How to move from intellectual to realised knowledge of no se

[ICB]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

Looking to realise my true nature

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

Help to move from knowing about no self just intellectually to embodying it moment to moment. Learning to loose the habit patterns of the past and operate from essence not personality

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

Regular Vipassana practitioner

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

[forgetmenot]

Hi ICB

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING THOROUGHLY and when responding please acknowledge that you have read this thoroughly and agree to the ground rules. Please be aware that the ground rules are not a suggestion, they do serve a purpose in the exploration of seeing through the illusory ‘self’.

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist in exploring the illusion of the separate self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers. I will ask questions and set you some exercises for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. This will be the focus. There are no right or wrong answers and there is nobody judging you. You can't get this wrong.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

SOME GROUND RULES:-

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts).
Read this article at

http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/

for more help on distinguishing what is actual/direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

TECHNICAL SUPPORT

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- PLEASE LEARN to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below :

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

- The site has a habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere (word document), then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

If you are happy to agree to the above and have me as your guide, we can start the process.

Warm regards
Kay

[ICB]

Hi Kay

Thank you for agreeing to be my guide and I am happy to start the process

Ian

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ian,

Thank you for taking the time to read the introduction and agreeing to the ground rules. Let’s get this party started, as they say! :)

Even though you gave a brief introduction when registering for the forum, just so I know what you are expecting from our conversation, could you please answer the follow 5 questions.

Throughout this exploration I will highlight questions I would like you to answer in blue. Could you answer each question individually using the quote function to highlight the question you are answering - this not only keeps the posts tidy but also easily read.

1. How will Life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?
5. What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?


Best wishes
Kay

[ICB]

Hi Kay

Thanks for your questions. Please find answers below.

1. How will Life change?

What comes to mind when processing this question is that there will be less repetition of old habit patterns in life. Currently, there are relationships and situations where Ian finds himself "hooked" or "triggered". It is only after a while of being on "autopilot" that there is then awareness of what has taken place.

2. How will you change?

Currently there is so much mental chatter. I have been extremely surprised and shaken to discover just how much of my life is spent on "autopilot"- unconsciously craving or being averse to the diverse bodily sensations that arise in response to different external and mental stimuli. This has shaken me and left me groundless - the metaphor or image that arises is that my old concept of "Ian" was a bunch of sticks laid over a deep hole - and it is this I have stood on throughout my life as my idea of "me". As I have pulled up the sticks one by one, there is nothing left - yet the experience is one of groundlessness, not being more grounded. And there are still worries about the things that I am still attached to - e.g. an ongoing argument with my twin brother, worries about money, etc...

3. What will be different?

Much of the teaching I have come across talks about Rigpa, or the spaciousness that lies above and beyond thought. My hope is that there will be a slowing down of the incessant chatter, the incessant "monkey mind" - and a greater spaciousness and ability to be in the present. Within each interaction and situation there will be a full range of possible outcomes - not just a repeat of the habitual patterns of the past.

4. What is missing?

The ability to witness thought slowing down and find the spaciousness (Rigpa) that lies beyond

5. What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Support in identifying practices and approaches to loosen remaining attachments to this concept of "Ian" and support the slowing down of the incessant chatter of the monkey mind - and find the spaciousness that lies beyond.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ian,

When you read my responses I want you to be aware of what arises for you ie anger, resistance, disappointment, relief, frustration and so on and just let me know.

1. How will Life change?

What comes to mind when processing this question is that there will be less repetition of old habit patterns in life. Currently, there are relationships and situations where Ian finds himself "hooked" or "triggered". It is only after a while of being on "autopilot" that there is then awareness of what has taken place.

There isn’t anyone or anything that has repetitious habits/patterns because there never has been a ‘person’ called Ian. There is also no such thing as getting “hooked” or “triggered”? The labels “hooked” and “triggered” are actual experience (AE) of thought but are not actual experience (AE) of anyone or anything being “hooked” or “triggered”.

2. How will you change?

Currently there is so much mental chatter. I have been extremely surprised and shaken to discover just how much of my life is spent on "autopilot"- unconsciously craving or being averse to the diverse bodily sensations that arise in response to different external and mental stimuli. This has shaken me and left me groundless - the metaphor or image that arises is that my old concept of "Ian" was a bunch of sticks laid over a deep hole - and it is this I have stood on throughout my life as my idea of "me". As I have pulled up the sticks one by one, there is nothing left - yet the experience is one of groundlessness, not being more grounded. And there are still worries about the things that I am still attached to - e.g. an ongoing argument with my twin brother, worries about money, etc...

Thoughts come and go but are not authored or owned by anyone or anything. The body is an image and is no way affected by “external or mental stimuli”. There is assumption here of cause and effect which points to time and time does not exist.

The label “worry” is the actual experience (AE) of thought and NOT the AE of worry.
The sensation labelled “worry” is the actual experience (AE) of sensation and NOT the AE of worry.
The image labelled “Ian/body” is the actual experience (AE) of image and NOT the AE of ‘person who worries’.

There is no actual experience (AE) of worry…all that is actually appearing is label + sensation + image.

3. What will be different?

Much of the teaching I have come across talks about Rigpa, or the spaciousness that lies above and beyond thought. My hope is that there will be a slowing down of the incessant chatter, the incessant "monkey mind" - and a greater spaciousness and ability to be in the present. Within each interaction and situation there will be a full range of possible outcomes - not just a repeat of the habitual patterns of the past.

The chatter may or may not quieten but there is no separate individual who has control over what thoughts appear or when they appear….thoughts come and go, and in and of themselves, are meaningless. There is no such thing as the present moment or spaciousness…there is only THIS and there is no separate individual living a life…life just happens and there is no one/nothing controlling it.

4. What is missing?

The ability to witness thought slowing down and find the spaciousness (Rigpa) that lies beyond

There is no one to witness anything. There is no such thing as an observer. Thoughts, sensation, sound, smell, taste and colours are known but they are not witnessed. To be able to witness something means that there is a subject/object split and there is no subject/object split, otherwise the concept of separation/duality would be real.

5. What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Support in identifying practices and approaches to loosen remaining attachments to this concept of "Ian" and support the slowing down of the incessant chatter of the monkey mind - and find the spaciousness that lies beyond.

I am here to guide and how this is done is through posing questions that point to you LOOKING for the answer. This exploration is not about intellectual answers based on what you think you know based on ‘past’ learning….it is about ‘unlearning’. There is no “spaciousness that lies beyond”…there is no beyond.

Best wishes
Kay

[ICB]

Thanks Kay. I took a walk to get lunch halfway through answering the first quote. Already I notice a process of "dropping away" occurring. My responses below:

There isn’t anyone or anything that has repetitious habits/patterns because there never has been a ‘person’ called Ian. There is also no such thing as getting “hooked” or “triggered”? The labels “hooked” and “triggered” are actual experience (AE) of thought but are not actual experience (AE) of anyone or anything being “hooked” or “triggered”.

So at first, some frustration ("I know, but..."), and then after a while realisation. The ironic notion that the tendency of thought to bring up a memory into the now, and to then observe and identify with a repetitive pattern of behaviour over "time: - is actually the thing that causes the repetition in behaviour.

Thoughts come and go but are not authored or owned by anyone or anything. The body is an image and is no way affected by “external or mental stimuli”. There is assumption here of cause and effect which points to time and time does not exist.

The label “worry” is the actual experience (AE) of thought and NOT the AE of worry.
The sensation labelled “worry” is the actual experience (AE) of sensation and NOT the AE of worry.
The image labelled “Ian/body” is the actual experience (AE) of image and NOT the AE of ‘person who worries’.

There is no actual experience (AE) of worry…all that is actually appearing is label + sensation + image.

So as I read this I notice internal resistance to the idea that there is not time or causation. Not at a rational level, but at an embodied level. I know all of what you write is true, and yet there is a thought somewhere that wants to hold on to this, regardless of the rationale.

The chatter may or may not quieten but there is no separate individual who has control over what thoughts appear or when they appear….thoughts come and go, and in and of themselves, are meaningless. There is no such thing as the present moment or spaciousness…there is only THIS and there is no separate individual living a life…life just happens and there is no one/nothing controlling it.

So, again a realisation this is true. And, at the same time a noticing of a holding on - a thought that I don't want to let go of the idea that I [/b]can control my life. And then a wondering - if there is a thought and label attached around "fear of letting go"?

There is no one to witness anything. There is no such thing as an observer. Thoughts, sensation, sound, smell, taste and colours are known but they are not witnessed. To be able to witness something means that there is a subject/object split and there is no subject/object split, otherwise the concept of separation/duality would be real.

Now a thought of "wow - just how deep does my attachment to ego go?"...and a realisation that "Ian" has moved from identifying with ego to identifying with the idea that "I am universal awareness" - and even this promotes a subject/object split

There is no one to witness anything. There is no such thing as an observer. Thoughts, sensation, sound, smell, taste and colours are known but they are not witnessed. To be able to witness something means that there is a subject/object split and there is no subject/object split, otherwise the concept of separation/duality would be real.

And now the thought arises "how to unlearn remaining attachment to this notion of Ian or of being anything?" "how does it arise in the form of sensation/ thought/ label from moment-to-moment?", and a thought arising with a label of "desire/ craving for this unlearning to happen now!!!!"

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ian,

So at first, some frustration ("I know, but..."), and then after a while realisation. The ironic notion that the tendency of thought to bring up a memory into the now, and to then observe and identify with a repetitive pattern of behaviour over "time: - is actually the thing that causes the repetition in behaviour.

Thought is unable “to bring up a memory into the now”. A thought is just a thought and has no abilities whatsoever. There is no such thing as “memory”. How is it known that an appearing thought is about the ‘past’…because another appearing thought says so?

On an aside: seeing through the illusory self does not mean that what is termed as “repetitive pattern of behaviour” will change.

I want you to close your eyes and look very carefully throughout the ‘body’ and tell me exactly where ‘you’ are found in the body. Look in the toes, the cells, the brain…everywhere. And when you find ‘you’ I want you to describe ‘you’ in precise detail.

So as I read this I notice internal resistance to the idea that there is not time or causation. Not at a rational level, but at an embodied level. I know all of what you write is true, and yet there is a thought somewhere that wants to hold on to this, regardless of the rationale.

Thoughts can’t hold onto anything! Can ‘you’ hold onto or let go of sound? Then why could ‘you’ hold onto or let go of any thoughts/beliefs?

What is the actual experience (AE) [aka direct experience] of “resistance”?

So, again a realisation this is true. And, at the same time a noticing of a holding on - a thought that I don't want to let go of the idea that I [/b]can control my life. And then a wondering - if there is a thought and label attached around "fear of letting go"?

“Fear of letting go” is a thought/label! There never has been a ‘you’ who has been “controlling my life”, so what could possibly be different now?

However, as an aside – yes, fear seemingly appears with the idea of seeing through the illusory self. The thoughts of having no control are frightening and it is great that you are aware of them. When resistance arises to reading what I write, or in doing exercises set, or to LOOK…then you know that it is the fear of seeing. Questions arise such as, who will I be, will I disappear, what will “my life” look like etc, but there has NEVER been a separate individual ‘you’, so nothing happens except that perception changes.

Now a thought of "wow - just how deep does my attachment to ego go?"...and a realisation that "Ian" has moved from identifying with ego to identifying with the idea that "I am universal awareness" - and even this promotes a subject/object split

Nice realisation about identifying as “universal awareness”. "Awareness" is not a thing. It is a concept that describes the process of thoughts arising about the thoughts that arise.

There is no such thing as an ‘ego’. The label ‘ego’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and is NOT the AE of an ego.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply image/colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought.

So as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree, simply = image/colour
Smelling the coffee = smell,
Feel the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste
Hearing a car drive by = sound
Thought about work = thought. (Thoughts can be words and mental images)

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

Kay xxoo

[ICB]

Thought is unable “to bring up a memory into the now”. A thought is just a thought and has no abilities whatsoever. There is no such thing as “memory”. How is it known that an appearing thought is about the ‘past’…because another appearing thought says so?

On an aside: seeing through the illusory self does not mean that what is termed as “repetitive pattern of behaviour” will change.

I want you to close your eyes and look very carefully throughout the ‘body’ and tell me exactly where ‘you’ are found in the body. Look in the toes, the cells, the brain…everywhere. And when you find ‘you’ I want you to describe ‘you’ in precise detail.

So as I do this, 'I' can be found nowhere. There is a stream of thoughts and sensations that arise - and nothing else. There is a thought that "I" lies just behind the emerging thought, or sensation - but this "I" is never reached or encountered (because it doesn't exist). As a thought arises and fades, a thought emerges to go "back" and look for "I" - but all that is found is another thought. And then a thought behind that one, and so one. The experience is one of a hall of mirrors...All I have managed to find is a set of thoughts that describe how "I" perceive "myself" to be - e.g. "I am clever", "I am a good person", "I am a bad person", etc...a metaphor arises that these thoughts create a "structure" that creates the illusion of a separate self. Each experience is accompanied by a thought that "builds" and "reinforces" this illusory structure...increasing attachment to the notion of a separate self

Thoughts can’t hold onto anything! Can ‘you’ hold onto or let go of sound? Then why could ‘you’ hold onto or let go of any thoughts/beliefs?

What is the actual experience (AE) [aka direct experience] of “resistance”?

So the experience of resistance is a thought that says "No! I don't want it to be that way" - accompanied by a strong energetic sensation

Nice realisation about identifying as “universal awareness”. "Awareness" is not a thing. It is a concept that describes the process of thoughts arising about the thoughts that arise.

There is no such thing as an ‘ego’. The label ‘ego’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and is NOT the AE of an ego.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply image/colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought.

So as you become aware of:
Seeing a tree, simply = image/colour
Smelling the coffee = smell,
Feel the wind on your face = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste
Hearing a car drive by = sound
Thought about work = thought. (Thoughts can be words and mental images)

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

As I have done this periodically throughout the day, I have become aware of a continuous stream of experience. Thoughts, sensations, noises, tastes, images all arise one at a time - and then fade away...to be replaced by another. And another...and so on. The stream is never ending and continuous. And that is all there appears to be - sensation or thought.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ian,

I want you to close your eyes and look very carefully throughout the ‘body’ and tell me exactly where ‘you’ are found in the body. Look in the toes, the cells, the brain…everywhere. And when you find ‘you’ I want you to describe ‘you’ in precise detail.

So as I do this, 'I' can be found nowhere. I am a good person", "I am a bad person", etc...a metaphor arises that these thoughts create a "structure" that creates the illusion of a separate self. Each experience is accompanied by a thought that "builds" and "reinforces" this illusory structure...increasing attachment to the notion of a separate self

Yes….nice looking!

However…to what exactly could the “notion of a separate self” be increasingly attached to?

What is the actual experience (AE) [aka direct experience] of “resistance”?

So the experience of resistance is a thought that says "No! I don't want it to be that way" - accompanied by a strong energetic sensation

Yes! :)

The label “resistance” is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE of resistance
The thought "No! I don't want it to be that way" is the AE of thought and no the AE of ‘person resisting’
The sensation labelled “resistance” is the AE of sensation and not the AE of resistance.
The colours labelled “Ian/body” is the AE of colours and not the AE of a “person resisting”

So there is no actual experience of “resistance”, what the actual experience is = label/thought + sensation + colours.

Can you see this?

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

As I have done this periodically throughout the day, I have become aware of a continuous stream of experience. Thoughts, sensations, noises, tastes, images all arise one at a time - and then fade away...to be replaced by another. And another...and so on. The stream is never ending and continuous. And that is all there appears to be - sensation or thought.

Great! Keep on looking for a couple more days - just so that it becomes very clear.

So now you know what LOOKING with actual/direct experience (AE) means. ‘Looking” is just plain looking to what is here right now. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. It’s noticing sound, taste, smell, sensation and colours (images) to see what is actually present and has always been; as well as noticing thought/s - not thinking, but noticing or being ‘aware’ of thought/s. Thoughts tend to pull you away from looking directly, as by directly looking into what you experience, you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".

So let’s look at thoughts.

Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying, and rather just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from?
Where are they going?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Please look carefully when doing this exercise.

Answer all questions in blue individually using the quote function.

Kay xxoo

[ICB]

Yes….nice looking!

However…to what exactly could the “notion of a separate self” be increasingly attached to?

So the notion of a separate self can't be attached to anything that I can see or find? It seems instead that it is a thought pattern that repeats and repeats and repeats - creating the illusion of being a truth

So there is no actual experience of “resistance”, what the actual experience is = label/thought + sensation + colours.

Can you see this?

Yes! And in fact today I noticed how emotion was formed through this process. As I caught myself being "disappointed" I noticed an energetic sensation in the stomach area, together with a thought related to the disappointment. At is this combination of sensation and thought with a label that creates the illusion of an emotion

Great! Keep on looking for a couple more days - just so that it becomes very clear.

As I have continued to do this, I have noticed how I am sometimes more successful than others. At some times I remember and focus on just observing the flow of sensation and thought as they arise. As I do this, the flow of thought seems to slow down and I am more able to be with my direct experience of sight, sound, smell, touch, sensation. And at others, I forget and become "swept up" by thought. It is almost as if the flow of thought increases in speed and volume. And then I remember to observe, and thought recedes for direct experience of sensation, touch, smell, sound, sight to predominate again.

Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying, and rather just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

So the flow of thought seems totally unpredictable. Thoughts appear totally without any control from myself.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

I have no control over when a thought will arise or what it will be. They just come, unbidden.

Where are they coming from?

Emptiness

Where are they going?

Emptiness

Can you predict your next thought?

Not at all. the process as I observe it in the moment is totally random

Can you push away any thought?

Not in the slightest. I have no control

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No - I have no control

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No once they are arising they need to crest into full view, and then pass away. "I" have no control.

Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Nope

Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?

Not in this experiment. But I wonder - if you told me to add four and four, wouldn't there be some control as "I" added these numbers together, at least for an instant before the randomness kicked back in?

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Nope

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Overall, the passage of thoughts just seems like a random flow. Sometimes a thought appears after an external sound or sensation. Sometimes a thought appears to follow on from another thought. Sometimes a thought appears which seems to continue a train of thought from hours earlier. And sometimes a thought seems to appear randomly for no reason at all.

The thoughts seem to arise until they are in full view, and then disappear again. Then a sensation might arise, or I might hear a noise. Or another thought might come again. One by one, a new experience rises and then fades. To be replaced with another. And so on. I can't stop a thought mid-process, influence the process by which thoughts arise and fade or control it. All I can do is observe.

As I watched the passage of thoughts, I became almost dizzy at their randomness. It seems that there is no discernible logical order. Yet a thought might arise which appears to look back at a sequence of thoughts and post-rationalise a logical sequence. For instance, as I was drinking my tea, a thought arose about the tea. But there is no logic why it arose then - I could drink a cup of tea again and a thought might arise about dolphins swimming on Mars. Yet I seem to discern that this process of post-rationalising is key to how thought maintains the illusion of a separate self. It somehow creates an illusion that there is a logical, rational "I" controlling the process of thought - the logic after the fact demonstrates the fact that "I" am causing thought - rather than it being a random process.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ian,

Once again you have done some really...nice looking! I noticed that you had put your answers in blue and wondered if my “answer all questions in blue individually using the quote function” was somewhat ambiguous. What I meant was to ensure you answered all the questions highlighted in blue text.

So the notion of a separate self can't be attached to anything that I can see or find? It seems instead that it is a thought pattern that repeats and repeats and repeats - creating the illusion of being a truth

Yes. And are you able to control whether that thought repeats itself or not?

Yes! And in fact today I noticed how emotion was formed through this process. As I caught myself being "disappointed" I noticed an energetic sensation in the stomach area, together with a thought related to the disappointment. At is this combination of sensation and thought with a label that creates the illusion of an emotion

Nice! So there is no actual experience (AE) of “disappointed”, what is really present is label/thought + sensation?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

So the flow of thought seems totally unpredictable. Thoughts appear totally without any control from myself.

Yes. How is it known that they were appearing to ‘you’?
Can a ‘you’ be found in sound, thought, sensation, colour, taste, smell?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

I have no control over when a thought will arise or what it will be. They just come, unbidden.

Yes

Can you predict your next thought?

Not at all. the process as I observe it in the moment is totally random

Yes

Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?

Not in this experiment. But I wonder - if you told me to add four and four, wouldn't there be some control as "I" added these numbers together, at least for an instant before the randomness kicked back in?

I would like for you to locate the “I” that is thinking and adding these numbers. Can you find this "I" anywhere?
And there is an assumption that there are ‘other people’ thinking and posing questions as well.

Since you saw that thoughts come unbidden, how is it known that after a question was asked that you brought forth the answer……because another thought says so?

Overall, the passage of thoughts just seems like a random flow. Sometimes a thought appears after an external sound or sensation. Sometimes a thought appears to follow on from another thought. Sometimes a thought appears which seems to continue a train of thought from hours earlier. And sometimes a thought seems to appear randomly for no reason at all.

Yes, thought are like a random flow.

How is it known that a "thought appeared after an external sound or sensation" ?
There is an assumption here of cause and effect which is the belief in time and the belief in object/subject split – none of these exist in actual experience.

As I watched the passage of thoughts, I became almost dizzy at their randomness. It seems that there is no discernible logical order. Yet a thought might arise which appears to look back at a sequence of thoughts and post-rationalise a logical sequence. For instance, as I was drinking my tea, a thought arose about the tea. But there is no logic why it arose then - I could drink a cup of tea again and a thought might arise about dolphins swimming on Mars.

Yes, exactly!

So going by your sentence, “Yet a thought might arise which appears to look back at a sequence of thoughts and post-rationalise a logical sequence" - you saw that this sentence is just another thought in the random flow of thoughts as well?

Yet I seem to discern that this process of post-rationalising is key to how thought maintains the illusion of a separate self. It somehow creates an illusion that there is a logical, rational "I" controlling the process of thought - the logic after the fact demonstrates the fact that "I" am causing thought - rather than it being a random process.

Yes, the “I” thought that appears is what keeps the illusion running. “I am thinking and I am thinking rationally and logically and this is how I work things out”.
So, you have seen there is no logic to thoughts, they just 'come and go' and there isn’t anyone/anything that is creating them or controlling them. It is only another thought that says thoughts are sequenced in logical order.

If you were to hear a different language, how is it known that what is spoken is in some sort of logical sequence? Because a thought says so?

Are not “post rationalising” thoughts just ‘made up’ of another flow of random thoughts? And thoughts can’t create anything. Is it not just another thought that appears saying “post-rationalising somehow creates an illusion that there is a logical, rational “I”?

Thoughts do not contain any experience. The actual experience (AE) of a thought is just the face value as a thought, but the content is just story/illusion.

Kay xxoo

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ian,

I haven't heard from you. Are you have difficulties or just gotten busy? If you are unable to respond to a post in full, can you drop a line or two here to let me know what's going on.

Kay xxoo

[ICB]

Hi Kay. Thanks for nudging me - children and kids had got in the way slightly. I am still practicing the 'labelling' activity and attempting to stay vigilant to the ongoing flow of sensation and thought. Responses below, Ian.

I noticed that you had put your answers in blue and wondered if my “answer all questions in blue individually using the quote function” was somewhat ambiguous. What I meant was to ensure you answered all the questions highlighted in blue text.

Thanks for the clarification - got you now!

So there is no actual experience (AE) of “disappointed”, what is really present is label/thought + sensation?

Exactly - that is "my" experience of what is.

How is it known that they were appearing to ‘you’? Can a ‘you’ be found in sound, thought, sensation, colour, taste, smell?

All that can be said is that they arise, form into full view and then disappear. That is all. But I wonder about this notion of "identification". It seems that sometimes "I" am just able to witness these thoughts, and they move gently like clouds in the sky. And other times "I" seem to get more hooked by them. And I notice that maybe that is because another thought flows after the first that says "this is happening to me - I want/ don't want this". Or another thought comes that thinks about what the first thought might mean in the 'future', or what happened in the 'past' to lead to this. The other day I noticed, after an argument with my brother, that thoughts appeared where Ian was having a conversation with him in his head. It seems to be these personalised thoughts that create the identification, together with the strong sensations that accompany them.

Can a ‘you’ be found in sound, thought, sensation, colour, taste, smell?

Nope.

I would like for you to locate the “I” that is thinking and adding these numbers. Can you find this "I" anywhere?

No. there is no I. Just a thought of 4 + 4 = 8

Since you saw that thoughts come unbidden, how is it known that after a question was asked that you brought forth the answer……because another thought says so?

Yes that is it. And I am aware that there was no "I" that brought forth the answer...but I notice a thought arises that the answer of 4+4=8 seems to have been 'caused' by the hearing of the question? I struggle to find how to let go of this bit

How is it known that a "thought appeared after an external sound or sensation" ?

So it seems that sometimes I might hear a sound (e.g. children playing in the playground). Next, I become aware of a thought that says "that reminds me of when the children were at kindergarten". Again, I notice thoughts arise that claim a causal link between these two arising phenomena.

So going by your sentence, “Yet a thought might arise which appears to look back at a sequence of thoughts and post-rationalise a logical sequence" - you saw that this sentence is just another thought in the random flow of thoughts as well?

Yes, exactly

So, you have seen there is no logic to thoughts, they just 'come and go' and there isn’t anyone/anything that is creating them or controlling them. It is only another thought that says thoughts are sequenced in logical order.

Yes, again that is my exact experience

Is it not just another thought that appears saying “post-rationalising somehow creates an illusion that there is a logical, rational “I”?

Yes - yet I notice how my illusion of having a separate self seems to lie in the story/ illusion contained in these post-rationalising thoughts. And whilst thoughts cant actually create an illusion of a separate self, I notice how as I am conducting this activity and seeing through the illusion I find the flow of thoughts slowing and increasingly long periods where there is just the flow of direct experience.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ian,

Nice to see that I hadn’t lost you! :)

Thanks for nudging me - children and kids had got in the way slightly. I am still practicing the 'labelling' activity and attempting to stay vigilant to the ongoing flow of sensation and thought.

Unless you send me a quick post saying that something has come up ie work has gotten busier or going away for a few days, sick etc…I will nudge you. It’s good to keep the process going on a daily basis. You don’t need to be vigilant…but just notice. When talking to someone…notice what it actually there (colour, sound, thought, [smell]) and so on.

So there is no actual experience (AE) of “disappointed”, what is really present is label/thought + sensation?

Exactly - that is "my" experience of what is.

There is no “my” experience and a “your” experience. Experience is experience. There are no different ways to experience smell, taste, thought, sensation, colours and sound. There are variations of stories that overlay experience, but experience is experience – just as it is.

How is it known that they were appearing to ‘you’? Can a ‘you’ be found in sound, thought, sensation, colour, taste, smell?

All that can be said is that they arise, form into full view and then disappear. That is all. But I wonder about this notion of "identification". It seems that sometimes "I" am just able to witness these thoughts, and they move gently like clouds in the sky. And other times "I" seem to get more hooked by them.

It is just another thought that says “I am able to witness these thoughts, and they move gently like clouds in the sky, as is “and at other times I seem to get more hooked by them”. Thoughts are just thoughts no matter what they say. The face value of thoughts is AE but what thoughts are ABOUT is fiction/story.

What is the AE of “identification”?
What is the AE of “I”?

And I notice that maybe that is because another thought flows after the first that says "this is happening to me - I want/ don't want this". Or another thought comes that thinks about what the first thought might mean in the 'future', or what happened in the 'past' to lead to this. The other day I noticed, after an argument with my brother, that thoughts appeared where Ian was having a conversation with him in his head. It seems to be these personalised thoughts that create the identification, together with the strong sensations that accompany them.

Yes – nice discovery. The seeming ‘first’ thought is easily seen, but the ‘second’ thought is a little trickier!

Since you saw that thoughts come unbidden, how is it known that after a question was asked that you brought forth the answer……because another thought says so?

Yes that is it. And I am aware that there was no "I" that brought forth the answer...but I notice a thought arises that the answer of 4+4=8 seems to have been 'caused' by the hearing of the question? I struggle to find how to let go of this bit

There is no causal relationship between appearances. For the above to be true, the following must also be true.

1. That there are ‘other people’ who are thinking and formulating thoughts
Can you find 'other people' in AE?
2. That you are a ‘person’ who is decoding sound into thought. Sound is just sound…what exactly is it that says the sound was that of a voice asking a question? (A question is nothing but another thought).
Can you find 'Ian' in AE?
3. That the question/thought “what is 4+4 =” and the thought “answer is 8” has meaning, whereas the thought ‘waggawaggawagga’ doesn’t.
Do the thoughts “what is 4+4 =” and thought “answer is 8” and “waggawaggawagga” contain any actual experience?

Cause and effect" consists PURELY of thoughts about other thoughts, it has absolutely no reference in the actual experience.
What is the AE of causality?

Cause and effect is a belief in time….we will look at time later on.

How is it known that a "thought appeared after an external sound or sensation" ?

So it seems that sometimes I might hear a sound (e.g. children playing in the playground). Next, I become aware of a thought that says "that reminds me of when the children were at kindergarten". Again, I notice thoughts arise that claim a causal link between these two arising phenomena.

Sound says nothing about cause and effect - only thought says that the thought is caused by the sound.

So going by your sentence, “Yet a thought might arise which appears to look back at a sequence of thoughts and post-rationalise a logical sequence" - you saw that this sentence is just another thought in the random flow of thoughts as well?

Yes, exactly

Great :)

Is it not just another thought that appears saying “post-rationalising somehow creates an illusion that there is a logical, rational “I”?

Yes - yet I notice how my illusion of having a separate self seems to lie in the story/ illusion contained in these post-rationalising thoughts. And whilst thoughts cant actually create an illusion of a separate self, I notice how as I am conducting this activity and seeing through the illusion I find the flow of thoughts slowing and increasingly long periods where there is just the flow of direct experience.

There is no “my illusion of having a separate self”. There is no difference between “my” and “separate self” – they are both the same thing (they refer to a ‘person’) and do not exist.

Thought may claim that there is a person present right now. And that person is who you are.
But just look - are you aware of a ‘person’ at all?
Or are you only aware of actual experience?
What is the AE of a ‘person’?