The Fog Out

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Ruslan
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The Fog Out

Postby Ruslan » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:51 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?

That sounds like the most difficult question to me.
Instead of saying a lot, I would just say that I want freedom, or perhaps, freedom wants me:)

What are you looking for?

What do you expect from this: Freedom

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?

Starting with 9 years or even earlier.
9-13 years old -Traditional Karate
13-17 - Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Transcendental Meditation
16- present - Qigong.
What else?
Two degrees in Psychology.
In 2012 joined The Oneness Movement by becoming a deeksha giver and attaining some of their Awakening workshops.

How did you find Liberation Unleashed?

On russian social network vk.com - I listened to the audio version of Gateless Gatecrashers and I liked it. A google search brought me to Worthing Friends Meeting House, where a meeting with Ilona took place.

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JonathanR
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:58 am

Hi Ruslan,

Welcome to LU. My name is JonathaR and you probably remember, we met at Ilona's meeting a few weeks ago?

I'm happy to guide you, if you like?

I'm sure that you are familiar with what we do here? We would have a conversation, the purpose of which would be for you to make the realisation of one thing, that there is no 'I', 'me' or 'self'.

Here are a few ground rules...

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"
I am not your teacher, all I can do is point, you look, until clear seeing happens.
In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
Please learn to use the quote function; See http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 (shows how to do it).

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info http://www.liberationunleashed.com/ , our disclaimer and a short video too.
 
If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

What are your expectations for this process?
How will it change you?
How will this feel?


Warm regards,

Jon

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Ruslan
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby Ruslan » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:40 am

Hi Jonathan,

I will be more than happy to have you as my guide through this journey and thank you for that.
Yes, I do confirm that I read the disclaimer and the info on the main page of this forum.

What are my expectations?
I'm a bit thrilled, to be honest almost dizzy with the idea of what it might be.
I have a feeling that it already started there in Worthing during and after the meeting. Afterwards I started to notice more frequently the gap spaces in between thoughts and when I get trapped into a mental story (which happens all the time during the day – every day), it sometimes disassemble itself just by a kind of “looking” at it. And then, another story popes in immediately, of course
And this process of making up stories is draining and compulsive, but I kinda, can’t control it. Only when disassembling happens, it makes me smile and relieved.
How will it change me?
Once I had a “satory” state for two days, I think it might be like that as well as it might be not or even the opposite, it is just guessing as far as I can see my mental fuzz around this question.

How will this feel?
I’m telling to myself that it could be psychedelically powerful at times and full of joy, and it could be as normal and quiet in any other moment, it is just guessing.

I would like to thank you again, Jonathan, for your willingness to guide me.

RUSLAN APOSTOL

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JonathanR
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:46 am

Hi Ruslan,
I will be more than happy to have you as my guide through this journey and thank you for that.
Yes, I do confirm that I read the disclaimer and the info on the main page of this forum.
Thanks for that.
I'm a bit thrilled, to be honest almost dizzy with the idea of what it might be.
I have a feeling that it already started there in Worthing during and after the meeting.
That's very interesting.
Afterwards I started to notice more frequently the gap spaces in between thoughts and when I get trapped into a mental story (which happens all the time during the day – every day), it sometimes disassemble itself just by a kind of “looking” at it. And then, another story popes in immediately, of course
Yes! This 'looking' and noticing the mental story disassembling is very good.

So here is a question:

Who or what gets trapped? Sure, there is a mental story, including one about 'being trapped'. Where is the one that is trapped?
And this process of making up stories is draining and compulsive, but I kinda, can’t control it.
That is also intereting, isn't it? Look for the one that could 'control' it. Is there such a one?
Once I had a “satory” state for two days, I think it might be like that as well as it might be not or even the opposite, it is just guessing as far as I can see my mental fuzz around this question.
It's good that you don't have a fixed idea of 'how it should be'. How it will be experienced can't be guessed or known, so, not being able to guess is no problem at all.
I’m telling to myself that it could be psychedelically powerful at times and full of joy, and it could be as normal and quiet in any other moment
It's helpful not to have expectations. Would it be disappointing if there were no psychedelic-type of experience?

I'm very pleased to be guiding you Ruslan.

Now, please let me know what you currently believe you are.
What is 'I'? What does the word 'I', or 'me' point to?

Thank you,

Jon

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Ruslan
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby Ruslan » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:28 pm

Hi Ruslan,
I will be more than happy to have you as my guide through this journey and thank you for that.
Yes, I do confirm that I read the disclaimer and the info on the main page of this forum.
Thanks for that.
I'm a bit thrilled, to be honest almost dizzy with the idea of what it might be.
I have a feeling that it already started there in Worthing during and after the meeting.
That's very interesting.
Afterwards I started to notice more frequently the gap spaces in between thoughts and when I get trapped into a mental story (which happens all the time during the day – every day), it sometimes disassemble itself just by a kind of “looking” at it. And then, another story popes in immediately, of course
Yes! This 'looking' and noticing the mental story disassembling is very good.

So here is a question:

Who or what gets trapped? Sure, there is a mental story, including one about 'being trapped'. Where is the one that is trapped?
And this process of making up stories is draining and compulsive, but I kinda, can’t control it.
That is also intereting, isn't it? Look for the one that could 'control' it. Is there such a one?
Once I had a “satory” state for two days, I think it might be like that as well as it might be not or even the opposite, it is just guessing as far as I can see my mental fuzz around this question.
It's good that you don't have a fixed idea of 'how it should be'. How it will be experienced can't be guessed or known, so, not being able to guess is no problem at all.
I’m telling to myself that it could be psychedelically powerful at times and full of joy, and it could be as normal and quiet in any other moment
It's helpful not to have expectations. Would it be disappointing if there were no psychedelic-type of experience?

I'm very pleased to be guiding you Ruslan.

Now, please let me know what you currently believe you are.
What is 'I'? What does the word 'I', or 'me' point to?

Thank you,

Jon

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Ruslan
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby Ruslan » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:32 pm

Jonathan:” Let me know what you currently believe you are”
What is I?
What does the word I or me point to?

Ruslan: Well.

This Friday I had another “hard conversation” with the warehouse manager I’m working in.
Although I say to myself – just look! – Observe!
But an inner conversation starts and my attention gets trapped in it without any effort, just like this, by magic.

It’s like diving into mind, into an identity that is defending its territory or even offending “imaginary” the other - which is bad or threatening or anything else that makes this identity feel “uncomfortable”.

This is how I perceive my identity in the last 3 days, starting with Friday evening when the conflict with the manager went on. (Strange thing, I started to sneeze, something like 5-6 times, while writing these lines and it keeps going).

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JonathanR
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:00 pm

Hi Ruslan,
This Friday I had another “hard conversation” with the warehouse manager I’m working in.
Although I say to myself – just look! – Observe!
But an inner conversation starts and my attention gets trapped in it without any effort, just like this, by magic.

It’s like diving into mind, into an identity that is defending its territory or even offending “imaginary” the other - which is bad or threatening or anything else that makes this identity feel “uncomfortable”.

This is how I perceive my identity in the last 3 days, starting with Friday evening when the conflict with the manager went on. (Strange thing, I started to sneeze, something like 5-6 times, while writing these lines and it keeps going).
There is no doubt that these feelings are experienced. But is there actually one that 'has' the experience?

It seems that there is 'someone' that is 'uncomfortable'. Look. Can this entity be found?




So, there is the thought
– just look! – Observe!
, is that thought 'yours'? Did it come from a 'you'?

It seems that there is a 'someone' that thinks thoughts.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

Place a hand on the table, palm down. Experience the sensation of hand in contact with table. It may feel slightly warm, or there may be a sense of pressure, perhaps? Just notice the raw experience. The sensation.

Right here and now, can a 'self' be found 'experiencing sensation'?

Notice the sensation. Does 'a hand' experience 'pressure', does a 'me' experience 'sensation', or is there simply the feeling?

Thank you,

Jon

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Ruslan
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby Ruslan » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:25 pm

-Just look! Observe!
Jonathan: Is that thought ‘yours’? Did it come from ‘you’?
It seems that there is a 'someone' that thinks thoughts.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

R: Yes, I want to know who is thinking the thought, and why can’t I put away the thinking process as it was happening when I was in the ‘Satori’ state.
I remember that ‘satori’ state so vividly, even now I can sense the taste of it, but I feel like I can’t force it to come and stay.
My point here about the ‘satori’ state is that I could perceive ‘openness of my body/structure to the oceanic floods of consciousness at different levels’. And at level of my head it was like a sphere opened up inside it, and the sphere became larger than my physical head and that sphere was pure attention in which the stream of thought was perceived like a tiny river somewhere not even in the middle, but to the right part of that sphere. You see, you could imagine a circle and a line crossing it somewhere in the right part of it, that was my thinking – just line crossing a sphere, in that state.
Well, you might ask why am I describing it to you, it was just a state that faded away anyway.
I was a university student at that time and it was a very hectic period, just before the exams. So nothing and nobody around me was silent, I had a lot of meetings, and conversations and university lectures to attend; but, nevertheless, it was so quiet. The practical thing about it was that I was perceiving reality without a thought that we usually call compulsive thinking. When someone was asking me something, anything, my attention would go easily that ‘line crossing the sphere’ of thought, and the answer would come up by itself, without any effort. When the communication moment would consume itself, my attention was naturally coming back to the sphere center of stillness. And all of this was so natural, no effort at all, like a mechanics that was perfect, but completely different from ‘normal state’ I am in now.
To sum it up, I will reiterate that I want to know who is thinking the thought, and why can’t I put away the thinking process as it was happening when I was in the ‘Satori’ state.

Jonathan:
Right here and now, can a 'self' be found 'experiencing sensation'?

Notice the sensation. Does 'a hand' experience 'pressure', does a 'me' experience 'sensation', or is there simply the feeling?

Well, the “hand” thing – it is just a feeling.
And the question: “can a ‘self’ be found ’experiencing sensation” doesn’t make any sense,
I can’t understand it when I place my hand palm down on the table and feel it.
Jonathan to be honest with you I have done such experiments, like ‘the hand’ before and I would always get the essence of it, it even makes you quiet instantly.
But I can’t do or feel the same when I am anxious or under pressure or thinking constantly about changing the job. I feel like I am building walls between me and the ‘raw experience’ of life. I can’t get rid of this anxiety feeling that is always there underneath the carpet of daily routine.
The other thing I have started to do is when I close my eyes, lying down in my bed, I would normally have my thought processes intensify, and I have started to ask this simple question “where am I?” and it helps to dissipate the “heavy clouds of thought”, and it is a relief, then I would repeat it again and again when thinking becomes too draining.


Namaste

Ruslan

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JonathanR
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:55 pm

Hi Ruslan,

Thank you so much for your very sincere and interesting post. All the things you mention are very helpful to know.

Your description of the Satori state is beautiful and I understand what you mean by the sphere with the little stream of thought crossing it.
R: Yes, I want to know who is thinking the thought, and why can’t I put away the thinking process as it was happening when I was in the ‘Satori’ state....

But I can’t do or feel the same when I am anxious or under pressure or thinking constantly about changing the job. I feel like I am building walls between me and the ‘raw experience’ of life. I can’t get rid of this anxiety feeling that is always there underneath the carpet of daily routine.
Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, or disappearing? Try to prevent a thought.

Important: Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

Namaste,

Jon

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Ruslan
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby Ruslan » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:37 am

Jonathan: Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, or disappearing? Try to prevent a thought.

R: When I try to prevent a thought it kicks you even harder with more thoughts, it’s like interfering or trying to block a river with some rocks, the flow is overcoming them. What I can do is choose another thought – like chanting a mantra.

Jonathan: Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought 'I'?
R: I normally go into some mental story where my past connects with my present to create a mental future that suit or comfort me.

And sometimes seeing it and saying to myself there is no I that remained in the past and there is no I that would connect that past to a present situation with the only purpose to secure itself in a ‘future’, the construct disassemble itself and I feel relieved.
But the story making happens on daily basis and, yes, I can’t prevent it, I can’t prevent thoughts making up stories again and again. Sometimes I would even dive deep into these stories, I would surrender to them, because it feels like being a Don Quixote fighting against the Mills, no chance to win.

Or sometimes I would dive into these stories out of boredom or to make time pass quicker when doing a boring task at work; in this case it is more like a shield protecting me from …. What exactly – not being awake, escape from freedom?
I tend to say it’s boredom, but there is more there.

Is it going to be always like this?


Om Shanti Shanti Om


Ruslan

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JonathanR
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby JonathanR » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:29 pm

Hi Ruslan,
But the story making happens on daily basis and, yes, I can’t prevent it, I can’t prevent thoughts making up stories again and again. Sometimes I would even dive deep into these stories, I would surrender to them, because it feels like being a Don Quixote fighting against the Mills, no chance to win.
Could it be that thoughts cannot be prevented becasue there is no entity 'there', that could stop them? (Other than one imagined?)

How could an imaginary person prevent anything?

Can an imaginary character catch a ball?

If there were a real 'self', pulling strings and making things happen, surely it would choose only to experience pleasant thoughts?

Is it possible to create only pleasant thoughts?

All the best,

Jon

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Ruslan
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby Ruslan » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:39 pm

Jonathan: If there were a real 'self', pulling strings and making things happen, surely it would choose only to experience pleasant thoughts?
Is it possible to create only pleasant thoughts?

R: These two questions are like a ‘koan’ to me.
I like them. I feel like I need to stay with them a bit longer.
No other comments.

Thank you

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JonathanR
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:52 am

Hi Ruslan,
R: These two questions are like a ‘koan’ to me.
I like them. I feel like I need to stay with them a bit longer.
No other comments.
That's great. Look at them and tell me what you find?


Jon

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Ruslan
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby Ruslan » Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:29 pm

Hi Jonathan,

It still takes me some time.

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JonathanR
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Re: The Fog Out

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:35 pm

That's cool. Take your time and get back to me?

Best

Jon


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