Ilona Thread

[williamj]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

I have been told about this site. I am a Spanish guy that actually lives in the UK. I have read some threads during some weeks. I also read the Gateless Gatecrashers book and I think I sort of understand intelectually what is said but I am not pretty unsure about it. I apologize if sometimes I cannot be well understood, my knowldedge of English could be limited. Anyway, I'd prefer having a thread in English rather than in Spanish.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

I hope I can understand this no-me issue.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

I am very interested in buddhist ideology. I have reached some spectacular, peaceful, loving "mind states" in the past. However, I think those states are undoubtedly my worst obstacle for Enlightenment, because I am constantly seeking in order to reach it. I fear that I am already seeing that there is no me but that I can't stand with not feeling that peace everyone in this site talks about. So, each day, I feel this emptiness as if something essential is missing here and there is a recurrent thought imposing its opinion. Something similar to 'there should be peace, why can't I feel it?' and 'If I have seen the absence of 'I', why isn't there a change, at least a tiny shift?'. It really disturbs me and there is a lot of frustration so at the same time I think I see there is no me but the truth is that it doesn´t fit with the reactions of those who have seen. Like some guides tend to say here, 'what is seen cannot be unseen'. I would be very grateful if you helped me, Ilona.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Hi WilliamJ, I am not Ilona. I would be happy to Guide you if that is acceptable for you. Thanks

[williamj]

Hi WilliamJ, I am not Ilona. I would be happy to Guide you if that is acceptable for you. Thanks

Oh, that's okay! :) I thought I was writing to Ilona, but I am not particularly interested in a specific guide. By the way, you can call me Will.

I hope I'm doing this "quote" thing right.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

I hope I'm doing this "quote" thing right.

Did it exactly right.

I'm in the US, mountain zone so 7 hours behind you time wise. When I post in the evening you will get it in morning. If you hit "subscribe to this thread" (bottom left) you will get an email when I post to you. I can give you tips as we go. Let's get started.

my worst obstacle for Enlightenment, because I am constantly seeking in order to reach it.

Question: What will change from your current state when you reach Enlightenment?

Thanks!

[williamj]

Question: What will change from your current state when you reach Enlightenment?

Well, I think I will reach peace. But not a subtle, faint peace: a considerable sensation of fulfillment that comes with an increase of love and the beginning of losing fear. This is what I experienced a pair of times some years ago. And I know I wouldn´t accept a little fraction of it, even knowing that in the future it would grow. Therefore, some months ago I admitted to myself that I have a problem with that visceral desire. Every time I am not distracted or entertained, I feel a hole that leads to frustration and suffering because I feel nothing is in the right place, that everything is fake, pretending... In resume, it leads to a pesimistic point of view of the world, of people, of things, of human perspective. And the root of all pain is this curious addiction to that peace I do not have. Misunderstunding the buddhist concepts that encompass the emptiness of phenomena has brought more ignorance and more addiction to seeking and to reaching a nearly-divine sensation that I know that exists.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Thank you for the thoughtful answer.

Here is my Direct Experience right now: Voice from television to front, car noise to right front, dog runs across my front from right to left, cushions push against my sitting area.

From your answer:

I admitted to myself that I have a problem with that visceral desire. Every time I am not distracted or entertained, I feel a hole that leads to frustration and suffering

Exercise: When you feel a hole that leads to frustration and suffering, describe that in Direct Experience as I have above.

Thanks

[williamj]

Exercise: When you feel a hole that leads to frustration and suffering, describe that in Direct Experience as I have above.

OK, it won't be difficult as I have done this many times.
Flowers. TV. Friend playing, fingers typing, sound of rain, a voice saying that something is wrong (in other words, thought), sensations appropiate to that thought (sort of stomachache), heart beating faster and some nervousness.
Experience: a complex of sensations/emotions, thought, sight, taste, hearing, touch and smell.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Friend playing, fingers typing, sound of rain, a voice saying that something is wrong (in other words, thought), sensations appropiate to that thought (sort of stomachache), heart beating faster and some nervousness.
Experience: a complex of sensations/emotions, thought, sight, taste, hearing, touch and smell.

Great job. Earlier you wrote:

Well, I think I will reach peace. But not a subtle, faint peace: a considerable sensation of fulfillment that comes with an increase of love and the beginning of losing fear.

Exercise: Describe that sense of peace in Direct Experience as you have above.

[williamj]

Exercise: Describe that sense of peace in Direct Experience as you have above.

Yesterday I answered but I don't know what happened, I see there is no reply so I will repeat what I wrote again.
In Direct Experience? I can´t find that sense of peace.
However, there is this 'what observes thought, feelings, hearing, touch etc.' that is always present. But I can't point at it. Well, it doesn't seem to be an entity or whatever here looking at all these things. Maybe it's just the mind trying to create an 'I' behind the observation. Anyway, let's imagine this thing as a place, as an entity. There, in that space(?) there is no place for good or bad, for beautiful or ugly, for peace or inestability. It seems like it is a neutral observation. But it isn't neither neutral, because that would imply that there could be a 'non neutral' state. It seems it cannot be well described. You couldn´t say it is something. You could only say it is. What is this thing? If you responded with some term like 'Consciousness' I would not understand it, I relate that word with some mind process. Could it be Existence, Experiencing? The being. Life. There is not anything that observes thought etc. I think that, as I wrote before, that is an illusion of the mind, an 'I' behind the things.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Ok thanks for your patience. Sometimes the forum software gobbles up answers.

Exercise: Let's look at a few of your statements and determine whether they are the content of thought (T) or Direct Experience (DE).

From yesterday - Well, it doesn't seem to be an entity or whatever here looking at all these things.
From earlier - fingers typing, sound of rain
From yesterday - Could it be Existence, Experiencing? The being. Life.
From earlier - a voice saying that something is wrong

Copy and paste that list and put "T" or "DE" next to each, like this:
example from earlier - heart beating faster (DE)

Comment as you like on what you see when you do this exercise.

Thanks!

[williamj]

Copy and paste that list and put "T" or "DE" next to each, like this:
example from earlier - heart beating faster (DE)

Well, it doesn't seem to be an entity or whatever here looking at all these things. DE
fingers typing, sound of rain. DE
a voice saying that something is wrong. - T and DE. It is a thought, but the observation of it is made from DE.

From yesterday - Could it be Existence, Experiencing? The being. Life. - Mmm... that is quite hard to examinate. I have to remember what was my mental process. Firstly, I considered this thing behind experience as an entity - thought (T). Then I actually saw no entity behind, it was just a subtle sensation, just as the feeling of 'I'-DE. That's when I realized that looking for a observer was a mind trap - T. Consequently, I asked myself, 'How could it be that there is no observer, no conscient entity, but a consciousness of phenomena, but observation? '- T. Feeling that there was something behind the experience was only imagination; we are able to feel inexistent events. - T (the supposition that it was all imagining, the answer to 'how can it happen that way'), but a preceding DE (seeing there is nothing behind the experience). So thought here is only in order to find a logical explanation of the basic error, with premises based on DE. It is only the urge to know the reasons of the mistake. Always wanting to know how evertything happens and how it fits with the rest of reality. Finally: a thought (T) that proposes a new theory that has to be verified by DE: how does experience happen? What is this observation of experience? Could it be just experiencing?

The answer to it: there is no separation between observation of experience and experience. There is not such a 'subject - act - object' relationship. There can be just focusing, as a part of experience, but not 'behind observation'. So that is the conclusion: the 'what observes' does not exist. As a last resort, there is only observation. That observation is the experience. I was trying to find what experiences experience, what observes experience, and there is only experience. That experience is existence. That existence / experience could be also called life. Or being. Experience that experiences itself? What a tricky labyrinth of words - T. This last paragraph was a big DE (with the exception of the previous sentence).
I hope you can understand it well, I tend to show a detailed perspective and although I try to be concise my message stretches on anyway...
Have a nice day :)

[QuantSelfLaFont]

that is quite hard to examinate.

Fortunately we have simplified it. At Liberation Unleashed we consider Direct Experience (DE) that which we experience directly. Like the sound of a fan, or heat on skin. Everything else is a modification of experience through the content of thought (T). To illustrate:
Could it be Existence, Experiencing? The being. Life. (T)

Firstly, I considered this thing behind experience as an entity - thought (T). Then I actually saw no entity behind, it was just a subtle sensation, just as the feeling of 'I'-DE. That's when I realized that looking for a observer was a mind trap - T. Consequently, I asked myself, 'How could it be that there is no observer, no conscient entity, but a consciousness of phenomena, but observation? '- T.

This is good work.

how does experience happen? What is this observation of experience? Could it be just experiencing?

Good question! Let these insights settle in today.

Experience that experiences itself?

Question: Does experience experience itself? What, or who, is doing the experiencing?

[williamj]

Question: Does experience experience itself? What, or who, is doing the experiencing?

There is only experience, without anyone doing the experiencing

[QuantSelfLaFont]

There is only experience, without anyone doing the experiencing

Right.

Earlier around expectations you said:

I feel a hole that leads to frustration and suffering because I feel nothing is in the right place, that everything is fake, pretending

Question: When you were a child and found out that Santa Claus did not exist, what change occurred?

[williamj]

Sorry, I have been busy these days...

Question: When you were a child and found out that Santa Claus did not exist, what change occurred?

Well, I was kind of disappointed, but nothing occurred, nothing changed... Except for the belief in Santa that disappeared.