Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

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Marvster
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Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby Marvster » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:03 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

Been on a journey which started 4 years ago, and knew about LU a couple of years back but was too afraid to sign up because of fear, after an intensive year of questioning and recent looking at experience, some very odd things seem to be occurring, and somehow found myself at the forum linked from various bloggers 'vanishing narrative' I think... so now willing to give it a try

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

I am looking to see what is really going on, to put an end to running away, and to see through the illusion of self; to get past that intense fear that makes me want to turn away from this.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

4 years ago, I was walking down the road after work and suddenly who I was disappeared completely, I was in shock, I stood at the side of the Road for a couple of minutes, it was as though who I was got sucked out of me totally. I knew who I was supposed to be, but that was nowhere to be found. Out the other side I decided that I had been living a lie and needed to find out who I really was. I knew nothing about non-duality, the false self etc. My whole life turned upside down after this and I decided I needed to find truth for myself. a person living in the same house introduced me to Alan Watts, Mooji, Gangaji etc. I decided to take apart all I had been taught and look to see what is real. Have followed various teachers via youtube and sometimes at talks here in the UK. did home-made Vipassana meditation retreat in 2014, saw glimpse that I am not thoughts. Did vipassana on-site this year and at the end realised that everything I ever was was a hoax, another very brief but distressing glimpse, since then (july 2015), have been just watching, but very recently, these small feelings occur, I am not me, I am not me.. that's how they feel, it sounds totally silly, but I don't really know how to explain... this in particular made me decide it's time to pursue this.... despite the terror I've been feeling

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:34 pm

Hi Marvster,

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING THOROUGHLY and when responding please acknowledge that you have read this thoroughly and agree to the ground rules. Please be aware that the ground rules are not a suggestion, they do serve a purpose in the exploration of seeing through the illusory ‘self’.

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist in exploring the illusion of the separate self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers.
I will ask questions and set you some exercises for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. This will be the focus. There are no right or wrong answers and there is nobody judging you. You can't get this wrong.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
SOME GROUND RULES:-
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts).
Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is actual/direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
TECHNICAL SUPPORT
- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- PLEASE LEARN to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below :

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

- The site has a habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere (word document), then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

If you are happy to agree to the above and have me as your guide, we can start the process.


Warm regards
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby Marvster » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:31 pm

Hi Kay,

thank you for accepting the request for a guide,

I have re read the disclaimer, the page explaining what 'experience' actually is, and understand the ground rules you've given so far...

so ready to go

Marvster (my real name is Marvin if you wish to use this)

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:09 pm

Hi Marvin,

Nice to meet you. :)

I am here for the duration of seeing through the separate ‘self’, as long as you continue to LOOK. LOOKING is the key to this process. I can only point you to LOOKING but it is up to you to LOOK.

LOOKING isn’t difficult. “Looking” is just plain looking to what is here right now. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. It’s noticing sound, taste, smell, sensation and colours (images) to see what is readily available and has always been; as well as noticing thought/s - not thinking, but noticing or being ‘aware’ of thought/s. Thoughts tend to pull you away from looking directly, as by directly looking into what you experience, you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".

Can you tell me a little about the intense ‘fear’ that you have written about? Is it related to seeing through the illusory ‘self’ and what may happen when this is seen?

Could you also please answer the 5 following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?


Please answer all questions (in blue) and highlight each questions being answered using the quote function.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby Marvster » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:03 pm

Can you tell me a little about the intense ‘fear’ that you have written about? Is it related to seeing through the illusory ‘self’ and what may happen when this is seen?
Hi Kay

When I read your first phrase in your response; ‘I am here for the duration’, there was a hit of fear again..
I was thinking about the question this morning and some answers came up.

FEAR of being found out (perhaps about this little ‘dark secret’ about no-self and trying to see through the illusion)
FEAR of being completely alone in the world (as a result of being perceived as a crack-pot)
FEAR that there is no escape from something (I don’t know what though)
FEAR that everything I knew is wrong.

I assumed it was just one thing, but on examination, it almost seems to be bouncing around to different reasons, but they all seem to be about fear of ‘what will happen’ if the illusion is seen through?

Even as I write now, I can feel this buzz of fear, the physical reaction to it, flowing around from head to toe...

Still thinking about the answers to the five questions and will post later on.

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby Marvster » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:32 pm

How will Life change?
Life is unlikely to change, but feelings about life might do, the nature of relationships will change also, as seeing that there’s no one to control other people’s opinions of self will cause me to let go of trying to ‘please’ people, or manipulate them into approving of or loving me.
How will you change?
I will be more relaxed, and engage in less ‘performing’ in social situations
And will feel less ‘challenged’ by people who express a radically different perspective than one I express. Also I feel I will be less judgmental of people and be able to accept what they are.
What will be different?
There will be very few questions about why life is a certain way, and when these arise it will be seen that answers are just that, answers, concepts that are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

What is missing?
I struggled with this one: on looking right now, I cannot say what is missing, in fact it seems that NOTHING is missing, I’m not saying this because I think it’s the right answer to give, but really, nothing is missing, this is pretty confusing. There is a little bit of aching, of wanting something? But I don’t know what, there’s just nothing specific coming up.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
I would like to be able to finally come home, to stop running, to stop chasing the ‘next’ moment.
To be able to know ‘how’ to look and get past my fear of doing so

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:16 pm

Hi Marv,

Thank you for letting me know about your fears. Now you are also aware of what fears may hinder your LOOKING. When you read my responses please notice what arises for you – further fear or resistance, disappointment, anger, sadness, joy...whatever, and just let me know.
FEAR of being found out (perhaps about this little ‘dark secret’ about no-self and trying to see through the illusion)
FEAR of being completely alone in the world (as a result of being perceived as a crack-pot)
FEAR that there is no escape from something (I don’t know what though)
FEAR that everything I knew is wrong.

I assumed it was just one thing, but on examination, it almost seems to be bouncing around to different reasons, but they all seem to be about fear of ‘what will happen’ if the illusion is seen through?
The word/label ‘fear’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and is not the AE of fear
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the actual experience (AE) of sensation and is not the AE of fear
The colours labelled ‘Marv/body’ is the actual experience (AE) of colours and is not the AE of a body called Marv who is experiencing fear.

There has never been a separate ‘person/entity/individual’ called Marv, so what could possibly happen? It’s not that anything can happen to you, there was never a you in the first place! Seeing through the Illusion of "I" doesn't mean you will lose the "I" and with it your whole identity. The "I" doesn't exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.
How will Life change?
Life is unlikely to change, but feelings about life might do, the nature of relationships will change also, as seeing that there’s no one to control other people’s opinions of self will cause me to let go of trying to ‘please’ people, or manipulate them into approving of or loving me.
There has never been a separate entity/individual at all - ever, so how can there be ‘other people’? There has never been anyone or anything that has ever controlled anyone or anything either – including ‘life’. People pleasing, manipulation, approval and love are all just thought stories and are pure fiction.
How will you change?
I will be more relaxed, and engage in less ‘performing’ in social situations
And will feel less ‘challenged’ by people who express a radically different perspective than one I express. Also I feel I will be less judgmental of people and be able to accept what they are.
There is no “I” who is engaging with anyone and no others to engage with. The word/label “I” is a thought and in and of themselves are meaningless. There is no “I” doing, controlling, deciding or thinking.
What will be different?
There will be very few questions about why life is a certain way, and when these arise it will be seen that answers are just that, answers, concepts that are to be taken with a pinch of salt.
There is no ‘person’ living a life. Life is not happening to or for anyone…life just is. Everything that you have written and I have written are all just concepts. Questions are just thoughts labelled 'questions'.
What is missing?
I struggled with this one: on looking right now, I cannot say what is missing, in fact it seems that NOTHING is missing, I’m not saying this because I think it’s the right answer to give, but really, nothing is missing, this is pretty confusing. There is a little bit of aching, of wanting something? But I don’t know what, there’s just nothing specific coming up.
There is no separate individual so what exactly is it that could be confused, aching or wanting something else? There has never been anything missing. Experience have never been incomplete...it just IS.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
I would like to be able to finally come home, to stop running, to stop chasing the ‘next’ moment.
To be able to know ‘how’ to look and get past my fear of doing so
Looking is simple. It doesn’t require any special skills. ‘Looking” is just plain looking to what is here right now. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. It’s noticing sound, taste, smell, sensation and colours (images) to see what has always been readily available; as well as noticing thought/s - not thinking, but noticing or being ‘aware’ of thought/s. Thoughts tend to pull you away from looking directly, as by directly looking into what you experience, you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".

By the way, I use the terminology actual experience (AE) instead of direct experience (DE,) but they both mean the same thing.

When responding, please remember to use the quote function to highlight what you are responding to.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby Marvster » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:58 pm

The word/label ‘fear’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and is not the AE of fear
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the actual experience (AE) of sensation and is not the AE of fear
After reading this paragraph and looking again, realised ‘OMG shit’ this sensation buzzing around the body is not fear, it is sensation; now the sensations are really intensifying, buzzing really hard everywhere, buzzing and buzzing and buzzing… heaviness, twitching eyes, gritted teeth..

The colours labelled ‘Marv/body’ is the actual experience (AE) of colours and is not the AE of a body called Marv who is experiencing fear.
After reading this and realising that there is no such sensation as ‘Marv’ or 'Me', the almost immediate response was to get up and walk away from the desk, from the computer, it literally felt like wanting to run away, I could picture it, but something made it not happen, there was a panic… like a child escaping impulsively… this is weird, there’s no such sensation as Marvin, my GOD, it’s a bit baffling… I actually feel like a fool at the moment, I actually started laughing just then.

There has never been a separate entity/individual at all - ever, so how can there be ‘other people’? There has never been anyone or anything that has ever controlled anyone or anything either – including ‘life’. People pleasing, manipulation, approval and love are all just thought stories and are pure fiction.


Felt very disoriented and dizzy (vertigo feelings) with the phrase approval and love are just thought stories and pure fiction, it feels like cherished thoughts/explanations are being pulled from under my feet and are just a joke… pure fiction almost seems like something that should offend, it doesn't just leaves feelings of shock…

There is no “I” who is engaging with anyone and no others to engage with. The word/label “I” is a thought and in and of themselves are meaningless. There is no “I” doing, controlling, deciding or thinking.
This is very disturbing, it’s really hard to write in response to this, feels like there is nothing to say, all these assumptions, busted, brutalised… I feel like asking, what is real? Is any of it real?
this is probably imaginary but feels like being swallowed up by a big hole with no ideas to hold onto.. will continue to read and respond later...

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby Marvster » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:38 pm

Everything that you have written and I have written are all just concepts. Questions are just thoughts labelled 'questions'.
With every reading of the response fear comes up, or shall I say, moments of dizziness, swirling head, muscular tension, deep buzzing, almost vibrating. I keep on getting distracted and taken away from the looking, but keep on coming back to looking again.. also noticed there is very strong resistance to ‘ideas’ that all previous thoughts about ‘me’ ‘other people’ etc is fictitious
to see what has always been readily available;
A little bit unsure by what you mean with the statement to see what has always been readily available… is this something I need to find out for myself?
There is no ‘person’ living a life. Life is not happening to or for anyone…life just is.
Again statements are read, thoughts come up about ‘can this be true?’and I get distracted from ‘looking’…

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby Marvster » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:16 pm

continuing to look...
when looking this odd thing pops up, it seems to be a feeling of me, but I noticed that wherever there is this apparent feeling, there always seems to be a 'thought/idea' along with it.. but looking again, there doesn't seem to be anything substantial there, sensations yes, a bit of tension around the temples and nose area, also, sounds and sensations yes, i.e. stomach rumbles, buzzing legs, heat in feet area, keyboard tapping, floorboards in flat-mate's room next door, loud hoover noise, vision of bright computer screen, dark background barely visible objects, but the 'ME' at the moment of looking seems to be an assumption that 'I must be here because.....' but this has ALWAYS been the assumption.... can't find a logical explanation for why 'I must be here', there isn't a tangible findable thing at the moment, yet there is a conviction that I am something

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby Marvster » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:49 pm

The colours labelled ‘Marv/body’ is the actual experience (AE) of colours and is not the AE of a body called Marv who is experiencing fear.
just laying here in the dark and re reading some of your comments.. and realised that sensations which appear to be where my feet are give absolutely no indication that there is a foot there, it's down there where my feet are supposed to be, but the sensation itself gives no indication of a foot, it's only throbbing sensation, how does this relate to there being no 'I'? I don't know...

sounds like I'm trying to say 'my' sensation of foot; that makes no sense at all,

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:36 am

Hello Marvin,

Wow! You have done some wonderful LOOKING. Thank you! Your commitment really spoke loudly when the seeming ‘fear’ intensified but you stuck with it.
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the actual experience (AE) of sensation and is not the AE of fear
After reading this paragraph and looking again, realised ‘OMG shit’ this sensation buzzing around the body is not fear, it is sensation; now the sensations are really intensifying, buzzing really hard everywhere, buzzing and buzzing and buzzing… heaviness, twitching eyes, gritted teeth..
Look carefully, is there a correlation between thought and sensation? Can a thought really make a sensation occur, or is the sensation just appearing as is the thoughts? Was there a ‘you’ who actually made these thoughts appear in the first place, or did the thoughts just appear?
The colours labelled ‘Marv/body’ is the actual experience (AE) of colours and is not the AE of a body called Marv who is experiencing fear.
I could picture it, but something made it not happen, there was a panic… like a child escaping impulsively… this is weird, there’s no such sensation as Marvin, my GOD, it’s a bit baffling… I actually feel like a fool at the moment, I actually started laughing just then.
There is no “I” that could “feel like a fool”…that is also a thought story and is pure fiction! Being baffled is a great place to be…there is an openness to explore! (Although, there is no separate individual that can feel “baffled” either!)
This is very disturbing, it’s really hard to write in response to this, feels like there is nothing to say, all these assumptions, busted, brutalised… I feel like asking, what is real? Is any of it real?
Thought stories are just that…stories and are not real. Thoughts themselves (the face value/literal thoughts) are actual experience (AE) of thought, but the content of thought is just all story. What is real is raw experience - sound, thought, sensation, colour, smell and taste which is easily overlooked because of thought stories that overlay experience itself.
to see what has always been readily available;
A little bit unsure by what you mean with the statement to see what has always been readily available… is this something I need to find out for myself?
What is readily available or is always here is sound, thought, sensation, taste, smell and colour – these are what are actual experience (AE). When LOOKING with AE this is what is meant. Anything beyond the 5 senses + thought (face value), then it is just a story.
but the 'ME' at the moment of looking seems to be an assumption that 'I must be here because.....' but this has ALWAYS been the assumption.... can't find a logical explanation for why 'I must be here', there isn't a tangible findable thing at the moment, yet there is a conviction that I am something
Terrific! Yes! "Me" is an uninvestigated assumption that there is a separate you that is here living a life! And yes, there a sensations that thought labels as ‘tension around the nose, eyes, forehead and so on, but if you put a finger to the tip of your nose, what is actually there?

You are not nothing, there is just no definable ‘you’ to be anything or nothing.
just laying here in the dark and re reading some of your comments.. and realised that sensations which appear to be where my feet are give absolutely no indication that there is a foot there, it's down there where my feet are supposed to be, but the sensation itself gives no indication of a foot, it's only throbbing sensation, how does this relate to there being no 'I'? I don't know...

sounds like I'm trying to say 'my' sensation of foot; that makes no sense at all,
GREAT LOOKING! Yes, sensation and an image (mental image or sight) are appearing along with a label/thought 'foot’. There is no actual experience of a ‘foot’, what is actually there is a sensation + image (colour) + label. The thoughts ABOUT a ‘foot’ is a thought story.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby Marvster » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:27 pm

Wow! You have done some wonderful LOOKING. Thank you! Your commitment really spoke loudly when the seeming ‘fear’ intensified but you stuck with it.
Everytime there’s a sense of deep fear, there seems to be a thought coming up saying, let it be, just keep looking,
Look carefully, is there a correlation between thought and sensation? Can a thought really make a sensation occur, or is the sensation just appearing as is the thoughts?
Yet again, there has always been the unchallengeable belief/expectation that emotions are the result of thoughts (or sensations follow thought), the challenging of this seems so radical; but I know this was definitely learned/taught some years back and immediately believed as logical. Looking right now, I notice that the sensations have been increasing again, I don’t know if they were already there but unnoticed though or whether they started once I turned to this conversation again.

Ok, just did an experiment and got a shock, now I’m very uncertain about that truth.. OMG.. is this even possible?

I just walked out into an empty room, and tried to ‘think happy thoughts’. Here’s what happened:
  • Happy thoughts
    Seeming change in emotions,
    Felt happy?? Or giddy,
    Then noticed bodily sensations…

Noticed that the sensations are EXACTLY THE SAME as the ones there when FEAR was present… the buzzing was still there and the dizziness… but there ‘seemed’ to be a feeling of happiness…or are the feelings of happiness (let’s call it tickling) simultaneous to the buzzing ???? I don’t know
Just went out and tested again, and a memory came; there were two prolonged experiences bliss (several weeks) during 2014, and one of the BIG underlying phenomena, was this very same ‘BUZZING ALL OVER’ sensation, there were beautiful feelings but there was this buzz… the very same buzz that’s here now amidst fear, so much so I had a blood test done by my Doctor to ensure there was no underlying disease or condition; my point is, the thoughts were ‘very different’ back then…

Does this mean that the idea of ‘feelings follow thoughts’ is BS, just taught, and therefore believed? This ‘looking’ is at times overwhelming and very disorienting… is that even true?

Was there a ‘you’ who actually made these thoughts appear in the first place, or did the thoughts just appear?
Having looked into this over the last year, I reached the conclusion it is impossible for ‘me’ to instigate thoughts, utterly impossible; songs just pop up, thoughts in reaction to events happening, or otherwise just completely random thoughts…
With very recent looking, 2 things are happening. Firstly it feels as if ‘I’ am inside the thought occurring, this is what it feels like the majority of the time. Then there are some occasions when it feels as though thoughts are being heard in a big room, like being in a cave with voices bouncing off the walls or something, those thoughts are there, but they are not from me… they seem disconnected, like the music is not me either, but the general feeling is not the latter.

I will keep looking at this and continue reading your previous responses...

Marv

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby Marvster » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:36 pm

re my comment:
Does this mean that the idea of ‘feelings follow thoughts’ is BS, just taught, and therefore believed?
does this mean that bodily reaction to perceived emotional states is .... learned? and is this even relevant in any way?

I feel as though I'm on a roller-coaster at the moment..

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Re: Despite fear of losing it all, requesting a guide please

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:21 pm

Hi Marvin,
Everytime there’s a sense of deep fear, there seems to be a thought coming up saying, let it be, just keep looking,
Great...just keep sticking to that!

Let’s look further into ‘fear’.

Okay, remember what the actual experience of ‘fear’ is?

The label ‘fear’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE of fear.
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of fear.
The colours labelled ‘Marvin/body’ are the AE of colour and not the AE of ‘a person in fear’.


Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about fear?
Does the label in any way suggest that it is fear or in fear?
Does the sensation labelled ‘fear’ know anything about fear?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that it is fear or in fear?
Do the colours labelled ‘Marvin/body’ know anything about fear?
Do the colours in any way suggest that they are fear or in fear?

So there is no actual experience of ‘fear’? It doesn’t exist. What is actually appearing is label + sensation + colours which thought glues together and calls ‘fear’.

So when next a seeming fearful thought appears and a sensation also appears….do the above.
Just remember to breathe.
Check if the ‘fearful’ thought knows anything about fear.
Check in with the sensation and see if the sensation knows anything about fear…or if there is indeed anything to be found within the sensation itself.
Have a look at what is underneath the sensation to see what is there, if anything.
Underneath the sensation labelled ‘fear’ is there another sensation…if so, what is it labelled as?
And check in with the colours to see if they know anything about fear.

When it is seen that there is nothing there but label + sensation + image…then just allow the raw sensation to be…it will pass on its own.

Let me know how you go.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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