Seeing reality as it is

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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zarina
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Seeing reality as it is

Postby zarina » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:46 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I want to see through the illusion of the small self. It is causing so much unnecessary misery. I am more and more seeing how this breaking through the delusion is possible, and a strong urge is arising to truly see reality as it is.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this:
I am looking to be free from the constant wanting and not wanting of the egoic self. The self-protection, the greed, the aversion, the delusion, the self-talk that creates this "me". I am looking to see truth, to see the simple truth of reality which often seems not very far away. I seek to break free of the heavy concepts and constant thinking of the mind.
At this exact moment, I don't have any expectations (this feels surprising as high expectations have seemed to hinder my meditation practice in the past, creating doubts and insecurity). There is some anxiety about this process; namely that expectations will arise and create overwhelm. However, I have a deep desire to be free, to have peace, to live a life in which I help and don't hurt others.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have practiced vipassana meditation since 2008. I began in the Goenka tradition. I have since practiced with a number of different teachers. In the last year and a half or two years, understanding arose that it is indeed possible to be liberated, and since that time I have been practicing vipassana as well as various non-duality teachings. I've gone up and down in regularity and consistency of practice. I see myself sometimes using dhamma books or teachings as a sort of crutch to turn away from my present moment reality, or as a way to self-soothe. Over the past year, the intensity of my practice has increased as well as the desire to break through the delusion of the separate egoic self.

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:14 am

Hi Zarina,

Welcome to LU.

PLEASE READ THIS THE FOLLOWING THOROUGHLY and when responding please acknowledge that you have read this thoroughly and agree to the ground rules.

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist in exploring the illusion of the separate self. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers. I will ask questions and set you some exercises for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. This will be the focus. There are no right or wrong answers and there is nobody judging you. You can't get this wrong.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
SOME GROUND RULES:-
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, image and observed thoughts).
Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is actual/direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
TECHNICAL SUPPORT
- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- PLEASE LEARN to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below :
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
- The site has a habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere (word document), then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

If you willing to agree to the above and have me as your guide, we can start the process.

Could you please answer the 5 following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Kay xxoo
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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zarina
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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby zarina » Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:48 am

Dear Kay,

I have read what you posted thoroughly, and the links you sent, and I agree to the ground rules. Thank you so much for agreeing to guide me.

I am going out of town tomorrow, Friday (to Vancouver, Canada for the weekend and then on a three day meditation retreat). I may have access to email on Saturday, but am unsure, and then won’t have access again until Wednesday night. Is it okay if the next time I post is Wednesday or Thursday of next week? Also, since I will be on a retreat with a meditation teacher, I can't fully follow the rule on no other philosophies/teachings until I return. My apologies for this, I mistakenly thought my message wouldn't be posted until I returned.
How will Life change?
Life itself will not change, but I will change. As I write this thoughts appear “There is no I” and anxiety about writing the “wrong” thing. However, there is an understanding that Life will not change. Or rather, that Life will not be any different than before. There is a sense now that life just is.
How will you change?
There will be movement towards "me" being a part of life, part of the flow, without resistance, rather than this feeling of separateness from life, separateness as an entity.
What will be different?
Maybe the sense of the "I" doing something wrong, or that something is wrong, will be gone or will diminish. The difference will be that each moment will be seen for what it is, instead of an imaginary world created by the “me”. The turning away from the present moment which I call resistance may be lessened or gone.
What is missing?
When I first read this and reflected, there was the thought "nothing is missing." There was a felt sense of okayness and space. When I reflect again, the thought that arises is "understanding."
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
When I first reflected, no thoughts arose. Then the thought "I, I, I" without anything after that, and a sensation of pulling. Then again, nothing. Then later the thought, I would not like to obtain anything, I would like to let go of something and understand that the I, the me, is an illusion, and have this insight or realization remain known. And now some self-critical and judgmental thoughts that what I am writing is wrong.

One question - when you say “Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation” -is it okay to read material from the LU website, forums, and the books Gateless Gatecrashers/Look?

Thank you so much Kay.

Zarina

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:04 am

Hi Zarina,

Thank you for letting me know! :) I suggest we don't continue until after you have come back from your meditation retreat. Momentum is an important component of this process as it 'quickens' the LOOKING, and LOOKING is the method with which the illusory 'self' is seen through -hence the ground rule of posting daily.

Let me know when you are back and are ready to proceed.

Kay
xxoo
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby zarina » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:09 am

Hi Kay,

That sounds great. Thank you! I will post again late next week when I am back and ready to proceed.

With gratitude,
Zarina

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:14 am

Hi Zarina,

I only just saw you question.
One question - when you say “Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation” -is it okay to read material from the LU website, forums, and the books Gateless Gatecrashers/Look?
By all means read the book Gateless Gatecrashers and read the articles and other resources on LU's website BUT please refrain from reading the threads on the forum. Reading other people's threads can hinder the process as all guides have their own way of guiding which may create confusion, and an expectation may also arise of what seeing through the illusory 'self' may or may not look like. Once you have seen through the illusion, by all means then you can read as many threads as you like.

I hope this answers your question.

Kay
xxoo
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby zarina » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:21 am

Thank you Kay, it does. I will do as you ask.

My partner is tfarrah, who also just requested a guide. Once we start this process next week, should I also refrain from discussing with her? Apologies if this question sounds basic or ignorant.

With thanks,
Zarina

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:07 am

Great question! I would suggest that you refrain from discussing it...yes. Everyone is different and everyone experiences things differently and has different experiences of seeing through the illusory 'self'. Plus the fact that each guide has their own way of guiding. So as to alleviate doubt, fear, confusion etc...just be with your own process.

Kay
xxoo
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby zarina » Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:40 am

Dear Kay,

I am back from retreat and would like to resume being guided by you. I am looking forward to this process.

I wanted to tell you about an experience that happened last night on the retreat. I had been experiencing a greater level of moment to moment awareness. I saw that there were moments of resistance arising very often - characterized by a physical tension and a kind of clenching of the mind/body - a shutting down of whatever else was about to arise, it seemed. This clenching appeared to cause the awareness to shift to some other object or get caught in a story - essentially, taking the resistance as a sign that whatever was happening was “bad” or I was “doing something wrong” or something. I was able to watch these moments of resistance and the following reaction(s), instead of the attention turning away. At one point, it seemed that resistance was about to arise and there was close awareness, and it felt that I was seeing something painful or that would ordinarily cause resistance begin to arise, and instead of the habitual clenching, awareness just saw instead a flow into the next moment. And then the moment after that, etc. And there was just seeing of the present moment then. And then there was some knowing that there was no separate self, even though everything was arising exactly in the same way, and that everything was just happening. Including the thoughts, including the “directed” thoughts that always seemed before to feel so identified with the “me.” Including the analyzing thoughts which were repeating some of the questions read in Liberation Unleashed material. And that the answers weren’t “me” either. It just seemed like cause and effect, patterns and past coming up. Including all the difficult things that have habitually felt identified with the me - the tension, the clenching jaw, the anxiety, the repetitive thoughts, the anger, etc. Thoughts kept arising, thoughts searching for the separate self, thoughts that used the label “I” and it was quite clear, in a very subtle way, that the “I” was just a label that was arising with thoughts, a habit pattern. It didn’t feel like anything big, it felt very small and there was some waiting for some kind of certainty or clarity, but it actually felt kind of obvious, in a way. The question, “is there a self” or other similar questions would just yield this simple and casual “no”. Something that was on “my” mind before this retreat but after I had already begun reading the Liberation Unleashed stuff, was how it was possible for there to be no “I” or for it to be known that there wasn’t an I and yet for everything to be exactly the same as it was. This was mulled a bit during the retreat prior to last night and the thinking mind would try to make sense of it. And that question isn’t there anymore. And last night when I looked at this question, or it arose, to be precise, it also seemed kind of obvious - oh, so this is how it can be that everything arising doesn’t have a “self” in it but yet continues exactly in the same way. There was also waiting and watching and clinging and thoughts that said: “I hope I don’t lose this, I hope this doesn’t go away, how can I keep this” and all these things too weren’t seen as me or mine but rather just as a habit pattern.

Today, out of retreat, it is really easy for me to use “I” statements, and yet it seems a bit lighter or looser. When I stop and look, the experience of “I” seems different. There is a seeing of strong habit patterns that attach the I to certain experiences - especially the experience of blaming or judgmental thoughts, for example, or experiences of anxiety and tension in interpersonal dynamics. But because it seems to be seen not exactly as “mine” or “I” at every moment, there is also more ease, more being in the present, more just watching the experiences and being okay or even amused by them.

There is doubt and confusion - but not the typical doubt and confusion that has been my experience as arising frequently in meditation practice. There is wondering about the depths of delusion and some feeling of embarrassment around writing this all.

There is this understanding that the “I” is on autopilot and it’s easy to go into that because of such deep habit patterns, but the “I” comes out of it when looked at more closely, and then there’s just looking and seeing. Meditating this evening, there was a lot of joy.

At first, while writing this, there was frustrating at lack of clarity and precision, and judgment about what I was typing. This isn’t there right now, but there are thoughts of “Is this really true?” When re-reading it, and reflecting on the experiences of yesterday and today, there is an urge to change some of the "I"s. There is a desire for "rightness" as well as a desire to be precise, but it doesn't feel right, somehow, to disregard the fact that the "I" keeps naturally asserting itself and feels totally normal too.

I feel very grateful for your guidance.

Zarina

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:54 am

Hi Zarina,
I am back from retreat and would like to resume being guided by you. I am looking forward to this process.
Welcome back and I look forward to working with you.

Thank you for sharing your experience with me, and thank you for your openness and honesty even if thought said it was 'embarrassing'! But then again... what does thought know? It sounds like you are ready to really LOOK to see that there is absolutely no ‘separate self’ and never has been. As you have seen the label “I” is just a thought like any other thought, and in and of itself, it is totally meaningless. For the sake of language and communication purposes "I" is used but the label is not attached to anyone or anything. Like all thoughts, the label "I" comes and goes and has no author or owner.

Just to recap, please write a post everyday, even if it is to say you need more time to look at questions given, or that something has cropped up in life that you need to deal with. Keeping the momentum going is a key component, as is LOOKING, honesty and the absolute burning desire to 'see'.

Although you have already answered these questions, let’s start afresh, so could I ask you to answer them again for me please. Please answer them individually and use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby zarina » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:13 pm

Thank you Kay.

Thought: this is hard. Thought: I don't know how to answer these questions.
How will Life change?
How will Life change?
Life may not change, but the experience or perception of life may change – as flowing, as arising and passing, as okay in the moment.
How will you change?
Thought: how will I change? A feeling of spaciousness arises. Initially, no thoughts arise in response. Then, thoughts like – “you should be able to answer this” and then thoughts of doubt. Then your words, “then again, what does thought know” and feeling of okayness/amusement.

Thought: how will I change? And a thought of determination to answer. Then, the thought “I” arises a few times but nothing comes after. And then a thought or recognition of a habit pattern of pushing or non-acceptance and a thought like, no need to push, just move on.
What will be different?
More acceptance in the present moment, less resistance to the flow. More clear seeing of what is, rather than blocking or pushing away.
What is missing?
When asking that question, there is silence in response. Gentle undulating body sensations came to the fore of awareness, but no thoughts.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
Understanding. Clear seeing in the moment. Then, re-reading and asking again, the thought: relief? And now re-reading again (changes each time): a sense of amusement or light joy when reading the word “relief”.

Frustration came up a few times during this. Examined what frustration is – a thought, a feeling? Behind the feeling was the phrase “I can’t do this!” Looked at that, and again felt a similar feeling of okayness or amusement. Now, after putting it all into the text box, and about to hit submit, a feeling of lightness or joy.
And now, the thought "am I doing this right"? and other attendant neurotic thoughts along with some tension in the middle of the body, clenching in the jaw, faster breathing.

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby zarina » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:39 pm

Also, could I ask what time zone you are in? I am in Seattle, Pacific Standard Time.

With love and gratitude,
Zarina

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:51 pm

Hi Zarina,

I live in Australia…UTC +10.00 (Eastern Standard Time). Just a few breaststrokes across the Pacific Ocean to Seattle! ;)

These 5 initial questions were to have a look at expectations. Expectations hinder seeing through the ‘separate self’ as there is an idea/desire of how or what this should look like and what life should then be like. Seeing through the illusory self is different for everyone; there is no set way that it occurs. Seeing through the illusory self is a recognition and is not a state of mind.

When reading my responses become aware of what arises for you, for example, resistance, fear, frustration, anger, joy, confusion….whatever, and just let me know.

By the way, there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ answers and there is no one here to judge you. The only expectation I have is that when questions are asked, that you LOOK carefully with actual/direct (AE) experience to get your answers and not answer from intellectual preconceived ideas or concepts. It is only through LOOKING that it is seen there is no separate individual that thought refers to as "I".
Thought: this is hard. Thought: I don't know how to answer these questions.
There is no ‘separate individual’ who is thinking or is having thoughts, or is finding “this hard”, or is answering questions, or is indeed doing anything.
How will Life change?
Life may not change, but the experience or perception of life may change – as flowing, as arising and passing, as okay in the moment.
Yes….perception of life seemingly changes, but for no one/person/thing. Perception is just another concept. Life doesn’t change to flowing, arising, passing, or as okay or not okay moments and there isn’t anyone to judge or determine what is okay and not okay! There has never been a separate individual who is or has ever lived a life, therefore how could life change? Flowing, arising, passing and okay moments are all based on an assumption that time exists…and there is no such thing as time.
How will you change?
Thought: how will I change? A feeling of spaciousness arises. Initially, no thoughts arise in response. Then, thoughts like – “you should be able to answer this” and then thoughts of doubt. Then your words, “then again, what does thought know” and feeling of okayness/amusement.
There is no separate individual/entity who is thinking thoughts or who could feel spaciousness arising or have doubts, non-acceptance or okayness. These are all just thoughts appearing but are not appearing to anyone or anything.
What will be different?
More acceptance in the present moment, less resistance to the flow. More clear seeing of what is, rather than blocking or pushing away.
Yep, you guessed it….no ‘person’ to accept more of anything, have less resistance, or blocks or push anything away. This is all story and is happening to, or for, no one/thing.
What is missing?
When asking that question, there is silence in response. Gentle undulating body sensations came to the fore of awareness, but no thoughts.
There is actually no one/thing that is asking questions or who has a body. Thoughts appear as questions but are just thoughts. Sensations appear but they don’t appear to a separate individual who supposedly resides in a body. Have a look throughout the body and tell me where in the body ‘you’ reside.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
Understanding. Clear seeing in the moment. Then, re-reading and asking again, the thought: relief?
Relief from what exactly and understanding for whom….there is no whom!
Frustration came up a few times during this. Examined what frustration is – a thought, a feeling?
There is no ‘person/entity/individual’ that can feel/have or become frustrated.
The label ‘frustrated’ is the actual/direct experience (AE) of thought and is not the actual experience of frustration.
The sensation labelled ‘frustration’ is the actual experience of sensation and not the actual experience of frustration.
The image labelled ‘Zarina’s body’ is the actual experience of an image and not the actual experience of ‘Zarina’s body’ experiencing frustration.
And now, the thought "am I doing this right"? and other attendant neurotic thoughts along with some tension in the middle of the body, clenching in the jaw, faster breathing.
There is no “I” that is or can get anything right or wrong and thoughts are just thoughts. The term ‘neurotic’ is just another label that is appearing to no one. Tension, clenching and faster breathing are all actual experience of sensation and are not happening to anyone or anything.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby zarina » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:22 am

There is no ‘separate individual’ who is thinking or is having thoughts, or is finding “this hard”, or is answering questions, or is indeed doing anything.
Anger arose. Resistance.
There has never been a separate individual who is or has ever lived a life, therefore how could life change?
Relief. Confusion. Resistance. Distraction. Kept wanting to turn away from reading on, do something else. Switched away briefly to my email.
There is no separate individual/entity who is thinking thoughts or who could feel spaciousness arising or have doubts, non-acceptance or okayness
Fear. Then thought: what is fear? then actual experience of sensation: clenching, pulsing. thoughts: is this label fear? this is labeled as fear.
These are all just thoughts appearing but are not appearing to anyone or anything.
Confusion. Wanting. Pushing sensation behind the face.
Have a look throughout the body and tell me where in the body ‘you’ reside.
the sense of "me" sometimes seems to reside towards the back of the physical body. sometimes behind the eyes, behind the nose and mouth - in a sensation of tightness. The physical sensations of tightness and clenching are perceived as a "me" - sometimes. or labelled as a "me" by thought.
There is no ‘person/entity/individual’ that can feel/have or become frustrated.
The label ‘frustrated’ is the actual/direct experience (AE) of thought and is not the actual experience of frustration.
The sensation labelled ‘frustration’ is the actual experience of sensation and not the actual experience of frustration.
The image labelled ‘Zarina’s body’ is the actual experience of an image and not the actual experience of ‘Zarina’s body’ experiencing frustration.
Had to sit with this for a while. sat quietly and watched the way sensations were labelled as feelings or emotions very quickly - and also immediately co-opted as part of a "me" - by thought, I think.
There is no “I” that is or can get anything right or wrong and thoughts are just thought
Spaciousness, hope, joy - but these seem to just be thoughts labelling a particular sensation.

Love,
Zarina

Love,
Zarina

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Re: Seeing reality as it is

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:33 am

Hi Zarina,
There is no ‘separate individual’ who is thinking or is having thoughts, or is finding “this hard”, or is answering questions, or is indeed doing anything.
Anger arose. Resistance.
The good news is, is that there is no separate individual/entity that is feeling angry or resistant! The labels ‘anger’ and ‘resistance’ are just thoughts about a concept labelled ‘anger’ and ‘resistance’! And what thoughts are about are pure fiction.
Fear. Then thought: what is fear? then actual experience of sensation: clenching, pulsing. thoughts: is this label fear? this is labeled as fear.
‘Fear’ is just a word made up of letters which are really images of black squiggly lines! So the actual experience (AE) of the label ‘fear’ is that the written word itself is AE of colour/image, and the sensation called ‘fear’ is the AE of sensation. The label ‘fear’ is the AE of thought (face value of thought as thought) but the concept of ‘fear’ is content of thought - and ALL content of thought is fiction..a story. So ‘fear’ does not exist.

So the meaning given to the label ‘fear’ is a story, pure fiction. What is actually ‘experienced’ is colour/image + sensation + thought which thought glues together and labels ‘fear’.

Can you see this?

Have a look throughout the body and tell me where in the body ‘you’ reside.
the sense of "me" sometimes seems to reside towards the back of the physical body. sometimes behind the eyes, behind the nose and mouth - in a sensation of tightness. The physical sensations of tightness and clenching are perceived as a "me" - sometimes. or labelled as a "me" by thought.

So I want you to close the eyes and look carefully at the sensation behind the eyes, nose and mouth labelled as “me”. Can you find anyone or anything in the sensation?

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is behind eyes, or behind a nose, or behind a mouth? Or is it just sensation which is overlaid by appearing labels/thoughts that name the sensation “eyes”, “nose”, “mouth”, “me”?

There is no such thing as a ‘sense of me’ or a ‘sense of anything’ for that matter. I would like you to LOOK with actual experience (AE).

Looking isn’t difficult. It doesn’t require any special skills. ‘Looking” is just plain looking to what is here right now. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. It’s noticing sound, taste, smell, sensation and colours (images) to see what is readily available and has always been; as well as noticing thought/s - not thinking, but noticing or being ‘aware’ of thought/s.

So have another LOOK with AE and tell me exactly where this “me” is located in the body. And describe what this “me” looks like in precise detail please.

Please answer all questions highlighted in blue text and remember to use the quote function to highlight each individual question being answered.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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