Letting go

[Rishi]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
Introduction by a friend & intuition that this may help me in taking the backseat and relax into what is.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I have experience stillness which has spilled outside my practice into my life. An abiding witness. But I still sense the I thought - can I relax and drop it with your guidance ?

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
10 years of Asthanga Yoga. 6 years of meditation (Mantra) + Kriya. I had my Kundalini experience 5 years ago and have a very open crown and Ajna chakra. Lot of blissful energy all through the day. In terms of seeking - I have an abiding witness. What I now sense is the awareness behind the witness . I sense it intuitively - not experientially.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 9

[Bananafish]

Hi Rishi,
Welcome to LU. :)

I would be more than glad to help you.


Regarding your description of your expectation,
I've got a couple of questions:


1. Could you tell me where this "I" that experiences stillness (or senses the I thought) exists?

2. Can you choose any single thought and drop it for good (please actually try it)?
Also, who is it that drops it?



Looking forward to having a dialogue with you.


Kind regards,

Bananafish

[Rishi]

Thanks for the response, Bananafish.

Here are my answers:

1. The 'I thought' is, as I sense based on my experience, more of a reflection of the 'not I' content of my general thoughts. This 'I' thought also plays some role between a fully formed actionable thought in my head and me acting on it.

2. No I cannot drop a single particular thought. Can unclasp from all thoughts into freewheeling silence. Even there, I can 'feel' the thoughts somewhere down there - low amplitude but not sticking. I can replace one thought with another one though :)

Thanks for your time and guidance. I am looking forward to the dialog as well !

Regards,
Rishi

[Rishi]

Also regarding who is dropping the thought ? That is what I am here to realize :)

When I try to see - there is nothing. Only sensations of the body and some energy flow.

[Bananafish]

Hi Rishi.
Thank you for the reply. :)

1. The 'I thought' is, as I sense based on my experience, more of a reflection of the 'not I' content of my general thoughts. This 'I' thought also plays some role between a fully formed actionable thought in my head and me acting on it.

I'm afraid you're not answering my question.
I asked you to tell the exact location in which the "I" exists.

Could you answer it again?

2. No I cannot drop a single particular thought. Can unclasp from all thoughts into freewheeling silence. Even there, I can 'feel' the thoughts somewhere down there - low amplitude but not sticking. I can replace one thought with another one though :)

Please do the same thing as when you tried
to see who is dropping the thought.


Try replacing one thought with another one.
At that moment, can you closely examine who is doing this "replacing?"

Is there anything or anyone that is doing it?
If so, where does that "doer" exist?

When I try to see - there is nothing. Only sensations of the body and some energy flow.

So, did you notice that there's no single, concrete, separate entity that
could possibly cope with thoughts in any way?



Peace,

Bananafish

[Rishi]

Thanks for the feedback, Bananafish !

I'm afraid you're not answering my question.
I asked you to tell the exact location in which the "I" exists.

Could you answer it again?

So I did see the fact that I is a shadow of the content of my thought. Not a separate entity. So was I just assuming it existed ? Wonderful !

2. No I cannot drop a single particular thought. Can unclasp from all thoughts into freewheeling silence. Even there, I can 'feel' the thoughts somewhere down there - low amplitude but not sticking. I can replace one thought with another one though :)


Please do the same thing as when you tried
to see who is dropping the thought.

Blank !

Try replacing one thought with another one.
At that moment, can you closely examine who is doing this "replacing?"

Is there anything or anyone that is doing it?
If so, where does that "doer" exist?

I tried this with 2 internalized phonetics. Holding one as a thought and then replacing with the other. All I could feel was the 'intention'. In terms of where this intention was ? It was deep within- with sensation in solar plexus and heart. So it went like this : blank - intention - thought1 - blank - intention - thought2

When I try to see - there is nothing. Only sensations of the body and some energy flow.

So, did you notice that there's no single, concrete, separate entity that
could possibly cope with thoughts in any way?

What I saw was there was a blank which was aware of/watching the thoughts.This blank floats amidst body & energy sensations. The sensations become intense when I focus on the blank. Not sure about the coping part though.

Regards,
Rishi

[Bananafish]

Hi Rishi!

So I did see the fact that I is a shadow of the content of my thought. Not a separate entity. So was I just assuming it existed ? Wonderful !

Does the "I" exist in any form other than a thought?

I tried this with 2 internalized phonetics. Holding one as a thought and then replacing with the other. All I could feel was the 'intention'. In terms of where this intention was ? It was deep within- with sensation in solar plexus and heart. So it went like this : blank - intention - thought1 - blank - intention - thought2

Is there a subject that intends?
Can there be an intention without the intender?

What I saw was there was a blank which was aware of/watching the thoughts.This blank floats amidst body & energy sensations. The sensations become intense when I focus on the blank. Not sure about the coping part though.

Can you point at what you call "blank?"
Where did you point at?

How can you know that "blank" watches thoughts?

Can you elaborate a bit? From where does it watch thoughts?


Thank you,

Bananafish

[Rishi]

Greetings Bananafish !

Does the "I" exist in any form other than a thought?

No. And in my moment of epiphany yesterday (while answering your first question) I realized that I could not find a distinct 'I thought'. The 'I' was inferred from the content of the usual thoughts - an image. an image with a feeling. sequenced actionable thought.

I tried this with 2 internalized phonetics. Holding one as a thought and then replacing with the other. All I could feel was the 'intention'. In terms of where this intention was ? It was deep within- with sensation in solar plexus and heart. So it went like this : blank - intention - thought1 - blank - intention - thought2

Is there a subject that intends?
Can there be an intention without the intender?

Intention is also rising in silence. It is also a like thought. But more energetic. How do I experiment for :

Can there be an intention without the intender?

Because, for me the intention is initiated by a will that bubbles up from silence & creates the intention. But it does bubble up by a will. So there is an intender.

What I saw was there was a blank which was aware of/watching the thoughts.This blank floats amidst body & energy sensations. The sensations become intense when I focus on the blank. Not sure about the coping part though.

Can you point at what you call "blank?"
Where did you point at?

No. Cannot point. It is all around. In normal state it is limited to the the expanse of my body. I had two experiences (in the last few years) during meditation where this blank had 'opened up' into much bigger & expansive space. It had lasted for a few seconds but experientially showing me that this blank awareness is not limited to my body.

How can you know that "blank" watches thoughts?

The correct description is : thoughts raise in this blank space.

Can you elaborate a bit? From where does it watch thoughts?

Thoughts raise. an image. an image with a feeling. sequenced actionable thought. intention. body sensations all raise in this 'background'. For me, the body sensations (third eye and crown) - are always on. Thoughts fade away.


With Gratitude,
Rishi

[Bananafish]

Hi there!

No. And in my moment of epiphany yesterday (while answering your first question) I realized that I could not find a distinct 'I thought'. The 'I' was inferred from the content of the usual thoughts - an image. an image with a feeling. sequenced actionable thought.

When you say "I realized it," is the word "I" an image or feeling?
Can a word be an image and a feeling at the same time?

Intention is also rising in silence. It is also a like thought. But more energetic. How do I experiment for :

Can there be an intention without the intender?

Because, for me the intention is initiated by a will that bubbles up from silence & creates the intention. But it does bubble up by a will. So there is an intender.

Can you see, touch, smell, hear "intention" and "will," or are they
mere concepts, or thoughts?

Does anything create intention?




Try raising one of your arms.





Which arm did you raise?

At the point of decision making,
was there any subject that created the intention to raise it?


Don't think over it nor conceptualise,
but please report what you actually saw.

No. Cannot point. It is all around. In normal state it is limited to the the expanse of my body. I had two experiences (in the last few years) during meditation where this blank had 'opened up' into much bigger & expansive space. It had lasted for a few seconds but experientially showing me that this blank awareness is not limited to my body.

Does that "blank" have self-direction, or will?

Is that blank separate, or different from the world here and now?

The correct description is : thoughts raise in this blank space.

Are thoughts and "blank" separate?

When looking at thoughts, what is it that shows you
that thoughts arise "in" something?

Thoughts raise. an image. an image with a feeling. sequenced actionable thought. intention. body sensations all raise in this 'background'. For me, the body sensations (third eye and crown) - are always on. Thoughts fade away.

When you feel bodily sensations, what is it that shows you
that sensations arise "in" something?


Peace,

Bananafish

[Rishi]

Thanks for the enlightening homework :)

I spent quite some time on this during meditation and mindful walks today.Here are my observations:

When you say "I realized it," is the word "I" an image or feeling?

'I' is more of a feeling. ' I realized it' - or knowing also had a feeling component. Physical joy and also an intuition.Intuition feels like a spacious relaxed confidence.

Can a word be an image and a feeling at the same time?

Feeling follows the image. First image then feeling. Have not seen them together.

Can you see, touch, smell, hear "intention" and "will," or are they
mere concepts, or thoughts?

I tried this with an intention to think about a mantra.

Silence - intention - mantra

I could feel a movement in silence as the intention 'appeared'. It was an energy. I went deeper and tried to see the boundary between silence and intention. Almost pre intention. That feeling was analogous to intuition but instead of spacious relaxed, it was more of a spacious tension.

Does anything create intention?

It is a movement in silence. No specific creator ! Wow !

Try raising one of your arms.
Which arm did you raise?

Right

At the point of decision making,
was there any subject that created the intention to raise it?

NO. There was not. I can see intention as a movement in silence !

Don't think over it nor conceptualise,
but please report what you actually saw.

Does that "blank" have self-direction, or will?

Is that blank separate, or different from the world here and now?

Cannot sense clearly. The silence or blank is dynamic. It has an energy. My intuition draws from that. There is love and joy also. Will - i cannot sense.

The silence, for me is different from the world, The silence watches the world, here and now. There is love and compassion. But the world is reflected in this silence and seems separate.

The correct description is : thoughts raise in this blank space.

Are thoughts and "blank" separate?

When looking at thoughts, what is it that shows you
that thoughts arise "in" something?

It shows me : If I am thought, I am not blank. So who am I ? that is the question I guess..I am loving this :)

I want to dive into this a bit deeper. At this time I can only see the awareness change from blank to thought. And thought to blank. Cannot 'see' the mechanism behind this awareness. The transition from a deep thought to blank comes with a "falling' feeling. Almost like a small physical drop. From blank to thought is relatively less dramatic. I could even feel some twitches in the brain during thought to deep silence transition.

When you feel bodily sensations, what is it that shows you
that sensations arise "in" something?

All sensations raise in this blank space within my body.
Trying to feel who is sensing the sensations. The energy in the head goes up. Ringing in the ear. I guess I will try again later when I am more relaxed and report back.

Thanks a lot for your direction.

With Gratitude,
Rishi

[Bananafish]

Greetings, Rishi!

I feel you’re doing very well on your inquiries!
Keep your good work. :)

'I' is more of a feeling. ' I realized it' - or knowing also had a feeling component. Physical joy and also an intuition.Intuition feels like a spacious relaxed confidence.

Ok, let’s take a look at that feeling.
Can you pinpoint where that feeling arises?

Also, please look at what makes that feeling “I,”
rather than just a feeling.

Feeling follows the image. First image then feeling. Have not seen them together.

Is the image “I,” or just an image?
Is the feeling “I,” or just an image?

I could feel a movement in silence as the intention 'appeared'. It was an energy. I went deeper and tried to see the boundary between silence and intention. Almost pre intention. That feeling was analogous to intuition but instead of spacious relaxed, it was more of a spacious
It is a movement in silence. No specific creator ! Wow !

Yes! Nice observation!

NO. There was not. I can see intention as a movement in silence !

Great LOOKing here, too. :)
Can you elaborate a bit on what you call “silence?”

Cannot sense clearly. The silence or blank is dynamic. It has an energy. My intuition draws from that. There is love and joy also. Will - i cannot sense.

Then, do you see that “silence” does its own thing, just like clouds float in the sky?

Does “silence” have a distinct quality in itself that distinguishes it from
thoughts or what can be sensed through five senses?

The silence, for me is different from the world, The silence watches the world, here and now. There is love and compassion. But the world is reflected in this silence and seems separate.

You don't sound clear enough, as I can see in the use of the word "seems."

Can you LOOK again and again until you are 100% sure about it?
Please report it from your experience.

The correct description is : thoughts raise in this blank space.

Can you ever know where thoughts arise and where they go?

Please look at thoughts again and report how you notice that
they arise ‘in’ “blank space.”

I want to dive into this a bit deeper. At this time I can only see the awareness change from blank to thought. And thought to blank. Cannot 'see' the mechanism behind this awareness. The transition from a deep thought to blank comes with a "falling' feeling. Almost like a small physical drop. From blank to thought is relatively less dramatic. I could even feel some twitches in the brain during thought to deep silence transition.

It sounds you’re talking about the space (gap) between thoughts?
In that sense, yes, I feel the same. There’s a certain ‘click’ feeling
when thoughts drop and gap is there …


Then, here’s a question for you:

Is it the “I” or “blank,” or “silence” that brings this space between thoughts?
Or, do they happen without any doer of it?

All sensations raise in this blank space within my body.
Trying to feel who is sensing the sensations. The energy in the head goes up. Ringing in the ear. I guess I will try again later when I am more relaxed and report back.

Awesome! Please report back. :)


Peace,

Bananafish

[Rishi]

Dear Bananafish,

Thanks a lot for the continued guidance though this inquiry. I am indeed enjoying this exploration !

I feel you’re doing very well on your inquiries!
Keep your good work. :)

Thanks. I took off to the mountains over the weekend - focussing on few of your questions. I am grateful for some answers that came through :) I will report back on the others soon.

The silence, for me is different from the world, The silence watches the world, here and now. There is love and compassion. But the world is reflected in this silence and seems separate.

You don't sound clear enough, as I can see in the use of the word "seems."

Can you LOOK again and again until you are 100% sure about it?
Please report it from your experience.

I saw that there was NO boundary between silence or the witness and the content of the perception ! I started with what I 'see' through eyes. The mountains, valley and a mountain stream on a sunny morning. Where did the witness end and the 'world' begin ? I could not find the boundary ! Then I close my eyes. The sound of the mountain stream is all around me, wind on my skin , energy inside. There is no boundary where the silent witness ends and all these start.

Choice less awareness of here and now ! Thanks.

There was one more observation. The boundary does not exist - but is subject to the sense perception that the witness is using at that moment. For example, with my eyes closed, I was the sound of the river. I was the wind blowing on my skin. AS soon as I open my eyes I become expansive as far as my eyes can see - the valley and the mountains. Beautiful !

Can you ever know where thoughts arise and where they go?

Please look at thoughts again and report how you notice that
they arise ‘in’ “blank space.”

I experimented by trying to find a case where the blank space arises in the thoughts. Rather than other way around. By an earlier enquiry, I could see that I was either the blank/silence/witness. Or else I was a thought.

Since I was in the blank/silence/witness for most of the time and was thought in occasional instances, the silent state felt as the natural state. Thoughts bubble up in this background. Choiceness remains no more. Attention is now thoughts. There is a realization (have not dived deeper here) that this attention (as a thought)is not in its natural state. Attention becomes relaxed and choice less - back into blank witness.

It sounds you’re talking about the space (gap) between thoughts?
In that sense, yes, I feel the same. There’s a certain ‘click’ feeling
when thoughts drop and gap is there …

Then, here’s a question for you:

Is it the “I” or “blank,” or “silence” that brings this space between thoughts?
Or, do they happen without any doer of it?

The witness or the blank or silence is fully visible as me in the space between the thoughts. Thoughts take the awareness away from this when I am thoughts.

All sensations raise in this blank space within my body.
Trying to feel who is sensing the sensations. The energy in the head goes up. Ringing in the ear. I guess I will try again later when I am more relaxed and report back.

Awesome! Please report back. :)

I could see that there was no boundary between the witness and the sensations. Where witness ends and sensations start. Same was with hearing, smelling, seeing !

With Respects,
Rishi

[Bananafish]

Dear Rishi,

I saw that there was NO boundary between silence or the witness and the content of the perception ! I started with what I 'see' through eyes. The mountains, valley and a mountain stream on a sunny morning. Where did the witness end and the 'world' begin ? I could not find the boundary ! Then I close my eyes. The sound of the mountain stream is all around me, wind on my skin , energy inside. There is no boundary where the silent witness ends and all these start.

Choice less awareness of here and now ! Thanks.

Great observation! :)

There was one more observation. The boundary does not exist - but is subject to the sense perception that the witness is using at that moment. For example, with my eyes closed, I was the sound of the river. I was the wind blowing on my skin. AS soon as I open my eyes I become expansive as far as my eyes can see - the valley and the mountains. Beautiful !

Just to make sure ...
Are the witness and the witnessed separate?

I experimented by trying to find a case where the blank space arises in the thoughts. Rather than other way around. By an earlier enquiry, I could see that I was either the blank/silence/witness. Or else I was a thought.

Since I was in the blank/silence/witness for most of the time and was thought in occasional instances, the silent state felt as the natural state. Thoughts bubble up in this background. Choiceness remains no more. Attention is now thoughts. There is a realization (have not dived deeper here) that this attention (as a thought)is not in its natural state. Attention becomes relaxed and choice less - back into blank witness.

Is there an "I" to be in any kind of state?

How do you see that there is a "background" behind thoughts?

Is it the “I” or “blank,” or “silence” that brings this space between thoughts?
Or, do they happen without any doer of it?

The witness or the blank or silence is fully visible as me in the space between the thoughts. Thoughts take the awareness away from this when I am thoughts.

No, Rishi. Again, you didn't answer my question. It isn't clear.
Please reread the question and answer it again in a more straightforward way.

I could see that there was no boundary between the witness and the sensations. Where witness ends and sensations start. Same was with hearing, smelling, seeing !

Yes, yes. :)

Again, just to make sure ...

Is there a hearer when hearing?

Is there a smeller when smelling?

Is there a seer when seeing?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Rishi]

Dear Bananafish ,

Here is the report of today's enquiry:

Just to make sure ...
Are the witness and the witnessed separate?

They are same in the no thought state. Just witnessing. They become separate as soon as thought appears - or rather as soon as awareness sees through a thought.

Is there an "I" to be in any kind of state?

I don't understand this question. Can you please elaborate.

How do you see that there is a "background" behind thoughts?

There is something which initiates the intention to drop a thought.Some sort of movement in silence. This is also aware of silence. I feel that is the real background. I was assuming that silence is the background. It is not. There is something else. Can you guide me further in this direction ?

Is it the “I” or “blank,” or “silence” that brings this space between thoughts?
Or, do they happen without any doer of it?

This awareness 'brings' the space between the thoughts. The space itself is silence. But there is some movement that causes the gap. Cannot see this very clearly yet. I tried to experiment with a 'test' intention to drop a thought. There is a movement associated with the intention that I can see. A movement in silence. Can you guide me more ?

Is there a hearer when hearing?

Is there a smeller when smelling?

Is there a seer when seeing?

No - there is no hearer, smeller or seer in silence. There is an awareness of hearing smelling & seeing.


Respectfully,
Rishi

[Bananafish]

Hi Rishi! :)

They are same in the no thought state. Just witnessing. They become separate as soon as thought appears - or rather as soon as awareness sees through a thought.

Does awareness see?

Can awareness "do" anything other than just being aware - in other
words, just being there ... "aware-ing" so to say?

Can will, subjectivity, or intention attributed
to awareness?

Is there an "I" to be in any kind of state?

I don't understand this question. Can you please elaborate.

When you say "state," what is it that is in that state?

There is something which initiates the intention to drop a thought.Some sort of movement in silence. This is also aware of silence. I feel that is the real background. I was assuming that silence is the background. It is not. There is something else. Can you guide me further in this direction ?

Please don't assume anything. Assumptions are ideas, which has nothing to
do with what we're dealing with here. Please don't answer with your assumptions,
but be 100% sure of what you answer. Otherwise, this conversation
will become a mere play of ideas or words.


Literally LOOK at that "something," or "background" you've been referring to.
Are they just words, ideas, assumptions or not? If they aren't, tell me
where, when, and in what kind of form they can exist.

This awareness 'brings' the space between the thoughts. The space itself is silence. But there is some movement that causes the gap. Cannot see this very clearly yet. I tried to experiment with a 'test' intention to drop a thought. There is a movement associated with the intention that I can see. A movement in silence. Can you guide me more ?

Again, can awareness bring anything?


Why isn't it enough to know that there is a gap?

No - there is no hearer, smeller or seer in silence. There is an awareness of hearing smelling & seeing.

Are awareness and hearing, smelling, healing different?


Peace,

Bananafish