of choosing and doing just happens. I´ll continue with this question as well.

Great!
Any division or separation there?

If I close my eyes and focus on sensations and sounds, there´s no separation as it all happens in the same Space. But when I´m consumed by thoughts during Work for instance, there is an experience of division between sensations on "me" and objects out there in the World - be it seen objects or heard sounds.


I need to look further into the rest of the questions more deeply - I´ll report back in the Next post.


Have a great day:-)

Best regards,
Pedersen

[Pedersen]

Point at the one that is aware. Did you point at a particular
place or object?

I first pointed at my body, then more precisely at my head - pinpointing a specific place in the head it feels vaguely like it's behind my eyes in the middle of the head.. Then looking deeper it disappears, there's no one who is aware, it was a false sense of self..

Yes! Then, is that a special kind of 'state?'

No it's not a special kind of state, it just feels more alive.

What is the "mind" which you think you are?
Can you describe it for me?

No, right now I don't seem to be able to, there is no mind in my experience, only thoughts.

[Bananafish]

Hi Pedersen! :)

Nice to hear from you, hope the trip is great so far:-)

Thanks, it's been great so far. :)

The difference between awake and sleep in the context I write it is, when asleep I´m completely identified with my body and mind, more or less everything is happening on autopilot. When awake, I mean being aware of sensations, thoughts etc. - Mindful could be another term for awake I guess.

Ok, when being mindful, LOOK at who is being mindful.


You sound a bit like making unwatchfulness a problem (correct me if I'm wrong ...).

For whom is that a problem?


Are there two separate, concrete human 'states' called "mindful" and 'unmindful,' or
are these part of the movement of Life? LOOK!

When I try to observe the experience of transition from asleep to awake, no one can be found doing it, just like when I observe my hand and "make" it move, it just happens automatically.

Great!

I tried to get a feeling of a doer when choosing to pres random numbers on the keyboard and see if any thoughts pop up, there´s absolutely nothing. I´ll try to ponder this during the day when I get a feeling of a self and report back.

Ok, please report later. :)

I can´t identify any who, the experience of choosing and doing just happens. I´ll continue with this question as well.

:)

If I close my eyes and focus on sensations and sounds, there´s no separation as it all happens in the same Space. But when I´m consumed by thoughts during Work for instance, there is an experience of division between sensations on "me" and objects out there in the World - be it seen objects or heard sounds.

Again, LOOK at the one who is consumed by thoughts and please report what you found.

I first pointed at my body, then more precisely at my head - pinpointing a specific place in the head it feels vaguely like it's behind my eyes in the middle of the head.. Then looking deeper it disappears, there's no one who is aware, it was a false sense of self..

Good! Does a "me" reside inside the body?
What is 'body?' can you LOOK and tell?

No it's not a special kind of state, it just feels more alive.

Great! I feel you're doing very well ... keep your good work! :)

No, right now I don't seem to be able to, there is no mind in my experience, only thoughts.

Yes, there isn't a concrete entity called 'mind' ... just a bunch of thoughts
happening HERE and NOW.


Now, LOOK at those thoughts again as they pop out.

Does something like "my mind" exist?


Warm regards,

Kento

[Pedersen]

Hi Kento

Thank you for the nice questions

I am going to a family event today and probably don't get an opportunity to post a reply... I'll post tomorrow.
In the meantime I'll try to locate myself.

Have a nice day, looking forward to continue :-)


Best regards,
Pedersen

[Pedersen]

Hi Kento

Hope you´ve had a nice weekend:-)

You sound a bit like making unwatchfulness a problem (correct me if I'm wrong ...).

For whom is that a problem?

Are there two separate, concrete human 'states' called "mindful" and 'unmindful,' or
are these part of the movement of Life? LOOK!

Thoughts pop up saying it´s a problem because unmindfulness seems like a hindrance to seeing the illusion of a self.
In retrospect, it´s not a problem at all, as there is no one to whom it´s a problem. It´s simply just a natural flow of becoming aware and unaware - no one is becoming aware and unaware.

I tried to get a feeling of a doer when choosing to pres random numbers on the keyboard and see if any thoughts pop up, there´s absolutely nothing. I´ll try to ponder this during the day when I get a feeling of a self and report back.

Ok, please report later. :)

97664256 8974
The feeling of a me choosing to press the numbers a deeply conditioned, but when looking there is simply no one. thoughts are commenting and saying the numbers before pressing them, which makes it feel like there is a doer choosing them.

Again, LOOK at the one who is consumed by thoughts and please report what you found.

In order to answer this, I´m trying to find the director of attention. At one moment I can put attention on the foot, next I can put attention on the finger and next, complete attention can be on an object with background thoughts commenting rapidly - which I believe is the case of being consumed by thoughts.

I can´t locate the one who directs attention on the different objects, but at the same time the experience doesn´t feel automatic, like just movement and flow - As in an implicit doer.

Good! Does a "me" reside inside the body?
What is 'body?' can you LOOK and tell?

In direct experience, no me reside inside a body, and body is a concept - Not real. In direct experience, body is different types of feelings of energy(emotions), sense perception of seeing concepts called arms+legs+body+nose, and sensations on the skin.

Now, LOOK at those thoughts again as they pop out.

Does something like "my mind" exist?

No mind exist except as a concept - only thoughts.


Thank you for the questions Kento, have a nice weekend:-)

Regards,
Pedersen