Need to be pushed over the edge

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Silatigi
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Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Silatigi » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:59 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
Need help to see through it.
Seen many different insight during my first retreat like seeing my body from the inside with the skeletton and everything. Looking at nature, observing things, telling me stories of how everything was some sort of a joke and that enlightement did not matter that what mattered was having the right connection with people, ie what is real love in terms of relationship. Though that we wers imply monkeys on a ball of fire, lost in our attchement to Maya and the delusion. Realized the only response would be compassion for those still in ignorance, including my "me" which is as real as a rainbow. My second retreat was Soto Zen, lots of amazing bliss but also lots of tiredness and attachment, feeling not enough time for myself to investigate properly.

My last reatreat in november, had to let go of lot of assumption around what's what and what's important.
Tried to practise the jhana according to Leigh Brasington (Ayya Khema style) and realized had to stop striving to get to the bliss and the circles of lights and nimitta. Then later on really starting looking into the field of my experience and see as a glimpse that there are only the 5 skhandas but still feelings of "me" and "I" have not entereily dispappeared

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
A clearer vision of what is.
Looking for an understanding of what the pah is what it means to understand the full dependent origination in practise, ie is there suffering, what is suffering really ? Surely not the unpleasant vedena, more an attachment to one of the 5 skandhas. Diffulty seeing properly which skandha I am clinging to that's creating the "me" and teh suffering.

How to see things are only emerging phenomena and still keep a non cynical point of view.
Like if full understanding and liberation is there that means that even if people close to "me" die I may not feel anything, because feeling sadness would mean I don't see there are no people but just dependently orgininated phenomeno raising and falling away independently of me.

The me is not in control, letting go. Feel need to let go of more but how to let go without proper investigation and what need to be let go of in the first place?


What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
1Y meditation practise (3 "1w" retreats in theravada and zen)
cf first and second answers

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

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Freddi
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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Freddi » Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:45 am

Hi Silatigi (is this what you would like me to call you?),

Welcome to LU! This is Fred, from France. Very nice to meet you.

A few quick guidelines: look to post daily/regularly or post to say if a break is needed; and set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together.

If you could confirm that you have read our disclaimer, here: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
and the article on direct experience, here: http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/
and that you would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin!

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Silatigi
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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Silatigi » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:27 pm

Hi Fred,

Thanks a lot for your quick answer !
I'm french but reading most about practices in english so we can keep in english or switch to french if you prefer.

You can call me Sil for now :)
confirm that you have read our disclaimer and the article on direct experience
done

Yes, happy for you to be my guide !

Thanks

Sil

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Freddi
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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Freddi » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:29 pm

Hi again Sil,
I'm french but reading most about practices in english so we can keep in english or switch to french if you prefer.
Well as you started a thread in the English speaking forum, let’s continue in English. Of course, if you feel, at any time, that words fail you and that you would feel more comfortable in your mother tongue, you can switch!
What do you expect from this?: 
A clearer vision of what is.
What makes you think you do not already have as clear a vision as can be, right now?
What is the way? What should be different from what is already here?

If you lay aside, for a moment, all that thought says you are, all the practices, the retreats, the story of Sil, the suffering of Sil, what’s left? What are ‘you’?

Take some time to contemplate these questions, Sil, spend some time around them, let them percolate. Don’t let the mind come up with a quick answer. Stay away from any jargon, instead tell me exactly what you see, in your own words and your own time.

Thank you!

Fred

PS It would help if you could use the quote function, as explained here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

and at the bottom of this window, there is a 'subscribe' button, which, if you click it, will send you a notification when I post :-)
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Silatigi
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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Silatigi » Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:10 pm

Thanks a lot Fred for coming up with these question.

Let me probe into what I see here.
What makes you think you do not already have as clear a vision as can be, right now?
Hum that's a tough one. "What" ? I would say confusion, pain, not knowning, fear. Not seeing what makes me suffering right now if there is suffering, and not seeing what will make me suffer when it will cease when there is happiness/pleasure in the now.
What is the way?


My understanding of the "way" is not to attach to anything, to let our awarness be unsticky, not caught up or identified with anything whatsoever not even the idea that it should not attach to anything.
Every time we attach or identify we become and then we decay and suffer when this identify disappears.
The stickiness is like being stuck on the bank of the river so we prevent our awarness from free floating in the middle of the river to go to its cooling down/nibbana.
What should be different from what is already here?


I guess my goal is to create good habits to help the unsticky process from happening as often as it happens now.
That's the idea of a future where "my" awarness will not identify with stuff (emotions, thoughts, stories, you name it)
At the moment this is not always like that there are so many moment where I'm caught up in issues at work or emotions and stories.

If you lay aside, for a moment, all that thought says you are, all the practices, the retreats, the story of Sil, the suffering of Sil, what’s left? What are ‘you’?
If I don't attach I am "naked/simple/mere" awarness. A potential waiting to get sense objects, thoughts and images appearing in it. Seeing this awarness as simple awarness is very relaxing creates some feelings that also touches the body around the heart. Even if there are horrible feelings of fear and aversion if I let go of them I'm feeling something's is lifting me allowing me to bear with it. It doesn't not happen all the time though. Only when I'm able to distanciate myself from the stuff.

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Freddi
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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Freddi » Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:32 pm

Hi again, Sil,

Fred: What makes you think you do not already have as clear a vision as can be, right now?
Sil: Hum that's a tough one. "What" ? I would say confusion, pain, not knowning, fear. Not seeing what makes me suffering right now if there is suffering, and not seeing what will make me suffer when it will cease when there is happiness/pleasure in the now.
Now look at these words you wrote and consider this: what, in them, is experience and what is thought?
Stop and look, right now, into what is given by your immediate experience. Do you see confusion? Is there pain?
Is fear present, in this moment, or is it a reference to a past or future event?
Fred: What is the way?
Sil: My understanding of the "way" is not to attach to anything…
Oops sorry, that question was meant to be ‘what is in the way' of clarity, right now, in this minute?
Every time we attach or identify we become and then we decay and suffer when this identify disappears (…)If I don't attach I am "naked/simple/mere" awarness.
Is this answer coming from experience or thought?
Take a deep breath, step out of the thought stream, and scan the landscape of what is seen, heard, felt, touched in this moment, the contact with THIS.
What entity do you see that could attach or identify? If I ask you to point to it with your finger, what does the finger show?
What is ‘naked/simple/mere awareness’ (your words)? Is it something tangible, verifiable, or is it imagined?
Could you describe it, as you see it, not as you think it?

Thank you!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Silatigi
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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Silatigi » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:44 pm

Hey Fred,

Thanks a lot for your quick reply !

Noticed that you didn't debate or told if you thought my views were right or wrong or if you agree or disagree with them. Interesting. Maybe that's a tell tale in the sense that maybe that all these are opinion and views on what's what but there are not to be believed. Just thought. Just thoughts. But what or who is seeing these thoughts ? Who is. Who is who ? I'm stuck again...

Let me first answers to your questions
Now look at these words you wrote and consider this: what, in them, is experience and what is thought?
Experience is changing all the time. Different flows. I can say what's now.
Do you see confusion? Is there pain?
I don't see confusion, confusion is just that i don't seem to be "getting" it. Something is telling me that I don't get it but I don't get what is to be gotten in the first place. Maybe there's nothing to be get ? Stuck in thoughts again. Thoughts are thoughts.
Is there pain?
There is feeling right now. Some warmth around my heart with a light tension, contraction.
There is seeing of the screen.
Is fear present, in this moment, or is it a reference to a past or future event?
In this moment there is tiredness, sinking feeling, stomach contracted, slight headache. But fear ? What is fear anyway ?? Is it different from its symptoms ? Deconstructing fear. Hum I need to look deeper into that one. Ok so I feel these things contraction, unease, cramp in stomach. And then it creates a feeling. And I'm afraid of it. Want to get rid of it. Hum that's odd. Who is afraid ? Who wants to run away, hide under the covers ? Disappear ?
Hum that's odd, what is this repulsive stuff that pushes me ???
what is in the way' of clarity, right now, in this minute?
In the way ? All these thoughts I guess ahah :)
And the fear too...

"Every time we attach or identify we become and then we decay and suffer when this identify disappears (…)If I don't attach I am "naked/simple/mere" awarness."
Is this answer coming from experience or thought?
Both thoughts coming from observing this process. But I still have lots of doubts. Is this view correct or not ?
Is that the path or not the path ? My thoughts about the path ? Just want reassurance that the path is the path and that's I'm not lost, following a red herring...
Take a deep breath, step out of the thought stream, and scan the landscape of what is seen, heard, felt, touched in this moment, the contact with THIS.
What entity do you see that could attach or identify?
Ok I'm there. I see stuff I hear stuff I feel stuff. Or rather images are experienced/seen, sounds are heard, feeling are there in the heart - contact with the keyboard is real. My heart is throbbing, beating my mouth is dry. Lots of confusion. Thoughts flying all over. Hands trembling a little.

There must be something aware of that stuff. I don't see it though. What is it ? I don't know !!
If I ask you to point to it with your finger, what does the finger show?
Nothing. But what does it mean ? I don't know!!
What is ‘naked/simple/mere awareness’ (your words)? Is it something tangible, verifiable, or is it imagined?
Could you describe it, as you see it, not as you think it?
I don't see it. It is a concept. To explain what's going on. There must be a reason for suffering no ?
Why do we suffer ? Do we suffer ?

Arg. Still caught in thoughts. Let me take a look again. Need more time on that one...


Thank you !!

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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Freddi » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:37 am

Hello Sil,
Noticed that you didn't debate or told if you thought my views were right or wrong or if you agree or disagree with them. Interesting.
That’s right, I don’t agree or disagree. Debating is not the point of this exchange. I’m interested in what’s actually happening, what we can check. Debating, agreeing, disagreeing is just more mind fodder.
I don't see confusion, confusion is just that i don't seem to be "getting" it. Something is telling me that I don't get it but I don't get what is to be gotten in the first place. Maybe there's nothing to be get ? Stuck in thoughts again. Thoughts are thoughts.
You see how quickly thoughts claim the answer? The simple answer is ‘I don’t see confusion’, then comes a BUT … and more thought stuff ;-)
And yes, how do you KNOW you’re not getting it if you don’t know what’s to be got?
Ok so I feel these things contraction, unease, cramp in stomach. And then it creates a feeling. And I'm afraid of it. Want to get rid of it. Hum that's odd. Who is afraid ? Who wants to run away, hide under the covers ? Disappear?
Hum that's odd, what is this repulsive stuff that pushes me ???
Good investigation into sensations and their labelling here, Sil.
Could it be that the body does not enjoy these sensations and throws up a reaction? If so, is it allowed to?
Is it ok if it resists the lack of comfort?
Look into the sensation again, dive into it, explore it, with curiosity. Is the resistance allowed just to be there, without itself being resisted? Is it saying something?
There must be something aware of that stuff (…) There must be a reason for suffering no ?
What is it that is asking these questions, that needs to fill the gap?
Is that the path or not the path ? My thoughts about the path ? Just want reassurance that the path is the path and that's I'm not lost, following a red herring...
There is no red herring ;-) There is no path, no one to be lost ;-)
It takes only one simple, honest look. One that will distinguish what is happening from what is not happening. It really is that simple, Sil.
Ok I'm there. I see stuff I hear stuff I feel stuff. Or rather images are experienced/seen, sounds are heard, feeling are there in the heart - contact with the keyboard is real. My heart is throbbing, beating my mouth is dry. Lots of confusion. Thoughts flying all over. Hands trembling a little.
There must be something aware of that stuff. I don't see it though. What is it ? I don't know !!
What if there was no thing aware of all this? Could it be? Don't think it, check it!
Would it be ok if a look into actual experience showed you something so obvious, but hidden in plain sight, something that had always been the case?
Go into any sensation coming up when considering this, like you enter a cave and light a torch in it.
What if there never was/is/will be a Sil in charge of ‘her life’? What if all was happening on automatic, with no one at the helm? Describe what comes up when you read these words?

Thank you!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Silatigi
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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Silatigi » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Hey Fred,

So in fact I'm a guy, Silatigi is more a reference as a "private joke" to the Silatigi of the "contes initiatiques" full of symbols and layers of meaning by Hampate Ba.
http://www.webpulaaku.net/defte/ahb/kai ... -2021.html
http://www.webpulaaku.net/defte/ahb/kai ... rview.html

"DW: So it could be said that I lack no information. When I read the Kaydara, all the details are there.
Bâ: All the details are there.
DW: Nothing is hidden.
BA: Nothing is hidden from you. Nothing is hidden, nothing is apparent. You will know only what you are destined to know."

Now I realize is simply another tale to feed the mind with stories, thoughts and meaning. Lacanian's Symbolic. They may be useful but these are that : thought, generating images (Lacan's Imaginary) and meaning. Whether Kabbalah, Sufism, Buddhism, Hinduism... Symbols, pointers to an internal reality. That the one I have to look at.

Ok I stop now. Let me come back to what's what, ie to what's important here (the Real in Lacan's terms)

ahaha another symbolism in the symbolism. I can see it. "I can see you Mara"

Debating, agreeing, disagreeing is just more mind fodder.
ahaha I can see that indeed :).
Papancca (proliferation of thoughts) all over the place.
And yes, how do you KNOW you’re not getting it if you don’t know what’s to be got?
Well spotted !! That's a killer :).
Yep how can I KNOW that I know I don't know. The known unknown. Just not logically possible here. So funny indeed ! Ahaah so that's how doubt works ? Doubt is simply a fabrication that tells me stuff should be otherwise when there is no reason why they *should* be otherwise. Who is saying it should be otherwise ? Why giving in into this story ? Why submitting to Mr Invisible telling me what should be ? A complete joke ahahahah. I can't believe it. I am dying with laughter right now.



Could it be that the body does not enjoy these sensations and throws up a reaction? If so, is it allowed to?
Whaou ! Ahaha another should be or should not be. It is what it is. So that's the opening? Just letting things be?
Is it ok if it resists the lack of comfort?
That's the KEY question. Thanks so much for underlining that one!!

Indeed. Is it ok ? Is it ok ? Et pourquoi pas ???!!!! (let's be daring, let's accept it this resistance, it's bloody ALIVE !!) And Why NOT indeed ? Why should it not be ok to be what it is ? No reason really apart from a thought, a comparison with dead stuff from the past, from memory !! Memory is dead stuff. What's now is real. I can feel it. I can see it.
It is what it is. And it's already gone ahahahah. And new stuff is coming up. And disappearing again !!
Look into the sensation again, dive into it, explore it, with curiosity. Is the resistance allowed just to be there, without itself being resisted? Is it saying something?
Let me look again. That the key. Let is be. "Let it come, let it go". Donc je dois laisser tous les elements de cet univers interieur aller et venir. aller et venir. aller et venir. Les laisser etre ce qu'ils sont. Parce qu'autrement autrement rien du tout, juste d'autres pensees que je peux laisser etre et repartir. Donc meme cette resistance elle meme fait partie du meme jeu. Il n'y a rien donc. La resistance elle meme est sans substance ou plutot juste un autre element du decor interieur. Je veux dire la resistance est REELLE AUSSI. Mais c'est une pensee. Juste une pensee.
Pas besoin de s'enerver, pas besoin de se sentir down. Meme la sensation d'etre down est REELLE, elle est ce qu'elle est. Meme chose, si je me sens bien. Genre en ce moment c'est une explosion. C'est les pensees les pensees sont engendrees par les sensations les sensations sont engendree par des pensees. Et elles touchent le corps aussi.
Donc pas de separation entre pensees, emotion et sensation. C'est un tout. C'est ce que c'est maintenant mais ce n'est pas ce que ca sera plus tard. Plus tard pas important. Hier, c'est mort. Du bois mort. Sans importance.
What is it that is asking these questions, that needs to fill the gap?
Nothing, just thoughts. Just thoughts thinking. Coming and going and disapearing ahahah.

One that will distinguish what is happening from what is not happening. It really is that simple, Sil.
I see what's happening. So it's happening. And then. It's happening again. And then. Something else unfolds. Does it matter? No. No need to make lots of fuss about it then. No need to conceptualize.
It is what it is. And it is all there is ? Yes, even this question is part of it.
Is there anything outside of it ? Is there ? Is it needed to have to be something ? No. Why would it be ?

What if there was no thing aware of all this? Could it be? Don't think it, check it!
Yep. There is what there is. And that's all there is.
Would it be ok if a look into actual experience showed you something so obvious, but hidden in plain sight, something that had always been the case?
It is what it is. And even when I thought it was not it, it still was. but now it's just a memory of what was. And now is already lost. So I just see what's what. Now. The future ? A thought. A real thought about something not there yet, some keystroke on a computer screen that will appear in a few minutes.
Go into any sensation coming up when considering this, like you enter a cave and light a torch in it.
What if there never was/is/will be a Sil in charge of ‘her life’? What if all was happening on automatic, with no one at the helm? Describe what comes up when you read these words?
It's just hilarious. What comes up is warmth in the heart and throat and sensation of warmth throbbing in the arms and fingers and belly and lightness and fun ahah !

Thanks !!

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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Freddi » Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:09 pm

Hi Sil, wow there’s some change in the tone of your last post. Do I sense something shifting here?
Yep how can I KNOW that I know I don't know. The known unknown. Just not logically possible here. So funny indeed ! Ahaah so that's how doubt works ? Doubt is simply a fabrication that tells me stuff should be otherwise when there is no reason why they *should* be otherwise. Who is saying it should be otherwise ? Why giving in into this story ? Why submitting to Mr Invisible telling me what should be ? A complete joke ahahahah. I can't believe it. I am dying with laughter right now.
Nice! Yep, this circular thinking is insane, isn’t it? ;-)
Whaou ! Ahaha another should be or should not be. It is what it is. So that's the opening? Just letting things be?
Same question to Number One, you tell me. You lead this investigation.
So, what comes up when you drop into the question ‘what’s the opening, letting things be’?
Indeed. Is it ok ? Is it ok ? Et pourquoi pas ???!!!! (let's be daring, let's accept it this resistance, it's bloody ALIVE !!) And Why NOT indeed ? Why should it not be ok to be what it is ? No reason really apart from a thought, a comparison with dead stuff from the past, from memory !! Memory is dead stuff. What's now is real. I can feel it. I can see it.
It is what it is. And it's already gone ahahahah. And new stuff is coming up. And disappearing again !!
I’m reading a lot of clarity here. Yes, thought compares, divides, separates, distinguishes, argues, debates. That is its job. Is it ok if it continues just as it has always done, while at the same time seen through as not actually what’s happening, right here and now?
Pas besoin de s'enerver, pas besoin de se sentir down. Meme la sensation d'etre down est REELLE, elle est ce qu'elle est. Meme chose, si je me sens bien. Genre en ce moment c'est une explosion.
Yes! Il n’y a que ce qui est, ici et maintenant, "ça", le reste est projection mentale! There is only THIS. Only thought claims an alternative to THIS, but can there ever be an alternative? Have you ever experienced an alternative to this, to what is, be it joy, bliss, resistance, pain, whatever is showing up?
Fred: What is it that is asking these questions, that needs to fill the gap?
Sil: Nothing, just thoughts. Just thoughts thinking.
Can a thought think? Can it decide anything?
Look at thoughts in direct experience, like you’re observing birds flying by. Don’t get involved in their content, that’s not what is.
Can you stop them? Can you choose the next one? Can you have only positive thoughts? If so, what do you see that could select, discriminate?
Can you see/feel/hear/taste a thinker?


It is what it is. And it is all there is ? Yes, even this question is part of it.
Is there anything outside of it ? Is there ? Is it needed to have to be something ? No. Why would it be ?
Fred: What if there was no thing aware of all this? Could it be? Don't think it, check it!
Sil: Yep. There is what there is. And that's all there is.
Beautiful, thank you!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Silatigi » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:31 am

Hey Fred,

Thanks a bunch for digging further on these!
Yep, this circular thinking is insane, isn’t it? ;-)
It's like something that want something to go wrong or be different to what is.

So what comes up when you drop into the question ‘what’s the opening, letting things be’?
What comes up ? It's just a tought.
Yes, thought compares, divides, separates, distinguishes, argues, debates. That is its job. Is it ok if it continues just as it has always done, while at the same time seen through as not actually what’s happening, right here and now?
In fact the thought IS REALLY happening right here right now. But the content is not, not necessarily pointing toward what is now. The content is the content.
Just signifiers. Only pointing towards experience some time and some times not.
There is only THIS. Only thought claims an alternative to THIS, but can there ever be an alternative? Have you ever experienced an alternative to this, to what is, be it joy, bliss, resistance, pain, whatever is showing up?
Thoughts are part of THIS, they are also THIS. No alternative. There is nothing outside of THIS. And THIS is changing constantly. Even when I'm lost in thoughts it's still inside the system. It's just that I'm not attentive to it.
Can a thought think? Can it decide anything?
Look at thoughts in direct experience, like you’re observing birds flying by. Don’t get involved in their content, that’s not what is.
A thought is a thought. It just appears, impacts the system, and disapears.
Impact the system in the sense of triggering feelings, body sensation and vice versa ie (is conditionned by the system) too of course in some kind of infinite loop.

Agreed the content which is displayed not what IS. What IS is all this ALIVE/LIVING experience. Including the content of thoughts, that's also REAL, it exists here and now so why excluding it ! Just not to be BELIEVED.

I see red, red id REAL, I don't have to believe it. Red is red, a tought content is a tought content.

Can you stop them? Can you choose the next one? Can you have only positive thoughts? If so, what do you see that could select, discriminate?
Can't stop them.

Can cultivate automatic/robotic habits of thoughts to change my reactions to stuff (say an insect on the floor, before cultivating Metta killing it with no hesitation after Metta cultivating having good wishing thought for the insect)

Still too robotic /inhuman though, reaction to habits. Better if I can see THIS then no need to be slave to automatic reaction (either positive or negative) but will try to respond in the moment with what comes. And if nothing comes, that's not a problem either.

Whether positive or negative thoughts are thoughts feelings are feelings so why would I want positive thoughts ? Yes for the pleasant sensations. Not a masochist. But if negative thoughts and feeling pops up then these are THIS and ALIVE now so full acceptance *should* be the answer.

Hum not sure if another trap of thoughts here. I should not have shoulds that's another loop. Trapped again.

Arg. Close but not entirely there yet. Falling back.

Looking again looks like thoughts always like to come up with a theory of how things work. But there is THIS. I stayed with it as much as I could yesterday. Exploring the here and now, the LIVING. Was good. No idle thoughts.

Obsessing about getting it. Have I got it. That the joke, there's nothing to get. It;s already there in the ordinary now.

Can you see/feel/hear/taste a thinker?
No thinkers, just thoughts.


I felt I was closer yesterday but falling back. Hilarious, another comparison. Maya is a tough one !! Even though Maya is simply me meing ahah

Thanks !

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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Freddi » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:37 pm

Hi Sil,

Thanks for your answers, let’s keep digging … ;-)
Even when I'm lost in thoughts it's still inside the system. It's just that I'm not attentive to it.
Stop, breathe and look. Come back to what’s here, what is directly experienced.
Do you see an ‘I’ that can be lost in thought? Can you touch an ‘I’ that can claim to be attentive or not?
A thought is a thought. It just appears, impacts the system, and disapears.
Impact the system in the sense of triggering feelings, body sensation and vice versa ie (is conditionned by the system) too of course in some kind of infinite loop.
OK let’s look into this idea of ‘impacting’.
LOOK, in actual experience, not into what is portrayed by thought. You see a thought and its content? You feel a sensation? Do you see/experience a cause and effect link between the two? Or is that imagined, like a joining of the dots? Is the ‘impacting’ effect tangible, verifiable in experience?
Including the content of thoughts, that's also REAL, it exists here and now so why excluding it ! Just not to be BELIEVED.
In what way is the content real? Do you mean that it is directly experienced, or that it accurately represents reality? Or? Let me know what comes up.
Think about last night’s dinner. Can you taste it? Can you see it? Can you smell it? Is the meal in front of you?
I see red, red id REAL, I don't have to believe it. Red is red, a tought content is a tought content.
Take a piece of paper, write the word R-E-D, say the sound ‘red’. Now look at something ‘red'.
Are the string of letters and the sound a fair representation of what the experience actually is?
Can cultivate automatic/robotic habits of thoughts to change my reactions to stuff
Who or what can cultivate a certain reaction to stuff? Is there some entity there that can claim these things, like squashing or not squashing an insect? Or is there just squashing or not squashing, then a thought claiming credit or guilt for a ‘someone’?

A lot to consider here. Take your time with it all. No rush.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Silatigi
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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Silatigi » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:08 pm

Hi Fred,

Thanks for the double check
Will take the time to properly answer tomorrow or later tonight depending on availability.
Have a great evening !

Cheers
Sil

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Freddi
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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Freddi » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:34 pm

Of course, Sil, take all the time needed, and thanks for letting me know!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Silatigi
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Re: Need to be pushed over the edge

Postby Silatigi » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:16 pm

Hi Fred,

Ok that's the toughest of the toughest. Still hitting a brick wall. Lots of fear and panic generated.
Stop, breathe and look. Come back to what’s here, what is directly experienced.
Do you see an ‘I’ that can be lost in thought? Can you touch an ‘I’ that can claim to be attentive or not?
Can't see or touch such a thing. Direct experience is either right here right now or not right here right now.
Ie sometimes there is direct experience of sensations (hearing, touching, seeing...) and sometimes it kind of "goes away" as if the "attention" went lost in some kind of daydreaming/knock out. And then suddenlty it's back it's there, ie the sensations are experienced NOW.

When feeling tone is unpleasant (headache/hangover/super tired...you name it), want to get away from it => lost in daydream to escape THIS ie walking the path is painful wants to step out of it.
When feeling tone is pleasant (feeling one with the universe, so happy, enjoying each moment), wants it to stay like that => lost in the content of the direct experience. Thinking that I got it and that everything is so intense and beautiful and that I am a stream enterer. What a bloody joke.

Can you touch an ‘I’ that can claim to be attentive or not?
Can't touch this I but can say that sometimes "awareness" is lost, sometimes it's here.
When it's lost it's lost in the sense that there is no knowing that it's lost. Only when coming back to THIS do I know that I got lost in the "fantasy land" of thoughts. But there were no "I". Never any "I". Neither when sensations (hearing, touching, seeing, thinking) are experienced in the NOW or when the awarness gets absorbed god know where (this kind of loosing "me" daydreaming). Quite scary stuff. Difficult to say where stuff are. What is what.
OK let’s look into this idea of ‘impacting’.
LOOK, in actual experience, not into what is portrayed by thought.
You see a thought and its content? You feel a sensation? Do you see/experience a cause and effect link between the two? Or is that imagined, like a joining of the dots? Is the ‘impacting’ effect tangible, verifiable in experience?
I can see there is a difference is reaction to the direct experience of "seeing insect" by comparing it to the reaction that was triggered 2 years ago. The perception and the conditioning has changed. Ie the "a posteriori" filtering of the direct experience has changed.

Let me answer your questions one by one, I feel these are very important to work through, the fear I feel tells me I need to go forward and jump. That's scary though. Feeling of contraction in stomachs informs me about fear.
You see a thought and its content?
Yes thought is experienced directly. I can see the content. Words, letters, sounds, images.
You feel a sensation?
Sensation is felt in direct experience. Like partially in the "body"(heat/tension/resistance or lightness/tingling)/partially in the "mind"(feeling tone light, happy, warm, down, sad) if such a distinction is feasible.
Do you see/experience a cause and effect link between the two?
That's the KEY question at that stage !!!
Correlation v/s cause/effect.
That's scary.

This triggers more questions. A wind of panic inside.
Question about control. Is there anybody here, inside that can control anything at any point !!!???
Fear. Strong fear. Sensation of losing it.
Is there any control in the NOW ?
Is this tension this selfing needed ?

The "I" is felt as the tension behind the eyes. The "I" is of course not that but that's its effect to tense the body to tense the mind. To want to control.

That's scary though because if there is no one in control then anything is possible. Why would I do the "right" thing ?
What if there is no "I" to do the thing and no thing to be done. So all actions would be the same.

But then nothing make sense !!! Why do we do what we do ? "I" stick to pleasant, run away get angry with unpleasant.

If I stay with the unpleasant then the unpleasant "unpleasants" without more tension added with angry movement to get rid of it.
If I do not give in to the pleasant then the pleasant "pleasants" without more tension toward getting more added.

And what if whatever "I" try to do doesn't make a bloody different to the pleasant and the unpleasant ?

So there's unpleasant for a moment then it becomes pleasant and then unpleasant again.

What "I" believe "I" do/control and whatnot, it doesn't change anything to what it NOW, to THIS.

So is it about freeing the mind from the "I" some actions appear more skillful than other in untangling the knots ??

Need to let things be.

But then how do I get lost ?
Or is that imagined, like a joining of the dots?
No correlation or cause effect in THIS. THIS is just THIS.


In what way is the content real? Do you mean that it is directly experienced, or that it accurately represents reality? Or? Let me know what comes up.
The content is real as content. Not as what it points to (cf next question) but as thought. The content is experienced NOW as a thought-image. It is not the REAL but it is REAL as a mental object in the direct experience of THIS.
Think about last night’s dinner. Can you taste it? Can you see it? Can you smell it? Is the meal in front of you?
I can have a vague memory of it. But it's more dead content. It's not ALIVE. Just a very "blurry discolored" sensation.
Take a piece of paper, write the word R-E-D, say the sound ‘red’. Now look at something ‘red'.
Are the string of letters and the sound a fair representation of what the experience actually is?
No the word is just a pointer. But the letters R-E-D and the sound is experienced as a REAL thought.

Who or what can cultivate a certain reaction to stuff? Is there some entity there that can claim these things, like squashing or not squashing an insect? Or is there just squashing or not squashing, then a thought claiming credit or guilt for a ‘someone’?
There are differences. Automatic response is different. There is something that is changed. Before reaction was different than After. It's not about ownership more about "constater" that the reaction has changed. It really has.
Not about credit or guilt. Just about change in perception.


I'm still stuck, I see there's nothing there that everything is inside the same THIS, but can't let go don't know how to let go. How to see properly to let go ?

Now trying to stay in THIS as much as I can whatever THIS send me at this moment. Accepting what is NOW because it's the only REAL. Sometimes painful sometimes joyfull. But REAL. That's the solution "I" see and "I" follow for the moment.

Thanks !


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