Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

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Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:43 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?

I came to this forum via a Google search on the topic of the self illusion. I've read the PDF of successful liberations and although it resonated with me, it wasn't enough to "pop me out". I'm hoping that a first-hand experience with a guide will give me that last little push to a clear view of reality.
For the past year or so I've been reading about mindfulness and meditation, which led me to the illusion of self. The reason I was interested in the subject was mainly because I am prone to stress-related tension, which manifests as back pain and headaches. The idea of the self illusion didn't grab me at first and I didn't give it too much thought. I guess I didn't understand it. It was only in the last couple of months that I realised its significance. Now I will not be satisfied until I see it for myself.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this:

Reading others' liberation accounts suggests to me that I haven't yet seen through the illusion of self. I understand and accept it's only an illusion but I know that isn't enough. Whether a liberation comes as a sudden explosion or a slow dawning, it seems there is always some kind of "aha" moment, followed by a lightness of being. I have yet to experience that. I "know" there can be no "I" and it is therefore impossible to locate, but it's somehow unsatisfying to know that. I still find myself getting caught up in my story, and "I" feel disappointment when I realise it. Which is ridiculous, because WHO is disappointed, right? This seems to be evidence that I'm still on the wrong side of the gate.

It seems clear that the mind, as a product of evolution, works by serving up thoughts (based on past experiences) depending on what's happening around it. "I" is a useful label to associate these thoughts with our brains and our experience so it is tacked on to almost every thought served up. We then remember these thoughts which have been assigned the "I" category as "me". It all strikes me as totally programmatic: The brain stores and compares variables, calculates outcomes based on data, and loops through patterns of thought and language. The database is continually updated, perhaps being defragmented as we sleep. Speculation, yes, but it seems apt.

I expect that the liberation event is seeing all this in such a way that forgetting it or missing it becomes impossible. After looking at experience from a particular angle, reality will suddenly be visible from any angle, and looking for it will no longer be required.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?

Over the past ~4 years I've had certain uneasy feelings come and go. When I'm busy there's no time for those thoughts and life is as it always was. When things are quiet and I'm alone I feel like I'm missing something – some key piece of information. I have profound thoughts about who "I" am and where that "I" came from. It just seems impossible. How did this consciousness appear in this brain? Why does it feel like "me"? Sometimes it seems reasonable –likely even– that this (life, experience, everything) could be a simulation. Whatever the truth of reality, I want to experience it.

Although I identify with many of the stories in the PDF and in the forum, a common theme that does not resonate is the amount of fear people seem to feel about all this. The only fear I have is that I'll never make it through the gate, or that I already passed through without realising.

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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:31 am

Hi Jamie,

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING THOROUGHLY

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist in exploring the illusion of the separate self, though I can only point the way. You have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.
I will ask various questions and set you some exercises for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. This will be the focus. There are no right or wrong answers and nobody judging you. You can't get this wrong.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
Technical support:
- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- PLEASE LEARN to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below this line:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

- The site has a habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere (word document), then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

If you are happy to agree to the above and have me as your guide, we can start the process. Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Regards Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:50 pm

Hi Kay,

Thank you for helping me. I'll get straight to your questions:
How will Life change?
Life will continue as normal. Reality is what it is. The only change will be in my perspective.
How will you change?
I will see that "I" is just a label. I will become aware of reality. I will see thoughts and emotions separately from my reaction to them. I hope this will lead to feeling more at ease and at peace.
What will be different?
Nothing will be different but everything will be different. Since I already do not exist, nothing can change in reality. However, since I currently think I exist, I am expecting a significant shift to occur when that notion is cracked. What a shame I won't be around to witness it.
What is missing?
There is no fear, but apprehension. This process is apparently irreversible. That thought should be scary I suppose, but I'm more excited than anything. I am a logical and sceptical person so naturally I've had a lot of doubts about whether the self illusion is real or a fantasy. At this point I'd be very surprised (and disappointed) if it turns out to be spiritual BS.

At the moment it seems clear that the self IS an illusion but I have not had that "aha" moment, lightness or laughter that others have described.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
I'd like to find out for sure if the self is an illusion. I'd like to experience the "oneness" people describe. I'd like to wake up and observe reality. If this liberation thing works, I'd like to be in a position to reveal the truth to others.

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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:14 am

Hi Jamie,

Expectations are one of the biggest hindrances to seeing through the illusion of a separate ‘self’. I would like you to notice what arises for you eg., anger, fear, resistance, frustration, joy (whatever) when you read my responses to your answers and let me know.
How will Life change?
Life will continue as normal. Reality is what it is. The only change will be in my perspective.
Yes, life will continue as normal since there isn’t and never has been a ‘person/separate individual’ who has a life or who is living a life….so how then could ‘life’ change?
How will you change?
I will see that "I" is just a label. I will become aware of reality. I will see thoughts and emotions separately from my reaction to them. I hope this will lead to feeling more at ease and at peace.
Hmmm in your answer above you said “reality is what it is” and here you are wanting to “become aware of reality”. What does “reality” mean to you?

There is no separate individual that can “feel more at ease and at peace” and/or gain or attain anything.
What will be different?
Nothing will be different but everything will be different. Since I already do not exist, nothing can change in reality. However, since I currently think I exist, I am expecting a significant shift to occur when that notion is cracked. What a shame I won't be around to witness it.
You have some sort of idea here of what you would like happen when you see through the illusion of the separate individual! There is no ‘you’ to disappear or dissolve into anything different. How can there be….there never was a separate individual in the first place! What happens is you see through the idea/concept/notion of what you ‘think’ you are. There is no ‘you’ to be anything or nothing.

Having the expectation of a significant shift will be a hindrance because unless you experience something significant you will constantly doubt that you have seen through the illusion. Not everyone experiences trumpeting angels, ecstatic states of bliss, joy or whatever, it can just be a simple recognition.
What is missing?
There is no fear, but apprehension. This process is apparently irreversible. That thought should be scary I suppose, but I'm more excited than anything. I am a logical and sceptical person so naturally I've had a lot of doubts about whether the self illusion is real or a fantasy. At this point I'd be very surprised (and disappointed) if it turns out to be spiritual BS.
Apprehension and fear are the same thing. You are not losing a limb or gaining a spare one, you are seeing through the illusion of a separate individual which never existed in the first place. It sounds to me that there is a fear of you disappearing or something drastic or dramatic happening – and there isn’t. It is a realisation only.
At the moment it seems clear that the self IS an illusion but I have not had that "aha" moment, lightness or laughter that others have described.
And you may not. It may just be a simple…aah I get it. So please put aside all expectations of what seeing through the separate individual will look like or feel like.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
I'd like to find out for sure if the self is an illusion. I'd like to experience the "oneness" people describe. I'd like to wake up and observe reality. If this liberation thing works, I'd like to be in a position to reveal the truth to others.
There is only every reality happening! There is no such thing as “oneness”, everything just IS. Seeing through the separate individual doesn’t give you something extra where you and a tree become one! There was never a ‘you’ and a tree to begin with! You say you expect nothing to change…and yet from what I am reading there is a huge expectation of change.

At least now you are aware of your expectations and so am I. Please put those expectations aside for the duration of this investigation.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:57 am

Hmmm in your answer above you said “reality is what it is” and here you are wanting to “become aware of reality”. What does “reality” mean to you?
Reality is "things happening" without a filter. Everything experienced now is immediately swarmed by thoughts about what I think I like, dislike, hope, expect etc.
There is no separate individual that can “feel more at ease and at peace” and/or gain or attain anything.
I accept this but it's hard to imagine being without feeling. When I realise Santa isn't real, I am still here. When I realise I am not real, what is left?
Having the expectation of a significant shift will be a hindrance because unless you experience something significant you will constantly doubt that you have seen through the illusion. Not everyone experiences trumpeting angels, ecstatic states of bliss, joy or whatever, it can just be a simple recognition.
I only meant "statistically significant", or "definite". That isn't clear from my writing – sorry about that! I'm not expecting a eureka moment with music and champagne, but I do hope that seeing through is enough to extinguish my doubt.
And you may not. It may just be a simple…aah I get it. So please put aside all expectations of what seeing through the separate individual will look like or feel like.
"Aah I get it" would be perfect.
You say you expect nothing to change…and yet from what I am reading there is a huge expectation of change.
I didn't think I had big expectations but from the way you've interpreted my answers, it seems my expectations may have been bigger than I realised.
Expectations are one of the biggest hindrances to seeing through the illusion of a separate ‘self’.
I will take on board everything you've said and try to set any expectations aside.
I would like you to notice what arises for you eg., anger, fear, resistance, frustration, joy (whatever) when you read my responses to your answers and let me know.
Initially I felt resistance to your feedback. I didn't feel like I'd described huge/drastic/dramatic expectations, but that's what you saw. I thought I'd given you the wrong idea, and felt frustration that I wasn't able to explain my thoughts clearly. I feel joy and relief that you are taking the time to help me through this.

Thank you!

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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:14 pm

Hi Jamie,
Reality is "things happening" without a filter. Everything experienced now is immediately swarmed by thoughts about what I think I like, dislike, hope, expect etc.
I want you to have a look for what has always been readily available. Close your eyes for 10 minutes and just begin to notice what is there. Don’t get hooked up in thoughts, just notice everything.
Let me know what you notice.
There is no separate individual that can “feel more at ease and at peace” and/or gain or attain anything.
I accept this but it's hard to imagine being without feeling. When I realise Santa isn't real, I am still here. When I realise I am not real, what is left?
LOL, I never said that there would be no feelings, only that you have never felt anything as a ‘person’. How could you have if there has never been a ‘person’ in the first place?!

Who says you are not real? You are real, but what you think you are is not real. As I said earlier, it’s not that you aren’t real, but there is no ‘person’ to be anything or nothing. It's not that you are dissolving or disappearing, there was no you as a ‘person’ in the first place.

When you realise that you have never been a ‘person’…what is left…exactly what is here now!
but I do hope that seeing through is enough to extinguish my doubt.
Thoughts will still come and go. Do you have any control over what thoughts you have? So doubt will inevitably arise but by ‘looking’ to see what it is that could be doubting, you see through the doubt.
Initially I felt resistance to your feedback. I didn't feel like I'd described huge/drastic/dramatic expectations, but that's what you saw. I thought I'd given you the wrong idea, and felt frustration that I wasn't able to explain my thoughts clearly. I feel joy and relief that you are taking the time to help me through this.
Haha…there will be other times when what I write or ask you to do will bring up resistance and frustrations…but that’s okay. Just be aware of it. I’m not going anywhere, so I am here for the duration (haha…I don’t know if that is good news for you or not ;) [grinning])


Okay so we have looked at expectations and thank you for putting your expectations to the side. Now to look at thoughts.

Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thoughts actually are - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying, and rather just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from?
Where are they going?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Please look carefully when doing this exercise and answer all questions in blue individually using the quote function.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:46 pm

Hi Kay! Thanks for sticking by me.
Let me know what you notice.
I switch off my screen and set a timer. Close my eyes. Relax.

Lots of sounds happen: Hum of computer fans, boiler starts up in another room, distant traffic, occasional cars passing by this house, sudden noises in the room which seem to be this creaky old building flexing/settling, friction sounds as I shift in my seat.

Feelings of pressure where the body is in contact with itself (hands) and the chair. Where the feet rest on the floor. Light pressure where elbows touch armrests.

Warmth in the body and cold where my ankles are exposed.

Each noticing is followed by a series of word thoughts about how I might describe it later. Many of these partial sentences are repeated two or three times.

I listen again. Computer hum. Faint high pitched electrical sound.

Thought: "That must be ten minutes now". 10 seconds... Alarm.
When you realise that you have never been a ‘person’…what is left…exactly what is here now!
That's reassuring. I "get" it – that nothing will change, but from my current perspective I can't comprehend how things will be when the self is revealed as illusory. Yes, of course things will be as they already are, but if there are liberated people and non-liberated people, there must be something that distinguishes them. Otherwise there'd be nothing to talk about and this forum couldn't exist.
Haha…there will be other times when what I write or ask you to do will bring up resistance and frustrations…but that’s okay. Just be aware of it. I’m not going anywhere, so I am here for the duration (haha…I don’t know if that is good news for you or not ;) [grinning])
It is good news, as far as I can see! I'm grateful there are people like you willing to help the rest of us to see what's going on. I am prepared for this to be challenging. If it were obvious/easy we'd all have done it already.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No.
Where are they coming from?
I can't see where they come from.
Where are they going?
I can't see where they go.
Can you predict your next thought?
No.
Can you push away any thought?
I can drown out certain thoughts. If there is a repetitive musical thought, for example, I can kind of skip it by thinking "STOP STOP STOP" and it will be replaced by another thought. The annoying thought can return quickly.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
I can not select from a particular range. There is no overview of possible thoughts to choose from. Only the current thought is present.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
I can interrupt a chain/story of thoughts and skip to another thought before all of my thoughts related to the original story have surfaced, but an individual thought can't be stopped because I can't see it until it's surfaced. If there's a disturbing story unfolding I can switch to thinking about something else. Maybe this question depends on your/my definition of a single thought though?
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No. There is no "preview" available. By the time a thought surfaces it's too late not to "have" it.
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?
No. A thought is unknown until it happens.
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
Individual thoughts can not be controlled.

I'm a bit confused by the 30-minute thought task. Your instruction to "just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all" seems to contradict the later question "can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?".

I don't know whether I'm supposed to try to intefere or not.

When I let thoughts run, they just arise moment by moment. I don't control them and I can't tell where they come from or go to. Sometimes there's a longer chain of thoughts or part of a song which plays out, sometimes single words, sometimes an image. It seems chaotic but I recognise that a lot of the thoughts relate to things I've experienced recently.

When I try to test your later questions about stopping/starting/pushing away etc, I feel like I can rush through thoughts, like a casting director shouting "Next! Next! Next!" but I can't decide what to think about.

Am I doing this right?

Thank you <3

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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:27 am

Hey Jamie,
I switch off my screen and set a timer. Close my eyes. Relax.
Great! So what was noticed – sound, sensation and thought and they are actual experience (AE) and AE is what reality is. Anything beyond just the simple experience of sound, sensation, thought, taste, smell and colour (images) is story/fiction.

So when I ask you to ‘look’ this is what is meant. Look for what is actually here (sound, sensation, thought, taste, smell and colour (images)) and not the thought story ABOUT what is happening.
but if there are liberated people and non-liberated people, there must be something that distinguishes them. Otherwise there'd be nothing to talk about and this forum couldn't exist.
There has never been a person or people who are liberated or non-liberated – that is impossible. There is no ‘you’ as a person, so how can there be other people who are persons liberated or not?

But to answer your question simply, the only difference will be is that there is freedom knowing there is no ‘person’ living life, and that life just IS, whereas they will still be ‘weighed’ down with the idea that they are a person who is controlling, doing, thinking, choosing and deciding how to live their lives.
If it were obvious/easy we'd all have done it already.
It is obvious but thought overlays the obvious with stories.
Can you push away any thought?
I can drown out certain thoughts. If there is a repetitive musical thought, for example, I can kind of skip it by thinking "STOP STOP STOP" and it will be replaced by another thought. The annoying thought can return quickly.
I would like for you to really have a careful look at this.

Was there an “I” noticing a stream of thoughts and then another “I” that decided at a particular point to drown out certain thoughts? Or did the thought STOP STOP STOP just also arise in the stream of thoughts being noticed?

I want you to look (search everywhere within the body, in the room…everywhere) and tell me what it is exactly that could skip a thought and make the thought STOP STOP STOP appear?
When you find what can do that, then I would like for you to describe it to me in precise detail please.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
I can not select from a particular range. There is no overview of possible thoughts to choose from. Only the current thought is present.

Yes. So how do you choose to make the thought STOP STOP STOP appear?

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
I can interrupt a chain/story of thoughts and skip to another thought before all of my thoughts related to the original story have surfaced, but an individual thought can't be stopped because I can't see it until it's surfaced. If there's a disturbing story unfolding I can switch to thinking about something else. Maybe this question depends on your/my definition of a single thought though?
So please tell me where the someone/something is located that can do the above?
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No. There is no "preview" available. By the time a thought surfaces it's too late not to "have" it.
Yes, exactly.
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?
No. A thought is unknown until it happens.
Yep
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
Individual thoughts can not be controlled.
I want you to look carefully and tell me where one thought ends and another begins. Please don’t think the answer…but sit and have a look at thoughts. Let me know what you find.
I'm a bit confused by the 30-minute thought task. Your instruction to "just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all" seems to contradict the later question "can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?".

I don't know whether I'm supposed to try to intefere or not.
What exactly is it that can interfere with a stream of thoughts?

There is no one/nothing that can be “confused”.

The label “confused” is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE confused
The sensation labelled “confused” is the AE of sensation and not the AE of confused
So the AE of “confused” = thought + sensation but the story ABOUT being “confused” is fiction.
When I let thoughts run, they just arise moment by moment. I don't control them and I can't tell where they come from or go to. Sometimes there's a longer chain of thoughts or part of a song which plays out, sometimes single words, sometimes an image. It seems chaotic but I recognise that a lot of the thoughts relate to things I've experienced recently.
Where exactly is this “I” that controls thoughts by “letting them run” (or not “run” – doesn’t that represent control?) or “recognises that a lot of thoughts relate to things experienced recently”?

What exactly is it that is experiencing things? Find that someone/something that is experiencing things?
When I try to test your later questions about stopping/starting/pushing away etc, I feel like I can rush through thoughts, like a casting director shouting "Next! Next! Next!" but I can't decide what to think about.
Where is the “I” that can rush through thoughts? Locate that “I” and describe it to me.
Am I doing this right?
There is no doing it right or wrong. I will just keep giving questions that point so that you look and you will see for yourself. It’s just important to take the time to carefully look at the questions to see what they are pointing to.

While you are going back to look at thoughts to answer my questions, it seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There is a lot here to look at. So take your time and look carefully and answer all questions in blue individually.

You're doing great Jamie.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:10 pm

Was there an “I” noticing a stream of thoughts and then another “I” that decided at a particular point to drown out certain thoughts? Or did the thought STOP STOP STOP just also arise in the stream of thoughts being noticed?
No. The interrupting thought is the same as any other thought.
I want you to look (search everywhere within the body, in the room…everywhere) and tell me what it is exactly that could skip a thought and make the thought STOP STOP STOP appear?
When you find what can do that, then I would like for you to describe it to me in precise detail please.
The words just arise, but they have no position. They are clear, but they make no sound. They have no origin and no destination; like any thought.

There is near-constant narration happening. Observations and questions about your questions. But who is talking? Who is listening? Nobody. So who is thinking? The answer is "nobody" but it still seems paradoxical. How can it "seem" paradoxical? Who is noticing a paradox? It's impossible, but the feeling remains.
So how do you choose to make the thought STOP STOP STOP appear?
I don't. It is just another thought in the stream.
So please tell me where the someone/something is located that can do the above?
There is nothing that can do it. It isn't anywhere.
I want you to look carefully and tell me where one thought ends and another begins. Please don’t think the answer…but sit and have a look at thoughts. Let me know what you find.
There are words, sentences, labels, but thought is not divided into pieces in any real way.
What exactly is it that can interfere with a stream of thoughts?
Only events in reality can interfere with a stream of thoughts. If the house started falling down, thoughts of annoying music would disappear pretty fast.
Where exactly is this “I” that controls thoughts by “letting them run” (or not “run” – doesn’t that represent control?) or “recognises that a lot of thoughts relate to things experienced recently”?
It feels like the I is inside my head. The feeling in this awareness that "I" "do" is so powerful. I is impossible to identify though. There is no identifier. The illusion is circular. Looking behind the illusion will reveal the truth, but the truth is the illusion doesn't exist. So it's really impossible to look through the illusion because a) there is no illusion and b) there is nobody to look through it. WTF? That's the gate, right? The gate is "seen" from one side but once it's passed it's obvious that there never was a gate. It was only a mirage, and the only people that thought they could see it also didn't exist!

This is the deepest thing ever and also has no depth at all.
What exactly is it that is experiencing things? Find that someone/something that is experiencing things?
Nothing. It cannot be found.
Where is the “I” that can rush through thoughts? Locate that “I” and describe it to me.
There is no "I" that can rush through thoughts. There is no "I" that can do anything. Certain thoughts have an "I" tag. Click "All Mail" in Gmail and notice how many messages are tagged "Inbox". Maybe "I" is the inbox of life.
it seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Thoughts just arise. The order can not be correct or incorrect because there is no choice. There is no possibility to experience them in a different order. The order just is. Once thoughts are in awareness, the moment passes and can not be recreated. An alternative thought may arise afterwards but it is just next in the sequence.

Thoughts are reactions to what happens in reality. When reality is quiet, thoughts just unfold. They can not be influenced by anything except new happenings in reality (what you call "actual experience"). What else could influence them? There is nothing else.

Thank you <3

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forgetmenot
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:04 pm

Hi Jamie,

I have broken my response to you in half....the posts were becoming too long which can become rather unwieldy and overwhelming.
There is near-constant narration happening.
Yes, everything is a thought….everything is being continuously labelled by thoughts. All thought is empty of content unless it is pointing to AE…..brrbrr = thought "cold".
Observations and questions about your questions. But who is talking? Who is listening? Nobody. So who is thinking? The answer is "nobody" but it still seems paradoxical. How can it "seem" paradoxical? Who is noticing a paradox? It's impossible, but the feeling remains.
There is no one/nothing that is noticing a paradox…what is ‘known’ is the AE of thoughts, not what the thoughts are about (content)…but the actual experience of thoughts themselves.

I’m not sure what feeling you are referring to when you say “but the feeling remains”, but if you are referring to the feeling of being the ‘somebody’ who is talking, thinking etc, that feeling isn’t going to go away. Why would it? The idea/concept/belief in the ‘somebody’ is what is seen through and perception changes that is all.
What exactly is it that can interfere with a stream of thoughts?
Only events in reality can interfere with a stream of thoughts. If the house started falling down, thoughts of annoying music would disappear pretty fast.
How is it known that a house falling down would interfere with a stream of thoughts?
Can “events in reality” really interfere with a stream of thoughts, or is that just another thought that says that?


Yes, it seems that an event may be a cause that affects something else…but that would mean that there is two or more objects and there is never two or more…there isn’t even one.

1. Something that is the cause, (house falling down) and
2. something that is affected (a stream of thoughts)

How are thoughts aware of a house falling down for the thoughts to change? That would mean that thoughts were an entity within themselves!

Can you find what it is that is having the thoughts that can be affected by a house falling down?
It feels like the I is inside my head.
How is it known that you have a head?

If you drop all thoughts, images and preconceived ideas and press the tip of your thumb on the top of your head…..what is actually there?

The label “head” is AE of thought and is not the AE of a head.
The image labelled “head” is the AE of image (colour) and not the AE of a head.
The sensation labelled “I inside my head” is AE of sensation and not the AE of someone/something in a head.

So the AE of head thought + image + sensation which thought glues together and labels “head”.

Can you see this?

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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jamie-e
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:22 pm

I’m not sure what feeling you are referring to when you say “but the feeling remains”
The feeling that I am somehow inside this body.
How is it known that a house falling down would interfere with a stream of thoughts?
Can “events in reality” really interfere with a stream of thoughts, or is that just another thought that says that?
Humans have evolved to avoid threats. If our ancestors sat around the fire pondering where the sun goes at night and were suddenly attacked by a wolf pack, wouldn't their brains have reacted to the situation and started generating thoughts about running, fighting, danger, protection, etc? Am I missing the point here? I understand that my information on this does not come from direct experience, but imagining scenarios and planning for them is why humans have been so successful, isn't it?

The interference doesn't need to be life-threatening. A more mundane example is "if the phone rings, I will pick it up". I won't pick up the phone before it rings. Doesn't the event prompt the action? Doesn't the action require thought?
…but that would mean that there is two or more objects and there is never two or more…there isn’t even one.
I don't understand this. There isn't even one what?
Can you find what it is that is having the thoughts that can be affected by a house falling down?
No. I don't know how the thoughts arise or where they are.
How is it known that you have a head?
I can see it in reflections, feel it with my hands. Without a reflection, I can still see a small and blurry part of it (nose, eye socket, etc). I suppose if my brain were somehow reset, I could not tell you that what I can see is part of a head. It's just a blurry thing.
If you drop all thoughts, images and preconceived ideas and press the tip of your thumb on the top of your head…..what is actually there?
A feeling of pressure.
So the AE of head thought + image + sensation which thought glues together and labels “head”.

Can you see this?
I see that the experience of "head" is constructed from a collection of perceivable cues.

Thanks :)

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forgetmenot
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:33 pm

Hello Jamie,

Your answers are coming from thinking and preconceived ideas and you are not LOOKING with actual experience to see what is really here.

Thinking the answers are not going to get you or me anywhere, other than to continue to spin the wheels and I’m not interesting in spinning wheels. Please don’t answer questions from intellect. I want you to answer from actual experience (AE).

What LOOKING is:

Looking isn’t difficult. It doesn’t require any special skills. ‘Looking” is just plain looking to what is here right now. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. It’s noticing sound, taste, smell, sensation and colours (images) to see what is and has always been available, as well as noticing thought/s - not thinking, but noticing or being ‘aware’ of thought/s. Anything else is pure thought story/fiction.


I’m not sure what feeling you are referring to when you say “but the feeling remains”
The feeling that I am somehow inside this body.
And as I answered in the last post….seeing through the false belief in being a separate individual won’t change that. You are not going to leave your body or disappear. That sense will still remain but you will know what the reality is.

I am wondering if there is some fear about seeing through the illusion because of the fact that you have the incorrect idea that something will happen to you if and when you see through this illusion.
How is it known that a house falling down would interfere with a stream of thoughts?
Can “events in reality” really interfere with a stream of thoughts, or is that just another thought that says that?
Humans have evolved to avoid threats. If our ancestors sat around the fire pondering where the sun goes at night and were suddenly attacked by a wolf pack, wouldn't their brains have reacted to the situation and started generating thoughts about running, fighting, danger, protection, etc? Am I missing the point here? I understand that my information on this does not come from direct experience, but imagining scenarios and planning for them is why humans have been so successful, isn't it?

The interference doesn't need to be life-threatening. A more mundane example is "if the phone rings, I will pick it up". I won't pick up the phone before it rings. Doesn't the event prompt the action? Doesn't the action require thought?
You did absolutely no LOOKING here…this is all thought story. You did not answer all the questions in blue, all you did was try to prove to me that you are a person who has a brain and who thinks.

In actual experience find all these humans, where are they?
Without thought labeling can you find a human in the actual experience of thought? Can you find a human in the label "human"?
Can you find a human in the AE of sound that is labelled "human"
Can you find a human in the AE of colours (image) that is labelled a "body of a human"
Can you find a human in the AE of a taste or smell?
Can you find a human in the AE of a sensation? When there is a sensation labelled "headache" can you find a human in that sensation?


Where exactly is this “I” that hears the phone ring and then picks it up? Describe this “I” to me in minute detail.

Once again….thought creating action is cause and effect. Cause and effect is the assumption that there is time and that time happens in a linear motion – there is no such thing as time.

The label “time” is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE of time. The concept of what the label “time” is pointing to is fiction.
…but that would mean that there is two or more objects and there is never two or more…there isn’t even one.
I don't understand this. There isn't even one what?
Exactly….one what? Have a look. Can you find anything in actual experience that can be said to be an entity of any description?
Can you find what it is that is having the thoughts that can be affected by a house falling down?
No. I don't know how the thoughts arise or where they are.
I’m not asking you if you know….I am asking you to LOOK!
Can you find any separate entity that is having the thoughts that can be affected by a house falling down?
How is it known that you have a head?
I can see it in reflections, feel it with my hands. Without a reflection, I can still see a small and blurry part of it (nose, eye socket, etc). I suppose if my brain were somehow reset, I could not tell you that what I can see is part of a head. It's just a blurry thing.
How do you know that the reflection you see is you? Because a thought said so?
How is it known that what you feel with what are labelled “hands” are feeling what is labelled a “head”? Because a thought said so?

Where is this “I” that is seeing parts of the face and how is it known that it is a “face”..because a thought said so?

If you drop all thoughts, images and preconceived ideas and press the tip of your thumb on the top of your head…..what is actually there?
A feeling of pressure.
“A feeling of pressure” is a thought and I asked you to drop all thoughts.
So what is actually there when you put the tip of your thumb and press it down on the top of your head? Is there a “head” or a “thumb” there or is there only the actual experience (AE) of sensation?
So the AE of head thought + image + sensation which thought glues together and labels “head”.
Can you see this?
I see that the experience of "head" is constructed from a collection of perceivable cues.
Where is this entity/individual located that is “constructing the experience of “head” from a collection of perceivable cues”? Describe the location to me in precise details.


It seems to me that you didn’t really read what I wrote in the last post because of the answers that you have given here, and you didn’t LOOK at all, you just answered from thought. Any answer doesn’t do….answers must come from LOOKING with actual experience (AE).

Please read this post in full and answer ALL questions in blue and use the function key to highlight each question. Only answer from actual experience and not from thought.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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jamie-e
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:14 pm

I’m not interesting in spinning wheels
I'm not either – Apologies if I took this off track. I'll keep my answers short and direct.
You did absolutely no LOOKING here…this is all thought story. You did not answer all the questions in blue, all you did was try to prove to me that you are a person who has a brain and who thinks.
Yep. Sorry about that.
In actual experience find all these humans, where are they?
They are not in actual experience.
Without thought labeling can you find a human in the actual experience of thought? Can you find a human in the label "human"?
No.
No.
Can you find a human in the AE of sound that is labelled "human"
No.
Can you find a human in the AE of colours (image) that is labelled a "body of a human"
No.
Can you find a human in the AE of a taste or smell?
No.
Can you find a human in the AE of a sensation? When there is a sensation labelled "headache" can you find a human in that sensation?
No.
Where exactly is this “I” that hears the phone ring and then picks it up? Describe this “I” to me in minute detail.
I can't find it. I can't describe it.
Can you find any separate entity that is having the thoughts that can be affected by a house falling down?
No.
How do you know that the reflection you see is you? Because a thought said so?
Without thought, I can not know that image is me.
How is it known that what you feel with what are labelled “hands” are feeling what is labelled a “head”? Because a thought said so?
There is no concept of "hands" or "head" without thought.
Where is this “I” that is seeing parts of the face and how is it known that it is a “face”..because a thought said so?
I can't find an "I" that is seeing anything. The image is labelled "face" by a thought. Without thought there is no "face".
So what is actually there when you put the tip of your thumb and press it down on the top of your head? Is there a “head” or a “thumb” there or is there only the actual experience (AE) of sensation?
There is only the actual experience of sensation.
Where is this entity/individual located that is “constructing the experience of “head” from a collection of perceivable cues”? Describe the location to me in precise details.
I can't find any entity constructing anything.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:41 am

Hi Jamie,

Thank you for LOOKING. I really appreciate it and you will too as things become clearer because you are LOOKING to see what is actually there, and not looking to thoughts for clarity.

Seeing the difference between the AE of thought and the content of thought is important and until it is seen clearly there will be no clarity.

So let’s finish off the rest of the post I broke in half.
The feeling in this awareness that "I" "do" is so powerful.
A sensation (feeling) is not aware of anything, it is simply the experience of a sensation.
Is the thought that “I” “do” powerful in itself, or is it just another thought that says it is powerful?
So it's really impossible to look through the illusion because a) there is no illusion and b) there is nobody to look through it. WTF? That's the gate, right? The gate is "seen" from one side but once it's passed it's obvious that there never was a gate. It was only a mirage, and the only people that thought they could see it also didn't exist!
There is no gate to go through because there was never anyone to go through it!
There are no “people” just like there is no “person”.
There are images that are labelled “people” but that is AE of image (colours) and not the AE of “people”.

In AE can you find "people"? What is the AE of "people"?

Trying to make sense of thought with thought is what spins the tail on the donkey! That is why looking is important.
There is no "I" that can rush through thoughts. There is no "I" that can do anything. Certain thoughts have an "I" tag. Click "All Mail" in Gmail and notice how many messages are tagged "Inbox". Maybe "I" is the inbox of life.
The label “I” is just another thought among a stream of endless thoughts.

The label “I” is the AE of thought and not the AE of an “I” (person)
The image labelled “I” is the AE of image (colour) and not the AE of an “I” (person)
The sensations labelled “I” are AE of sensations and not the AE of an “I” (person)

So the thoughts ABOUT “I” (the story that makes up an “I” called Jamie) are fiction as the only thing that is, is the actual experience of thought + image + sensation.

Can you see this?
Thoughts just arise. The order can not be correct or incorrect because there is no choice. There is no possibility to experience them in a different order. The order just is. Once thoughts are in awareness, the moment passes and can not be recreated. An alternative thought may arise afterwards but it is just next in the sequence.
Yes. :)
Thoughts are reactions to what happens in reality. When reality is quiet, thoughts just unfold. They can not be influenced by anything except new happenings in reality (what you call "actual experience"). What else could influence them? There is nothing else.
What you are saying is that a smell, taste, sound, sensation, image and thoughts create thoughts ABOUT themselves. and this then creates a reaction to a 'person'?

Is a thought aware of a smell, taste, sound, sensation, image and other thoughts?
Are smells, taste, sound, sensation, image and thoughts aware of thoughts?


All there is is the raw experience of smell, taste, sound, sensation, image and thoughts anything else is a story, including the labelling smell, taste, sound, sensation, image and thoughts!

If thoughts are reactions to what happens in reality then that means cause and effect exists and that is impossible. Cause and effect means there is two things….a something that caused something to something else which is duality, ergo the belief in separation. Cause and effect is the belief in time and that things happen in a linear motion. There is no “time”.

Can you find “time” anywhere in actual experience? What is the AE of “time”?

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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jamie-e
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:10 pm

Kay! I have seen it! I woke up in the night and as the mind "came online" I SAW past the illusion. There was a feeling of "flatness" and calm detachment. Everything I've read and intellectually understood about this has been confirmed, unmistakably. It became clear in a moment. There is no doubt. "I" am not "my" thoughts.

I can no longer look for "I" – there's nowhere to look. There's nobody to look. The idea is nonsensical.

There's a lot more to discover. Every thought that arises is now "seen" in a different light. It's laughable to try to put anything into words. Every sentence is a minefield of "I", "me", "my" :) In language "I" am always "doing". It's no wonder the illusion persists.

I don't know what's next. I will gladly answer your previous questions and anything else you have for me.

I just want to say THANK YOU!

Heads up: The next couple of days will be very busy for me so I might be slow to reply. I promise I won't leave you hanging.

Sincere thanks and love,

Jamie <3


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