Plateau - in need of a helping hand

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Rbruch23
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:01 pm
Location: São Paulo -Brazil

Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby Rbruch23 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:19 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
Looking back at my life I realize that I always tried to life an spiritual life, thru Buddhism, reiki, meditation and so on. Studying a couple of months ago I found the teaching of Sri Nisargadadatta Maharaj and thru the direct path I experienced a peace that I have never felt before.

With that I dedicated myself to find "I" everyday (even though I know there is no I to be found, for I already am). It's been the most amazing times when I am not disturbed by the ego, the finite and so on.

Since I live in Brazil there aren't many sources on non-duality here and a owner of a blog I really like about it recommended this forum.

I really liked everything I read and saw.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I expect to breakthrough this plateau where I know how things should be but can't fully experience that because there is so much identification with the ego.

I find myself having fun with my thoughts, with the relations I make in my mind. I know I am not that and shouldn't be so affected by it.

The funny thing is that I can only remember good experiences or a feeling of well being recently with my thoughts, but there are moments that anxiety will come, negativism and things like that.

I guess the point is that I expect help from you guys to stop feeding the ego, cause i feel it's like a puppy, sometimes it gets happy and I am happy, sometimes it gets angry and I am stuck with anger because I still have an intimate relationship with it.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I practiced zazen for about 5 years, but never could understand the truth. So I tried Reiki (the exercise of compassion to others and their meditation would help me get freed from myself). But even that not as direct as It needed to be. Then I practice vipassana for a long time, and guess for good at it, but never got the freedom i seeked.

In 2016 I found non-duality and started practicing it, and guess something snaped and I felt the peace and the love I longed for.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready): 11

User avatar
Rbruch23
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:01 pm
Location: São Paulo -Brazil

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby Rbruch23 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:54 pm

Hi,

I was reading again my previous post and realized how poorly written it was.

I promise I will pay more attention on the next ones.

Sorry about that.

Cheers
Andy

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby DanielP » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:05 pm

Hi Rbruch23,

My name is Daniel from Canada. Nice to meet you! :) What name should I use in our exchange?

Here is our disclaimer?

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few quick guidelines: it makes it easier if you try to post daily/regularly, if not, just post to say when you plan to answer, I will do the same; also please set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together.

If you could confirm you're ok with me guiding you, and that you read the disclaimer - then we shall begin :)

All the best,

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Rbruch23
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:01 pm
Location: São Paulo -Brazil

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby Rbruch23 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:54 pm

Hello Daniel,

I am more than ok to have you as my guide, and you can call me Andy.

I am also 100% ok with the guidelines and totally agree with them.

Ready to rock! :)

Cheers
Andy

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby DanielP » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:57 pm

Hi Andy,

I'm glad to see how enthousiastic you are about this :) Ready to rock too!

The dialogue that we will have is quite simple. I'll give you some things to inquire about. I'll comment or will ask some more questions related to your answer. ok?

Please answer to the best of your ability based on your experience. We're not looking for a philsosophical or an intellectual answer. We're looking from the answer that comes from your felt or living experience. Simple stuff.

Here's a few things that stands out from your first post.
...thru the direct path I experienced a peace that I have never felt before.
Could you try to describe this experience?
It's been the most amazing times when I am not disturbed by the ego, the finite and so on.
'I am not disturbed by the ego'
So there is an 'I' which is disturbed by another 'I' called the 'ego'?
I practiced zazen for about 5 years, but never could understand the truth.
'...never could understand the truth'
How do you know?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Rbruch23
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:01 pm
Location: São Paulo -Brazil

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby Rbruch23 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:43 pm

Alright, I started to write this answer at lunch, if anything changes I'll point it out while I write.

I'm kinda of new on this forums things, so I don't know how to quote like you, so I'll answer your questions in order:

1st question: describe my experience:
It will be fairly easy I guess to describe it now, because I am in it. I guess the best way to put is non-identification with anything that it is not my awareness or what I am. To put exactly in the experience field I can say that I am typing this answer aware that I am doing it, knowing that I am not the words, I am not the thoughts that come exactly as I put them. There is no identification to the problems that have to be solved in my inbox and no identification to the solutions that appear. I mean there is no I solving it or answering it, it's just happening. Life is happening and I am life, no struggle, no conflict, no battles with anything. Even the concerns I expressed on my post are not here right now.

2nd question (loved this one!!!) : I being disturbed by another I
its curious because I am aware of what is happening when I get carried away with ego, there's is just a pleasure letting it take where it wants sometimes. I'll try to put an example that motivated me, for instance to start this thread: I'm going to be a father soon (Yaaaay :D), and I start to wonder of how my kid will be in 5,10, 15 years from now (I can't help to smile while I write this, because is so evident that it's an illusion). So I get carried away with the images, sensations, feelings and words. It's like I know that it is a movie and I keep putting me in as a lead always. What sometimes frustrates me (who is there to be frustrated, right?) is that I make the question "to whom this thoughts appear?" And there is a moment of emptiness, space, silent, but it's so brief, that the movie get me away again.

What I don't like about this is that it kind of makes me feel that I is something that I have to summon and its not it. It gives me sense of struggle, which I know is not it either. How can I say it's not? Because right now I am, and didn't have to do anything for it, no struggle, no fights.

So, there is no I there is the mind being entertained and I is watching it I guess.

3rd question: zazen and vipassana how did I know I couldn't find the truth
Looking now at how I practiced zazen or vipassana I have the feeling that I was trapped in a cage with a hundred lions trying to calm them all, and recognizing as lions. I was too identificated with a body, it's sensations, the breath, thoughts, and never put the emphasis on the observer, the one who sees them and who I really am. I would get the peaceful feeling I mentioned above but I was by effort or a consequence of the hour and hours of practice. It was like renting a car and driving thousand miles just find myself, the driver, inside.
That's why I think that non-duality and self inquiry made such an impact, because it made me return the car, sit and be myself the destination.

It's been a couple of hours since I started answering the question (been writing little by little), and the wholeness feeling stays still. Even after a meeting where a lot of talking involved, there's peace, but I got to remind me of who was worried if the meeting went well or not. And there's a point in the week that even this question is not enough and I get caught up with thinking, problems, planning.

Off topic: since English is not my native language, and I'm writing almost like a flow of consciousness, please let me know if it's bad or not that understandable. I'll find a way to make it better!

Cheers
Andy

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby DanielP » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:32 am

Hi Andy,
...since English is not my native language, and I'm writing almost like a flow...
English is not my native language either so please join the club :). Also your writing is perfectly fine.
...I don't know how to quote like you, so I'll answer your questions in order
If you want to use the quote function, here is how:
Select the text you want to quote, copy, clic on 'Quote', then paste...
Describe your experience.
It will be fairly easy I guess to describe it now, because I am in it. I guess the best way to put is non-identification with anything that it is not my awareness or what I am. To put exactly in the experience field I can say that I am typing this answer aware that I am doing it, knowing that I am not the words, I am not the thoughts that come exactly as I put them. There is no identification to the problems that have to be solved in my inbox and no identification to the solutions that appear. I mean there is no I solving it or answering it, it's just happening. Life is happening and I am life, no struggle, no conflict, no battles with anything. Even the concerns I expressed on my post are not here right now.
Thank you for sharing Andy. At this stage, I'm going to make two comments.
What we're doing here has nothing to do with being in a feeling good state at all times. You are aware of that right?
In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
So there is an 'I' which is disturbed by another 'I' called the 'ego'?
I'm gonna save this one for later :)
how do you you didn't find the truth?
Looking now at how I practiced zazen or vipassana I have the feeling that I was trapped...
That's not what I wanted to point at when I asked this question. Let me rephrase:
When you say that you didn't find the thruth, this seems to suggest that you know what thruth is, but is that so? Do you really know what thruth is?
It's been a couple of hours since I started answering the question, and the wholeness feeling stays still...
Everything comes and go, is that also your experience?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Rbruch23
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:01 pm
Location: São Paulo -Brazil

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby Rbruch23 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:02 pm

Hi Daniel,

great to see you again!!!

Really like where this is going, thank you for you patience and for taking your time to do this.
If you want to use the quote function, here is how:
Select the text you want to quote, copy, clic on 'Quote', then paste...
Thank you!!!!
What we're doing here has nothing to do with being in a feeling good state at all times. You are aware of that right?
I understand what you say as far as feeling goes. I´ll have to go to the permanent questions to make myself clear on this one, so I´ll complete when we talk about permanence.

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
'I' am permanent, the awareness. The "seer' is always here. Any other thing like feelings, sensations, thoughts and so on are not.

I'm gonna save this one for later :)
Ok! No problem!

When you say that you didn't find the thruth, this seems to suggest that you know what thruth is, but is that so? Do you really know what thruth is?
Wow. this one is powerfull! Going from the experience point of view: maybe truth isn't the word that best describes what I meant, but let's stick to it for the sake of argument. There is no truth per se. I can't say that I know the truth because there is no truth to be known. What I know from experience is that there is an 'I' and there is what the 'I' is aware, like thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc. This realization is what I meant as truth. The anxiety that was felt when you aswered is not 'I', neither is the mind who put the experience in sentences or the fingers that put these words on the paper.
Concluding: I don't think that there is anything to be true of.

Everything comes and go, is that also your experience?
Yes. I understand the impermanence of everything. I guess this is something I understood with meditation in general. The thoughts, feelings, emotions, people, situations all will pass. As I put earlier, the 'I' is permanent. Even though I might get caught in thoughts I know that the 'I' is there.

Cheers
Andre

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby DanielP » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:29 pm

Hi Andy,

Great talking to you too!
Really like where this is going, thank you for you patience and for taking your time to do this.
My pleasure :)
What we're doing here has nothing to do with being in a feeling good state at all times. You are aware of that right?
I understand what you say as far as feeling goes. I´ll have to go to the permanent questions to make myself clear on this one, so I´ll complete when we talk about permanence.
Please note that I'm not interrested in what others (teacher, teaching) have to say about this, i'm only interrested in YOUR experience! Are you looking for a 'permanently' blissful state 'cause this is what the teachings are saying? Have you ever experience a permanently blissful state? Is that your living experience?
In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
'I' am permanent, the awareness. The "seer' is always here. Any other thing like feelings, sensations, thoughts and so on are not.
Is that you or the teaching speaking? Again, I'm not interrested in what others have to say about this. We are looking for a first hand experience here.
Is it your experience that 'YOU' are permanent? What 'YOU' are you talking about?
When you say that you didn't find the thruth, this seems to suggest that you know what thruth is, but is that so? Do you really know what thruth is?
Going from the experience point of view: maybe truth isn't the word that best describes what I meant, but let's stick to it for the sake of argument...
'from the experience point of view'. Is there another point of view? Are you not always IN an experience? I mean THIS one? Can you be OUTSIDE of the experience you're having right now?
There is no truth per se. I can't say that I know the truth because there is no truth to be known.
Again, how do you know?
What I know from experience is that there is an 'I' and there is what the 'I' is aware, like thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc.
This one way of seeing it yes but does it comes from the teaching or your experience? Youre having thoughts right now yes? Are they not your thoughts?
This realization is what I meant as truth. The anxiety that was felt when you aswered is not 'I', neither is the mind who put the experience in sentences or the fingers that put these words on the paper.
Teaching or experience?
Everything comes and go, is that also your experience?
Yes. I understand the impermanence of everything. I guess this is something I understood with meditation in general. The thoughts, feelings, emotions, people, situations all will pass. As I put earlier, the 'I' is permanent. Even though I might get caught in thoughts I know that the 'I' is there.
What are you refering to when you say 'I'? In your experience, what is this permanent 'I'? Please show it to me!

Kindly

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Rbruch23
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:01 pm
Location: São Paulo -Brazil

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby Rbruch23 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:59 am

Hi Daniel,

Let's rock!
Are you looking for a 'permanently' blissful state 'cause this is what the teachings are saying? Have you ever experience a permanently blissful state? Is that your living experience?
Actually, since we last spoke, especially about the permance/impermance of things, I realized that there is no permanent blissful state. I experience a permanent awareness, only that. There was an expectation when we started, especially about peace, now there is not, because 'I' am not peace. 'I' is just ´I', and that´s enough.
Is it your experience that 'YOU' are permanent? What 'YOU' are you talking about?
I am talking about the 'I' that is aware of everything, always. For example: every action I took today, from waking up, to making breakfast, answering your e-mail, going to work, talking, etc. 'I' was always there. Actually, there was never a moment where 'I' wasn´t here.
of seeing it yes but does it comes from the teaching or your experience? Youre having thoughts right now yes? Are they not your thoughts?
Comes from experience. There are thoughts, sometimes many, sometimes few, sometimes none. They are not mine, they are simply thoughts. They come and go as they like or as I fuel them with my attention. I wouldnt say this was easy to fully experience it, but these few days without reading any spiritual teachings, our talks and more attention to everything helped a lot.
What are you refering to when you say 'I'? In your experience, what is this permanent 'I'? Please show it to me!
I refer to this awareness, to this seer that is always paying attention to everything. a finger hits a keyboard, a letter appears on the screen, a noise, a heart beat, a thought, it is aware of everything and have always been. It can´t be shown. If we were face to face right now, would be a long silenced pause, as it´s being in front of the computer.

There were a lot of points about the teaching or the experience.
All we talked about to this point was experience. I don´t know if the way I put it here makes it sound like a parrot or something, wich I understand if it does. If there´s a way to do it differently so there are no doubts of whats experience or what is not, lets try it.

Cheers
Andy

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby DanielP » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:11 pm

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your answers.

As a guide at LU, I'm not here to suggest or not, certain teachings. But I happen to know quite well the teachings that uses the same wording as you do. And what bugs me right now is that the wording of your answers is so similar to that of the teaching, that it makes difficult for me to see if they are coming from experience or from a well learnt lesson.

So I am going to ask you to reword your experience without using some words. The word 'I', consciousness and awareness. Describe your experience in any other way but don't use these words.

Here are the questions:

You are talking about a permanent 'I', always aware, that would be the seer of all experience. In your direct experience,

What are you refering to when you say 'I'?
In your experience, what is this permanent 'I'?
Is it there 24/7?
Do you experience a seer 24/7?
You understand that if its not there 24/7, it cannot be said to be permanent right?

What is the relationship between this permanent 'I' and thoughts or any other experience? Is it separate from it? And if so how?
You seem to make a marked distinction between the 'I' that is aware and that which it is aware of.

Kindly

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Rbruch23
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:01 pm
Location: São Paulo -Brazil

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby Rbruch23 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:03 am

Daniel,

Hello!

I agree with your concern and really like what you asked.

So here we go.
What are you refering to when you say 'I'?
In your experience, what is this permanent 'I'?
Is it there 24/7?
Do you experience a seer 24/7?
You understand that if its not there 24/7, it cannot be said to be permanent right?
I am referring to this thing that I feel is inside of me and let me know of everything that is going on. For instance, I am sitting down, breathing, sensing something in my chest, feeling my right ear burn a little and my back hurting a little bit on the chair. I am referring to this attention that shows me all these things.

When I didn't win a case today, 'I' was that thing that made me know of the anger in my chest, my legs unstable, my arms crossing but I was just watching it, noting that this all was going on.

In this sense I realized all this, and realized that it will pass - as it did.

Even though I felt all of this, I was not actually angry, i was just observing how anger grew and it passed away, my arms were uncrossed, my legs was relaxed. And anger went away, giving space to fear, then to frustration, then to silence, and to calmness. And that's it. As I was observing all of this, I didn't actually get carried away. I was always observing, aware of my reactions, seeing things come and go.

The permament 'I' is this attention that is always here. I can´t remember of a time where a thought appeared and I didnt know of (don´t remember a moment where I said: wow, I didnt know I was thinking that!), or a moment when I touch something and didn´t feel anything.

all the stuff that I saw, heard, felt, thought today was noted, observed, sensed, felt, by me. This is why I say it´s always here.

About the 24/7, I 'know' that it is there, but the sensation is kind of lesser a couple of times. For example, while driving back home a thought of how my wife was popped up, and I started to imagine how it would be If I did a couple of things differently, maybe we would live in a better place or something, and I saw her, I imagined another home and so on. Suddenly I realized what was going on and asked, who wants a better life? What is wrong with this one? What do I fear? until I reached a question: Who really wants anything? And silence came, and I got out of the movie, and there was no thoughts, just a good feeling of everything was ok.

I understand that if It´s not there 24/7 it cannot be permanent.
Even when I get immersed in thoughts, or memories for a few instants I still feel that it is there, the attention is there, because I know exactly what image I saw, or what I felt or what I sensed as if I was remembering it, not insede the memory, as a third person noting.

I tried to bring you theses examples, trying to put in words these experiences, and today was full of happenings and It was really interessing how everything went.

Cheers
Andy

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby DanielP » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:22 am

Hi Andy,

Thank you.
I am referring to this thing that I feel is inside of me and let me know of everything that is going on...
Ok
When I didn't win a case today, 'I' was that thing that made me know of the anger in my chest...
Ok
Even though I felt all of this, I was not actually angry, i was just observing how anger grew and it passed away...
Ok
I was always observing, aware of my reactions, seeing things come and go.
Ok
All the stuff that I saw, heard, felt, thought today was noted, observed, sensed, felt, by me. This is why I say it´s always here...
But saying that it is always here is only a matter of speech, right?
About the 24/7, I 'know' that it is there, but the sensation is kind of lesser a couple of times. For example, while driving back home a thought of how my wife was popped up, and I started to imagine how it would be If I did a couple of things differently, maybe we would live in a better place or something, and I saw her, I imagined another home and so on. Suddenly I realized what was going on and asked, who wants a better life? What is wrong with this one? What do I fear? until I reached a question: Who really wants anything? And silence came, and I got out of the movie, and there was no thoughts, just a good feeling of everything was ok.
From what I understand here, you are talking about having sometimes the impression to be more in the movie then at other times. Is that right?

Next I'm going to ask you to do a little experiment.

You will need more or less 20 minutes for this, plus a pen & a piece of paper.

First write down what it is you are experiencing right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of what's here now.

Something like this:
I am sitting in a chair. I am hearing the television. I am typing these words...

Do this for 5-10 minutes. Feel the body, are there any sensations of contraction, relaxation?

Then for next 5-10 minutes do exactly the same things without using the words I and me. Just plain description of the experience as it is happening using only verbs:
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the television...

Again feel what is happening in the body. Contraction, relaxation?

Now compare the two ways to label experience and tell me which one describes your experience better, which on feels truer?

Regards

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal

User avatar
Rbruch23
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:01 pm
Location: São Paulo -Brazil

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby Rbruch23 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:31 am

Hi Daniel,

I´ll be happy to do this!

I´ll post something around the same time as my last post ok?

See you soon!

Cheers
Andy

User avatar
DanielP
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:19 am
Location: Canada

Re: Plateau - in need of a helping hand

Postby DanielP » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:41 pm

Great Andy,

Talk to you later.

Daniel
Le but est seulement d'être - Just to be is the goal


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest