Looking for the key to my cage

[CharliePurchase]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed? *
A friend suggested I take a look at the website and after browsing and also reading Gateless Gatecrashers I decided to look for my own guide

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this? *
Looking for freedom from what I call my 'self imposed' cage.
To be pushed in the correction direction to ask myself the correct questions to manage to do this

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry? *
Have been interested in spirituality since a child, for no reason as far as I am aware, it just was always that way. Started 'contemplating the universe' as a teen, 'what is the point of life, 'where did the world come from' etc. Began reading philosophy which I found particularly frustrating.
Have gone on to read every classic 'spiritual' book from Eckhart Tolle to self help books to Paulo Coehlo to books on astrology, witchcraft, meditation, Kaballah, The Key of Solomon.. The list goes on and on
Searching every text and website I could to find this elusive 'thing' to fill this gaping hole of wanting to know what is missing in my life to make me feel so constantly restless

[Sleepwalker]

Hello CharliePurchase,
Welcome to LU. My name is Michael. Feel free to abbreviate to M if you prefer. Would you like to be called CharliePurchase? Thank you for your introduction. I see from it you have some familiarity with how the process works. If you'd like me to guide you please let me know and we can get started?

[CharliePurchase]

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your response. I am happy for you to guide me

Charlie is fine, it's only a name after all :)

[Sleepwalker]

Charlie, Before we get started a bit of House keeping and Hints :
Please read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

If possible it is best to post once a day even if it’s to say you need more time to respond. In general I will be asking questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require only simple, basic looking. No theories or what you think the “Right” answers might be. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best kept to direct experience, that is what is present to direct perception ( sight , sound, touch , smell and taste, prior to the interpretation of them. Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. You can read the article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience if there is any confusion.

Please learn to use the quote function, see http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:
1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send? Ok.

Lets get going then!
How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the center or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have color or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?

[CharliePurchase]

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the center or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have color or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Hi Michael, I am just trying to work out the quote function so i will post one answer at a time until i am sure it is correct.

Until a few days ago I thought that 'I' was very important and definitely in charge of my life. Since then i have realised that I is actually nothing.. The more i focus on who I is, the less tangible it becomes. Its a bit like waking up from a dream and desperately clinging onto the last remnants of it and you just can't remember, the more you try to remember the more elusive it becomes.

I suppose I would say 'I' is located in my heart.. Because when i think of it my heart races

I understand intellectually that 'i' has no power over my thoughts, feelings and experiences but its hard for 'I' to just relinquish its control after 32 years haha

[CharliePurchase]

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Okay so I've worked out the quote function.

Well i don't think 'i' has any choice about thoughts and feelings, i've tried to stop thoughts and i can't. I can for a a few seconds but no longer.. I'm a yoga teacher so i do meditate and i know how impossible i find it to silence my mind . I think sensations are just 'there' and emotions arise even when i don't want them to.. If 'i' had a choice then i would choose to never be upset or angry but i clearly don't as those emotions still occur.

I think opinions, memories and experiences also just 'occur' and then they are ingrained in us. Some of the opinions I have are definitely from what my parents have told me, or I have learnt at school. So i didn't choose those either, they just got pinned onto me

Similarly character and personality just 'is', i didn't decide to be this way. I suppose after years you pick up these characteristics from life experience, from friends and family and they all stick onto you and then that is who you are. I assume some is genetic so we have no choice over those factors.. I didn't choose my Mother and Father haha

When I concentrate on 'what is the self' i can't think of anything, my mind goes blank. Actually it gives me a headache trying to think of what it is because I don't know.

[CharliePurchase]

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?

When i think of the self I actually can't find it anymore, when i look down i can clearly see my hands moving but they just move without my say so. If i look from the outside at the scenario then i see a woman on a laptop typing. I don't actually feel 'attached' to myself. Mainly i think of it like being a robot.. Its controlled by some other source, if I had control over myself then i wouldn't do half the things I do. I would have no bad habits and i'd be a model citizen, IF i had the choice

I believe all that we have is now, yesterday is gone and tomorrow isn't certain.. Even in one hour isn't guaranteed. I have now, i don't know what will happen past the present moment

Nothing is permanent. Humans die, animals die, trees eventually die. I was thinking maybe houses are permanent but obviously not, bricks and mortar crumble and erode and disappear. Everything has a shelf life

[Sleepwalker]

Hi Michael, I am just trying to work out the quote function so i will post one answer at a time until i am sure it is correct.

Nice job with the quote function Charlie. Nailed it straight away. I’m happy you answered one at a time as there was a lot there.

Until a few days ago I thought that 'I' was very important and definitely in charge of my life. Since then i have realised that I is actually nothing.. The more i focus on who I is, the less tangible it becomes. Its a bit like waking up from a dream and desperately clinging onto the last remnants of it and you just can't remember, the more you try to remember the more elusive it becomes.

Nice seeing and well very well described. Yes the I is No-Thing. Re-Member is a good word to use to describe the process. Can you please focus on something and describe in detail the process by which YOU focus.

I suppose I would say 'I' is located in my heart.. Because when i think of it my heart races

Without going into thought what is your direct experience of heart? When it races is there any"thing" experienced beyond a sensation. Look carefully. With eyes closed describe in DE what’s there. Can you pinpoint its exact location?

I understand intellectually that 'i' has no power over my thoughts, feelings and experiences but its hard for 'I' to just relinquish its control after 32 years haha

YES! Could I that does not exist, and never has, control anything. It amounts to a process of de-constructing what’s been pieced together over a lifetime or ,depending on your world view, many lifetimes. The good news is that demolition always goes much faster than construction. It can literally take no time at all.

[Sleepwalker]

Well i don't think 'i' has any choice about thoughts and feelings, i've tried to stop thoughts and i can't. I can for a a few seconds but no longer.. I'm a yoga teacher so i do meditate and i know how impossible i find it to silence my mind . I think sensations are just 'there' and emotions arise even when i don't want them to.. If 'i' had a choice then i would choose to never be upset or angry but i clearly don't as those emotions still occur.

“I don’t think!”Nice! One of the biggest hindrances to seeing, is all this thinking.”LOOK” closely at who doesn’t think. Do you stop thoughts for a few seconds or is it more true to say thoughts stop for a few seconds? Describe this trying to stop thoughts, burrow down a bit, see what is this desire to stop thoughts? When you said you tried to stop thoughts isn’t that thinking about not thinking. Can it be that YOU can’t silence YOUR mind because there is no you or mind, only thoughts. Yes thoughts and emotions simply arise and pass without control. When you say YOU don’t want them , LOOK deeply into this , what in DE( Direct Experience) does this not wanting consist of? Do the same with anger and upset. The inclination will be toward more thinking to figure this out and that is merely more thought. Just LOOK and SEE! Thoughts arise , YEP, Sensations arise Yep! Aside from thought is there anything wrong with how it is? Any need for it to be different? If there is please describe in DE and great detail that need?

I think opinions, memories and experiences also just 'occur' and then they are ingrained in us. Some of the opinions I have are definitely from what my parents have told me, or I have learnt at school. So i didn't choose those either, they just got pinned onto me

YES! What are opinions other than thought? Memories occur where? Experiences are a different story. If we are talking about past experience aren’t they memories which occur where and when. Present experience just is. Can any number of thoughts change what is here and now.

Similarly character and personality just 'is', i didn't decide to be this way. I suppose after years you pick up these characteristics from life experience, from friends and family and they all stick onto you and then that is who you are. I assume some is genetic so we have no choice over those factors.. I didn't choose my Mother and Father haha

I didn’t decide to be this way. Nice! But did you decide to not decide? In other words where is the I that did not decide? Do you see? Very accurate description of the construction of I. Again, WHO didn’t choose my Mother and Father?

When I concentrate on 'what is the self' i can't think of anything, my mind goes blank. Actually it gives me a headache trying to think of what it is because I don't know.

How can YOU think of anything if thoughts just appear and dis-appear? Please describe in DE how you concentrate. When your mind goes blank how does that feel in comparison to when you are concentrating? WHO knows? Have you ever heard of the monkey that tried to get the fruit out of a jar. When she reached in and grabbed it she couldn’t get her hand and the fruit out at the same time.

[CharliePurchase]

How can YOU think of anything if thoughts just appear and dis-appear? Please describe in DE how you concentrate. When your mind goes blank how does that feel in comparison to when you are concentrating? WHO knows? Have you ever heard of the monkey that tried to get the fruit out of a jar. When she reached in and grabbed it she couldn’t get her hand and the fruit out at the same time.

.

[CharliePurchase]

Sorry I'm a bit heavy handed.. Well i suppose i can't think of anything if thoughts are beyond my control. When i concentrate on an idea it goes almost blank, when my mind goes blank its actually no different. Either way its hard to focus on an idea, it feels beyond my control

I don't think there is a who, when i think who is who i cant find an answer.

No i haven't heard of the monkey but i understand the concept. You can only get one thing out at a time? Or manipulate the jar differently?

[Sleepwalker]

Charlie, Sorry for what? All your answers were honest and very concise.I've enjoyed all of them.And any questions or comments are only meant to encourage more looking and less thinking and never a critique.I forgot to ask what time zone are you in. I'm in US Eastern Standard time.There is whole lot here. I apologize if I overwhelmed with too many questions in the initial post. It seems we're at the last part of what I posted this morning.I'd like to suggest we just go back and take one segment at a time.How would that be?

[CharliePurchase]

Charlie, Sorry for what? All your answers were honest and very concise.I've enjoyed all of them.And any questions or comments are only meant to encourage more looking and less thinking and never a critique.I forgot to ask what time zone are you in. I'm in US Eastern Standard time.There is whole lot here. I apologize if I overwhelmed with too many questions in the initial post. It seems we're at the last part of what I posted this morning.I'd like to suggest we just go back and take one segment at a time.How would that be?

Hahaha Sorry because i keep clicking "post" when i haven't answered all the questions

I am UTC + 02.00 but i am awake outside of typical hours

You didn't overwhelm me at all, I just answered in my own way but i would answer 100 questions its not a problem

If you want to go back and take a segment at a time that does not bother me at all but also being given multiple questions is no problem

[Sleepwalker]

Great. Proceed anyway that's comfortable.

[CharliePurchase]

Okay, so how shall i begin?