Deepening into peace

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Bexter
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Deepening into peace

Postby Bexter » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:25 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

I heard about this site from a friend, who found it very helpful, so I figured it's worth trying.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

There are already experiences of freedom from the self. There is peace with the present experience whenever it's looked for. It's not always looked for, though, so the desire that is here is to increase the amount of time in that peace. Being less clouded.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

I have been doing some direct pointing as a part of a 17 week intensive course (the Finders Course 6) with the "greatest hits" of enlightenment. Direct pointing was one method, and we spent a week with this. I listened a bit to Fred Davis, but mostly I just sat and asked the question of who I am, over and over, questioning every answer that came up with "If that wasn't there, would I not exist?"
It was helpful and released a lot of "my struggle", as I realized that everything just came and went, and there was no self to get invested in, no self to strive. Striving could happen, but it wasn't "mine". If my mind had been wandering, that was an event as good as mind being focused on the meditation object.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

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ElPortal
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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby ElPortal » Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:40 am

HI there and welcome to LU. Thanks for being patient for a response.

1. So what should be different from the way it is now? Anything? Please let me know what comes up, not in 'correct answers' but from the heart.

2. What evidence to you have experientially of a separate individual there reading these words, experiencing life right now?

Please answer these questions honestly, and we'll see whether I can accompany you.

Cheers

Mark

PS what would you like me to call you?
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Bexter
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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby Bexter » Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:40 pm

Hi Mark, and than you so much for responding! You can call me by my name, Rebecka.
1. So what should be different from the way it is now? Anything? Please let me know what comes up, not in 'correct answers' but from the heart.
Part of me says "nothing", when that question is asked, but there is another part as well. There is a part in me right now that still wants a ”better” experience. I can then let that resisting part be there, be part of the now, and I can be fully ok with that part as well as everything else in the current experience, returning to the sense that “nothing is wrong, nothing should be different, and nothing could be different, because nothing is different”. To the extent that there is resistance to the now, that is part of the now as well, and can be embraced by acceptance and surrender to what is.
2. What evidence to you have experientially of a separate individual there reading these words, experiencing life right now?
There is a sense that there is a separate individual here, an experiencer. Someone “home”, someone experiencing. This is harder to break free from, to take a step away from…

I’m not my body or sensory input - that is fairly easy for me to see. I do identify with my thoughts and ideas repeatedly, but can also see that and drop it. Who’s paying attention to this and dropping it? There is an idea of a self that’s dropping identification with all of this. But that’s just an idea.

However, I am not initiating anything, not even the identifying or un-identifying; it could all be – or rather is – done without any assistance from me. Yet here I am experiencing the whole thing!

Maybe this experiencer in fact also is just and idea or content in the experience, an integrated processes with cause and effect? If that’s the case, it’s not easily accessible or clear for me at this current moment, or in most moments. Right now the idea that the experiencer is just a concept/experience/process is just a thought to me, not my actual experience.

Next logical question would be: How do I experience the experiencer…? I have an idea of it being like a receptor, where life “lands” and is registered. But I realize that in my direct experience there is only the experience, not anything apart from it. How could there be anything else?

…Which means that the experiencer is just a conclusion – the conclusion that there has to be someone experiencing if there is experience. Why is it experienced otherwise? But that’s a thought – even a core belief – but not direct experience. Not proof!

Letting this intellectual insight sink in, being tested experientially.

No proof for anything apart from experience in my experience! (Of course!!) And included in that experience, sometimes, there is the convincing conclusion/belief/though/idea that there then should/has to be someone experiencing this, or it wouldn’t be an experience. How odd! And how truly that conclusion was felt.

I’m feeling a bit sheepish…

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby ElPortal » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:35 pm

Hi Rebecka,

Before we go further let's just clear up some basic housework around having a dialogue here:-

A few quick guidelines: look to post regularly (at least every other day) or post to say if a break is needed. Please set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together. I am not here to teach or coach you, I will ask questions: your agreement is to LOOK, and to answer from firsthand direct experience in this moment, rather than from intellectually trying to work anything out. OK?

If you could confirm that you have read the LU disclaimer, here: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
and the article on direct experience, here: http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/
and that you would still like me to guide you - then we shall continue!

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby Bexter » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:08 pm

Hi Mark,

I had read the disclaimer before, but hadn't seen the article on direct experience. I've read it now, though, and it seems to describe what I discovered while writing the last post!

I'm wondering if I did something wrong, since you're giving me the directions now? I did try to report my direct experience, but perhaps I associated away from the core question too much?

All the best,
Rebecka


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ElPortal
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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby ElPortal » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:23 am

Hi Rebecka,

Thanks for your reply. No, nothing wron.

1. a) Now looking at that first reply, was it from thinking or from first-hand actual experience?
b) The phrase 'the now' appears a lot. This carries the feel of a learnt jargon phrase? Where/who does it come from? I am asking you to reply honestly from your own now experience.
c) When you write 'part of me says', are there two yous in there?

2. As an exercise in direct experience, please tell me what is coming up right now as you read these words: all the sensorial reactions which come up in all the senses. Notice also any thoughts, but write those as 'the thought that (this)', 'the thought that (that)'. Please give me your list.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby Bexter » Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:49 pm

Hi Mark,

Good, glad I’m “doing it right”, as I found it very helpful to write the post. ☺
Now looking at that first reply, was it from thinking or from first-hand actual experience?
With “first reply”, I assume you mean the reply to the first question? It was definitely first hand experience as I was writing. However it was a process over perhaps five to ten minutes.
The phrase 'the now' appears a lot. This carries the feel of a learnt jargon phrase? Where/who does it come from? I am asking you to reply honestly from your own now experience.
I wasn’t aware of it at the time, but when I think about it, my guess is that I was defaulting to that wording after recently having (re-)read Eckart Tolle’s book “The Power of the Now”.

In my experience the words I’m using are often insufficient and flawed, and to a greater or lesser extent inherited from someone else, i.e. learned. They do express my own now experience, but I can see that I can get even more intimate with it, if I don’t easily default to words that are already defined by someone else. I can see that it’s a shortcut, which I’m better off abstaining from as much as I can in this context.
When you write 'part of me says', are there two yous in there?
No, there is not. There were two directions in experience, two patterns. First the thought “Nothing”, or an expression acceptance. This was identified with and it there was a pleasant feeling of peace. The resistance was triggered, briefly identified with, and then accepted as part of the experience.
As an exercise in direct experience, please tell me what is coming up right now as you read these words: all the sensorial reactions which come up in all the senses. Notice also any thoughts, but write those as 'the thought that (this)', 'the thought that (that)'. Please give me your list.
Thoughts: That’s a lot of stuff to be aware of. - Just try - Try what? What is the task? - I’ll just register the sensorial reactions.

Awareness in body, aliveness, pressures

Thought: I’m scanning my body. Is that right?

Hearing patterns

Visual memory of Mozarts music yesterday in the coach.

Hearing sound patterns
Thought; Identifying as car. Thinking of sunshine outside. Remembering noting-exercises I’ve done before.

Pressure. Cold. Spaceousness.

Thought; This feels like an experiencer, a space for the experience.

Experience goes back and forth between flowing patterns, and flickering bits of information. That’s the closest I can describe it right now.

There is the thought that flickering primarily happens when I focus on everything at once, whereas the flowing pattern is more when I follow one or few senses, or parts of one sense, bits that I tend to “categorize” or cluster.

More descriptions: Focus on the flickering bits I would describe as hypnotic. The experience of time is weak or absent, and thought is not there, it’s like there is not enough room, not enough bits to make up a thought or a concept. Just a sense of reality impacting, hitting experience. Words are flawed as I’m trying to describe this.

I’m thinking that as I’m describing it, it’s all thoughts, from memory. I am trying to put into words something that is wordless. That, too, is a thought. When I am just experiencing I can’t write at the same time.

Thought: Did I do it right? I forgot reporting vision. Seeing. It was there too, but I didn’t report it.

Focus shifted to seeing. I get lost. Space. Hearing comes in too. Patterns. Flickering. Thoughts are as patterns, and almost feel physical as time shrinks.

Thoughts: I wonder if this can be understood when Mark reads it. It’s really messy and unsorted. Perhaps I can’t report right. I should have read how others did it. No, I don’t want to, because I just want to report what it’s like for me. I’m hesitant.

Focus shifted to body sensations. Noticing slight physical pressure.

All right. I’m going to wrap it up there Mark. Feeling a bit disoriented and a loss of control. Feedback is most welcome!

All the best,
Rebecka

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby ElPortal » Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:45 am

HI Rebecka and thanks for that reply.

When I asked about your first reply I was referring to your post of 10th March. There seemed to be quite a lot in there that was a thought response. eg 'part of me says'. Was that interpretation an experience or a mental processing of what was experienced?

Many thanks for your report on 'what is coming up right now':-
Thoughts: That’s a lot of stuff to be aware of. - Just try - Try what? What is the task? - I’ll just register the sensorial reactions.
Awareness in body, aliveness, pressures
Thought: I’m scanning my body. Is that right?
Hearing patterns
Visual memory of Mozarts music yesterday in the coach.
Hearing sound patterns
Thought; Identifying as car. Thinking of sunshine outside. Remembering noting-exercises I’ve done before.
Pressure. Cold. Spaceousness
Thought; This feels like an experiencer, a space for the experience.
Experience goes back and forth between flowing patterns, and flickering bits of information. That’s the closest I can describe it right now.
There is the thought that flickering primarily happens when I focus on everything at once, whereas the flowing pattern is more when I follow one or few senses, or parts of one sense, bits that I tend to “categorize” or cluster.
More descriptions: Focus on the flickering bits I would describe as hypnotic. The experience of time is weak or absent, and thought is not there, it’s like there is not enough room, not enough bits to make up a thought or a concept. Just a sense of reality impacting, hitting experience. Words are flawed as I’m trying to describe this.
I’m thinking that as I’m describing it, it’s all thoughts, from memory. I am trying to put into words something that is wordless. That, too, is a thought. When I am just experiencing I can’t write at the same time.
Thought: Did I do it right? I forgot reporting vision. Seeing. It was there too, but I didn’t report it.
Focus shifted to seeing. I get lost. Space. Hearing comes in too. Patterns. Flickering. Thoughts are as patterns, and almost feel physical as time shrinks.
Thoughts: I wonder if this can be understood when Mark reads it. It’s really messy and unsorted. Perhaps I can’t report right. I should have read how others did it. No, I don’t want to, because I just want to report what it’s like for me. I’m hesitant.
Focus shifted to body sensations. Noticing slight physical pressure.
All right. I’m going to wrap it up there Mark. Feeling a bit disoriented and a loss of control. Feedback is most welcome!
Hehe, no need to read how others did it! This is all about your authentic experience in this moment, nobody else's. And you can't go wrong in your responses. However I am going to ask you to be as succinct as possible when you write. Is that ok?

So we are going to be looking at two types of experience: the first is all that is sensed with the senses in real time first-hand experience. After these we will add the label (E). The second is all that is thought, including assumptions, interpretations, commentary, speculation, explanations, labels and descriptions, which we will follow with the label (T).

Please go through your list of what happened and after each line or even phrase within the line add either (T) or (E).
Or if you prefer you can sit again for 2 minutes, noticing and listing all the experiences and thoughts, and then apply that labels to that list instead.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby Bexter » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:58 pm

I’m finding it really difficult to know what you’re asking for, Mark. I am so confused. I feel like we don't understand each other, and I apologize if my tone seems despairing. I still want to do this, especially since I got so much out of writing that 10/3 post. So bear with me!
There seemed to be quite a lot in there that was a thought response. eg 'part of me says'. Was that interpretation an experience or a mental processing of what was experienced?
A very processed mental thought, several steps away from the original experience I had. It was not something I thought out from stuff I've read though, but described my own experience. I could process and describe that experience in other ways, as well (as I tried to do in my last post).

I would say all I write is mental processing, in an absolute sense. Pragmatically, though, it depends on where to "draw the line" between experience and mental processing. I feel at a loss here, and think I would like an example or something of what you mean.

How close to the direct experience should I be in my answers? Just trying to put words to it is a step away, a translation into a level of thought. I can see that I need to do this for us to have this conversation, but at the same time, as soon as I verbalize it, everything is (T), since it’s all labels.

This is a description of how I experience how direct experience move into the mental processing levels:

The closest I can get to a description of my direct experience, least processed and translated into language would be: “Flickering and flowing”. Flickering being the experience, when focus is tightly on one moment, and flowing comes when there is a more zoomed out view. The flowing is a pattern of the small flickering.

One step more translated into concepts would be defining that what’s flickering and flowing, which is hearing, seeing, sensing, and thinking. They are also often experienced as intertwining a bit at this level.

To describe my experience of the flowing: It’s noticing the shifting intensities of the flickering vibrations in the experience. It reminds me of musical patterns, but most often it’s more chaotic. This takes a step away from the present moment, since it demands the scope of seconds.

Also, there are different patterns that are naturally clustered, since they usually come together. The sound of the car outside is categorized as separate from the sun in my eyes. Even patterns within the same sense get separated into different “things”. That is, for example, the pressure of the keyboard keys on the fingers gets separated from the headache. Most often, there is a forgetting that this separation is a construct, a later happening within what from the beginning (and in reality still) is a unified experience.

In daily life what dominates my experience, and what’s easy to slip into, is continuously noticing the interpreted meanings of these patterns. Example: The vibrations turn into a flow, which is categorized as hearing, which is then split into a smaller category within hearing, and finally identified as “a car”.

It goes on and on, as ideas and beliefs build up the "reality" I live in.This is where I am most of the time, in my built up reality, even though the direct experience is usually available for me if I look.
I am going to ask you to be as succinct as possible when you write. Is that ok?

So we are going to be looking at two types of experience: the first is all that is sensed with the senses in real time first-hand experience. After these we will add the label (E). The second is all that is thought, including assumptions, interpretations, commentary, speculation, explanations, labels and descriptions, which we will follow with the label (T).
(Note: Being succinct becomes, to me, a request for more processing of the experience, categorizing and summarizing. The report of the “raw” experience is most fragmented, confusing to read and longwinded.)

If anything could be called closer to (E), as I understand it, in the last fragment it would be:
Awareness, aliveness, pressures, hearing patterns. Cold. Spaceousness. Flowing patterns, flickering bits of information

All of this is, of course, still labels, and in that sense (T).

(T) would be all the rest, that is everything marked with “Thoughts” (such as “I’m scanning my body. Is that right?”), or the pieces with descriptions (such as “There is the thought that flickering primarily happens when I focus on everything at once, whereas the flowing pattern is more when I follow one or few senses, or parts of one sense, bits that I tend to “categorize” or cluster.“)

All the best,
Rebecka

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby ElPortal » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:27 am

Hi Rebecka,

Great! Thanks for that response.
How close to the direct experience should I be in my answers? Just trying to put words to it is a step away, a translation into a level of thought. I can see that I need to do this for us to have this conversation, but at the same time, as soon as I verbalize it, everything is (T), since it’s all labels.
Yes, this is quite right: by writing back and forth (T) has to be used in the basic labelling and descriptions. This has to be allowed of course. Also, sometimes by referring to something which happened, we are referring to something slightly in the past, so in a sense stepping into thought-world to do that too, but we call up the memory into the present experience (E) and then look at that, ok?

So, as an exercise, I would like you now to sit for just two minutes quietly, and make another list (as succicnt as possible) of all that is sensed and thought, noticing ALL the senses eg sight, hearing, touch, smell/taste, balance - and any others that can be found, as well as any thoughts (but again write down the thoughts as: 'the thought that *this*', 'the thought that *that*' etc etc. Once the two minutes are up and you have your list, then after each item add the label either (E) or (T) and send me your list.

No worries, this is going just great.

In all your responses, don't forget to notice and note down to me any immediate sensations which come up, eg 'a tight feeling in the chest' with an explanation of 'frustration', eg 'a calm feeling, a looosening around the eyes' etc ok?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby Bexter » Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:20 am

Great, Mark, thanks for the instructions. I feel a bit more clear on what I am to do. Here is my list:

Hearing ticking (E). Feeling impact on my fingers from the keyboard (E). Feeling tension in shoulder (E). Intention to relax(E). Adjusting position (E: sensations, T: what's going on). Feeling pressure in abdomen (E). Hearing humming (E) from fridge (T). Thinking that this would be boring to read (T). Sighing (sensing pressures in abdomen and air flow in nose, throat; E). Feeling an itch on the back of my head (E). Pressures shifts (E) as I’m adjusting my position (T). Thinking that it feels like there is a "doer", but there isn't (T). Itch (E). Leg stretch (E). Thought that I’m doing this well (T). Opposing thought, that it’s probably “wrong”(T). A bit of sadness, sensed primarily as an interplay in my face tingling and throat constricting and heating up, as well as a stinging in the nose (E). Sensing the cool of the eyes watering a bit (E). Thinking that I’ll just let it be, as is (T). Tasting sweetness in my mouth (E) from an apple (T).

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby ElPortal » Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:39 am

Hi Rebacka

Nice work.
Thought that I’m doing this well (T)
Correct!! :-)

1. So now, please go through any phrase with 'I' 'my' and rewrite them those words taken out (eg placed by 'this' or rephrase). List those down and tell me, when you ponder, whether they feel different? Do they feel MORE real, or LESS real?

2. Now when you consider this statement:-
Thinking that it feels like there is a "doer", but there isn't (T)

This is a thought, isn't it. But are its claims correct? a) Is it the feeling of a doer or the thought of a doer? b) Look deeply please and answer by describing 'what is the feeling of a 'doer'? c) 'But there isn't a "doer"'? Is this a feeling or a mental conclusion (T)?

Let me know what comes up when you consider these points honestly. Again, a reminder also to report from the spontaneous sensations which come up as you read the questions, and consider the exercises.

We're going to approach this by 'looking', not by trying to work it out mentally, ok?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby ElPortal » Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:40 am

oops, sorry for the typo on your name, Rebecka.

x

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby Bexter » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:29 pm

Thanks for your reply, Mark!
1. So now, please go through any phrase with 'I' 'my' and rewrite them those words taken out (eg placed by 'this' or rephrase). List those down and tell me, when you ponder, whether they feel different? Do they feel MORE real, or LESS real?
There is a relief to say “this head” instead of “my head”, “position” instead of “my position”, and “this face and throat”, instead of “my face and throat”. There is increased relaxation in my body. This body, I mean! (E and T) There is a wave of eagerness, alertness, aliveness (E) over this, interpreted as an impulse to explore this more (E). An intellectual fascination is also triggered, with a thought that language can be so powerful, with such a little word (T). Remembrance that this experience has been had before (T).

“I’m doing this well” → “Judgment is made that this is being done well”
“I’ll just let it be” → “There is an arising intention of letting things be as they are”
This also gives some sense of wellbeing (E), but not as strong (E&T). I was fairly aware that “this is just thoughts” to begin with (T), and yet there is still an increased peacefulness/restfulness (E) with these phrases shifting, like there is no need to get up and battle or defend anything (T). After all, the body seemed to believe it to some extent, or there wouldn’t have been any sadness triggered (T).

Conclusion: MORE real (E), for sure! I associate to the word “home” (T). Not sure how to describe the experience of “truth” and “reality” about it (T). Being relieved of agency and ownership is somehow a physical relief (E). Like some guilt and/or demand is being taken away (T/E). I have called this “un-identifying” before (T). Or, rather, it has been called “un-identifying” before, by this mind (T). ☺
2. a) Is it the feeling of a doer or the thought of a doer? b) Look deeply please and answer by describing 'what is the feeling of a 'doer'? c) 'But there isn't a "doer"'? Is this a feeling or a mental conclusion (T)?
It’s a core and long-held belief that there is a doer, a learned and taken for granted “truth” (T). So a thought, that seems to induce a certain “stance” or feeling in the body (T & E). This is a stance that almost always is active (T). When the belief is scrutinized, and let go of, the body is more “at home”, part of a flow (T). Relaxing and feeling a happy feeling in my chest and face, energic but mild. Also a bit of being moved by this, like before tears come(E).

“But there isn’t a doer” was at the time that I wrote it more mental than physical feeling. It was a memory, a mental reminder, of the conclusion I made, based on the experience while posting 10/3 (T).

Exploring the doer experientially, this comes up: Basic tendency to assume the belief of “me doing and initiating things” (T). However, when I honestly look back on an initiated action, something that is “my” action, if I look far enough back, the initiative never comes from a “me”, but from nowhere (E). There is a pleasant sensation at this (E). Sometimes it’s clear that one thing lead to another, but many times the initiative just erupts from a place I have no access to (E). There is no longer much surprise at this experiential discovery (E, T), but it still seems that the tendency for claiming responsibility for agency is a die-hard habit (T). Subtle frustration, increased tension, clenching jaw slightly, feeling pressure in the head, slight frown (E).

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Re: Deepening into peace

Postby ElPortal » Sun Mar 13, 2016 1:41 pm

Nice work, Rebecka!

Especially enjoying the widespread (E)-ing and (T)-ing, and the honest reporting of sensations that come up. Doesn't this feel alive?!
it still seems that the tendency for claiming responsibility for agency is a die-hard habit (T).
Sure. Can this 'die-hard habit of claiming reponsibility', these thoughts, be questioned honestly, looked into until seen for what they are, whenever they arise? Would that be ok?

So now, I would like you to read through (or re-read, if you already read them) the list of 'what LU is not'. This sometimes flushes out expectations that can be harboured about having certain privileged awakening experiences or states. Please read each one and then dwell on it for a moment, noting whatever sensations come up, and then report back to me on any. Is it ok if any such reactions and sensations are there? Can they be allowed to stay as long as they stay, pass through when they are ready?

So here's the list:-

1. This is not a way to escape your daily life.
2. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
3. This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
4. This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
5. This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
6. This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
7. This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
8. This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
9. This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
10. This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
11. This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
12. This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
13. This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
14. This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
15. This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
16. This is not about convincing you of anything.
17. This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
18. This is not a self improvement program.

Enjoy.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.


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