Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the idea

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brenden
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Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the idea

Postby brenden » Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:38 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
Confusion...burst my own spiritually narcissistic bubble and need a tweak...the thought 'what next' is cyclic especially with respect to practical day to day events...work etc. There is a seeing of what all is pointed at...intellectually and directly experienced...and yet... something is not right per se. Would appreciate the guidance beloved. Thanks in advance. xo

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?: Honesty. <3

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
Initially started the search re the bigger picture about 8 years ago. I questioned the catholic roots and ran around the rabbit hole of Christianity for sometime. Something within the non-dual pointing, Advaita, started to run in connection with the mystical teachings that Jesus taught, the core essence of who we are, that which is very much misinterpreted by the religious mind.

I have dabbled in Mindfulness meditation and it served its purpose, yet those practitioners i dealt with, even the buddhist ones, perpetuated the idea of 'me' meditating. That was seen through and i seemingly found Mooji and other 'past' sages, Adyashanti, the writings of WuHsin and it all started to sink in...for whom was the question that came next.

I directly inquired into the nature of thought to see the I who was inquiring...thinking... was thought itself.
Yet a sense that one horse was traded for another on the same merry go round, was felt. Like there was just another label, now identifying as pure awareness. All this seen in awareness and yet seemingly I like to over think...there it goes...a paralysis of analysis.

Before the thinking mind, there is a seeing and no seer. Its like I 'get it', but the one thinking he knows something, was seen to be just a notion of this imaginary self.

Then the cyclic thoughts of career, the idea of studying psychology, a desire to change jobs due to circumstances etc comes into the picture and it really screws 'me' up. Fighting with myself lol. SOS.I really want to nail this home. I am the happiest i have ever been, though spells of 'me' and almost the same depression i went though before revisits. Want to press on. :)

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:59 pm

Hi Brenden,

PLEASE READ THIS THOROUGHLY.

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist in exploring the illusion of the separate self, though I can only point the way. You have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.
I will ask various questions and set you some exercises for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. This will be the focus. There are no right or wrong answers and nobody judging you. You can't get this wrong.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
Technical support:
- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- PLEASE LEARN to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
- The site has a habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere (word document), then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

If you are happy to agree to the above and have me as your guide, we can start the process. Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Regards Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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brenden
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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby brenden » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:31 am

Thank you Kay, your time is appreciated.
I have understood the requirements and totally onboard. Let's jump into the deep end.
How will life change?
Ultimately Life IS. There is no expectation here for IT to change, rather, a longing for that fog-like sense of me living it, to lift. Freedom revealed, as opposed to what I do see now as a goal for identity. I have seen though this seeming self, and yet it seems to get hung up on the desire for worldly change ie. Career etc.
How will you change?
A total acceptance of all things as they are, like it could be any different. LOL. From the perspective of ME, a complete heart felt surrender to what-is, getting out of my own way.
How will it be different?
I will know then. Yet the thought of freedom, unconditional love and compassion for all things appears. I am aware of those thoughts, the idea of a 'future' measurement of joy in liberation. The thought 'I am standing on the horizon I have always been chasing' comes into mind. Feeling of fighting myself here, there is a noticing of the 'Thou Shalt not want' thought..wanting to be free to live without the guilt of 'that's ego wanting those things'...
Whats missing?
If I knew that, I wouldn't be needing a guide lol. No disrespect beloved. Love in what I do for work. Grateful for what I have, but it doesn't grab my heart. The thought 'the belly of the mind is never full' is seen right now. The key to this paralysis of analysis that is and has always been an anchor. Yes all thoughts. Cyclic seemingly. University is about to start and I have a place which I am sensing some reluctance...double minded aargh.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
A complete revelation of that I AM...freedom to live this life to the fullest, to be that better husband and father, to end the 'me thoughts' that chew up time and that cage which has only resulted in depression, anger and frustration.

I trust that's enough to get this ball rolling.

Kind regards,

Brenden

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby brenden » Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:26 pm

Hi again Kay...
A contemplative thought since I last posted.
This 'story' I have brought to your attention is an unnatural pain caused by the illusion of a “me” and the illusion that this “me” has VOLITION. This is the illusion of “me” as an individual, objective, the actor and doer. However, this “me” is only a concept, a name, a thought. I see that. A thought can’t think or act, so how could it have volition?
From here...
The term “self-improvement” says it all. Any system, religious or philosophical that assumes that we are improving, motivating, freeing or saving our individual self, instead of simply seeing it as an illusion, is bound to make things worse instead of better....in my questioning as to what this me should do, I build my cage.
Is it fair to say then, I AM this freedom and wholeness now, what direction I cyclically feel drawn toward is not 'my' doing and to question if it's right or wrong to accept this apparent pull, IS the root of my own seeming struggle.
I cannot be or do anything I am or find myself doing. It is Love that opens the door for this seeming person to change like a prop in the play. Grace is the word that comes to mind, though recognised as conceptual notion of interpretation. It is ALL good. Accept what comes, if that is a redirection 'in the world' then why fight it? There is no-thing to fear...in the language that I am familiar with and that which resonates, to live is Christ...love.
Life lives as Me. I, this person, is and only is, the very anchor I wanted to lose...THAT is the death to know life.
Feeling very close. Much love.
Brenden.

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:27 pm

Hi Brenden,

I love the enthusiasm with the “jumping into the deep end”! :) So…did you bring your parachute? ;) (smiling)

When reading my responses to you answers, be aware of what comes up for you. Note if there is any fear or resistance or anger or whatever and just let me know.
How will life change?
Ultimately Life IS. There is no expectation here for IT to change, rather, a longing for that fog-like sense of me living it, to lift. Freedom revealed, as opposed to what I do see now as a goal for identity. I have seen though this seeming self, and yet it seems to get hung up on the desire for worldly change ie. Career etc.
I’m glad to hear that there are no expectations of life to change. There is nothing but freedom. There is no separate individual that is longing for anything, including freedom, or that has any goals or desires of any sort. Everything just IS.
How will you change?
A total acceptance of all things as they are, like it could be any different. LOL. From the perspective of ME, a complete heart felt surrender to what-is, getting out of my own way.
There is already a total acceptance of all things as they are, it is only thought that says there isn’t. There is no separate individual who can surrender to anyone or anything or who can or cannot accept!
How will it be different?
I will know then. Yet the thought of freedom, unconditional love and compassion for all things appears. I am aware of those thoughts, the idea of a 'future' measurement of joy in liberation. The thought 'I am standing on the horizon I have always been chasing' comes into mind. Feeling of fighting myself here, there is a noticing of the 'Thou Shalt not want' thought..wanting to be free to live without the guilt of 'that's ego wanting those things'...
There is absolutely nothing that is not known…that is impossible. There is no separate individual who has or is unconditional love and compassion for anyone or anything or who can achieve a measurement of joy in liberation. There is no such thing as an ego or guilt for that matter.
What’s missing?
If I knew that, I wouldn't be needing a guide lol. No disrespect beloved. Love in what I do for work. Grateful for what I have, but it doesn't grab my heart. The thought 'the belly of the mind is never full' is seen right now. The key to this paralysis of analysis that is and has always been an anchor. Yes all thoughts. Cyclic seemingly. University is about to start and I have a place which I am sensing some reluctance...double minded aargh.
There is no one/nothing that can love or not love what they do for work, and there is no separate individual who is ‘doing’ anything….including work! And there is no one/nothing that is looking to be fulfilled.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
A complete revelation of that I AM...freedom to live this life to the fullest, to be that better husband and father, to end the 'me thoughts' that chew up time and that cage which has only resulted in depression, anger and frustration.
Yep, I hate to break it to you, but there is no separate individual living a life, being a husband or father and who can be depressed, angry or frustrated.
Is it fair to say then, I AM this freedom and wholeness now, what direction I cyclically feel drawn toward is not 'my' doing and to question if it's right or wrong to accept this apparent pull, IS the root of my own seeming struggle.
Yes, there can only be but freedom and wholeness. There is no ‘person/separate individual’ doing anything, it is all a thought story and is therefore all fiction.

Much love
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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brenden
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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby brenden » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:47 pm

i hate to break it to you...
A paradox then clearly, who then are you?
...all is a thought story and is therefore all fiction.
So too are your responses then. You did say guide, all one has received here is opinion too...from seemingly no-one.
All seems very pointless, dry.
Where from here?
Many more questions yet they draw on philosophy and perpetuates the merry go round.

Thanks,
Brenden

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:40 pm

Hi Brenden,

There is a process here and the process is about helping you to see through the concept of a separate individual....that is what guiding is about. Seeing through the separate individual is about seeing through beliefs that hold that concept in place.

This forum is not about answering philosophical questions to perpetuate the merry-go-round or about warm fuzzy feelings. It is about me asking you pointed questions which make you look with direct experience for the real answer and not answers that have philosophical ideology attached to them that feel good which only perpetuates the belief in there being a 'person' who is living a life and who has choices, control and is doing things and making decisions - that is what 'suffering' is all about!

How do you know that all I have given you is my opinion? Do you think that we guides guide here based on our own opinions and philosophies or we guide here because we have seen through the concept of the separate individual and with that our questions have been answered?

In the introduction under "a few ground rules" number 4 said: "Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation". So are you willing to do that or not?

So please answer with honesty so that don't waste each others time - would you like to continue or not?

If you would like to continue then can you tell me what came up for you when reading my responses. Hopelessness, fear, resistance...exactly what came up for you...as it sounds to me like you had a reaction of some sort.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby brenden » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:13 pm

can you tell me what came up for you when reading my responses?
Honestly, a thought that this is becoming a very familiar conversation with a nondualist...
Fear. No.
Hopelessness. No.
Resistance. Yes. Doubt. Yes. The thoughh, 'here we go again', 'I've played this game far too long', 'Kay's perception of my reaction is no different to the perceptions I am here honestly wanting to see through'...'semantics'
This is the feeling...dry.
The thought, 'do you want to continue she asks, when I have covered this ground, my time is not wasted, who's time is wasted, she just said I am wasting hers'...feeling once again is dryness, heady, intellectual, robotic, frustration.
I apologise if 'my challenging' upsets the process. Grateful but thus far, nothing I haven't heard before.
That's honesty.

Regards,
Brenden

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:36 pm

Hi Brenden,

I am sure there will be many things that are said that you haven't already heard. It's not about hearing or learning something new or getting a clearer perspective on what you think is already known...it's about 'unlearning'! It's about 'unlearning' beliefs and concepts.

You said yourself...Life just IS...and that you had no expectation of change...and yet, you want something to be different. You want to learn something different, hear something you haven't heard before that will 'enlighten' you, fulfill you. This may be 'Kay's' perspective...but is it? If there is no separate individual then is there others?

I am not here to be challenged and I'm not interested in being challenged. I am not here to debate or argue about anything whether it is about non-dualism, buddhism, christianity or whatever, I am here to guide...to point..that is all. If you don't want to look at what is being pointed to, that is up to you...and yes, I'm not interested in playing on the merry-go-round.

From my experience of guiding when expectation bubbles are burst, up comes the doubt, fear, anger and resistance - you are not unique. I am asking you to look at those expectations and to become aware of them as expectations are what hinder 'looking'. Something in my responses didn't agree with your expectations, so have a look and let me know what expectations got burst for you.

Here is a comprehensive list of what LU is NOT about.

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby brenden » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:00 am

you want to learn something different, hear something different.
Thank you. The subtle expectation then is to 'finally' hear what all else I have heard has failed to liberate me.
There is no me to liberate. The idea of this self, I am only perpetuating on this form, this idea if volition itself is the ghost that seemingly gets in the way.
The thought is noticed, 'but how do I then make choices?'... I don't. No-one to make them.
Following his line of enquiry, who am I to change, or even question the unfolding nature that plays out in the world of appearances. I truly am in my own way, and that is no-thing.
A cosmic joke indeed, pardon the thought, 'that's what all the sages of old have pointed at'...
The thought now...'what next?". There is no next. It simply a flow. And my seeking the magical answer is a ghosts attempt to swim upstream.
The thought, 'yes but you must survive, make the decision to go to uni and better your life that you have been given'...
Accepting what comes, for I have no volition of my own to desire those things.
Accepting all that is...only this seeming self creates the idea of obstruction.
Shoulders relax. Gratitude.

Brenden.

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:30 am

Hi Brendan,

Wonderful! Thank you for sharing that the expectation is to hear something different that will help you see through the illusion that is seemingly creating confusion and frustration. You just want to SEE clearly and I get that! :) You have an intellectual awareness of no 'person' but you haven't actually SEEN it and this is what you are looking for. So let's get to it! :)

Please answer all questions from actual (direct) experience. I use the term actual experience (AE) which is the same as direct experience. In case you aren't aware of what 'looking' entails - "looking” is just plain looking to what is here right now. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. It’s the ‘awareness’ of sound, taste, smell, sensation and images to explore what is always here, as well as noticing the 'presence' of a thought - not thinking, but noticing or being ‘aware’ of a thought/s.
The subtle expectation then is to 'finally' hear what all else I have heard has failed to liberate me.
Describe to me in detail what this "I" looks like.
Where exactly is this "I" located that can be liberated?
What exactly is it that needs to be liberated?
What exactly is it that can accept or not accept anything?
What is it that needs to survive?


Please look with actual experience (AE) carefully and answer the questions in blue. Please keep it simple.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby brenden » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:09 am

Thank you.
Describe to me in detail what this 'I' looks like?
No substance. I notice, ideas, notions, perceptions, associations, memory. Nothing tangible.
Where exactly is this "I" located that can be liberated?
No pinpoint location. There is a thought that im like behind my eyes LOL. In the head. Thought noticed, as is the thought to 'instantly try and intellectually reason' with "I cannot be anything I perceive, there is no perceiver, only perceiving"... Strong sense that I am the awareness behind the eyes watching.
what exactly needs to be liberated?
No-thing. I notice that too is just thought.
what is it that can accept or not accept anything?
The notion of acceptance or denial is seen. Thought.
what is it that needs to survive?


The thought I am a human organism. The body/mind.

Kind regards,
Brenden.
P.S. Back on tomorrow, off to celebrate this seeming birthday LOL
Much love and the patience shown here is appreciated. I recognise it is no-ones.

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:49 am

Hi Brenden,

Happy Birthday! :) Thank your for being so prompt in answering.
Describe to me in detail what this 'I' looks like?
No substance. I notice, ideas, notions, perceptions, associations, memory. Nothing tangible.
So what exactly is it that notices “ideas, notions, perceptions, associations, memory”?
Where exactly is this "I" located that can be liberated?
No pinpoint location. There is a thought that im like behind my eyes LOL. In the head. Thought noticed, as is the thought to 'instantly try and intellectually reason' with "I cannot be anything I perceive, there is no perceiver, only perceiving"... Strong sense that I am the awareness behind the eyes watching.
What does this “awareness” look like and where in the head is it located?
Describe to me what the inside of the head looks like? Since “awareness” resides in the head, it must know what the inside of the head looks like…right?

Is "awareness" an entity/thing, or is “awareness” a concept that describes the process of thoughts arising about the thoughts that arise?

How is it known that you have eyes and a head?
Can you see ‘your’ eyes and head? Or are there just thoughts, sensations and images that point to the idea of eyes and head?

If you were to press the top of the head with your forefinger….is the pressure that is seemingly felt proof that you have a head or is that just a sensation that thought labels as “head”?

what exactly needs to be liberated?
No-thing. I notice that too is just thought.
Yes, it is just a thought and nothing needs to be liberated, so is this thought appearing to someone/something or it is just appearing?
what is it that can accept or not accept anything?
The notion of acceptance or denial is seen. Thought.
What is it exactly that sees “the notion of acceptance or denial”?
The label “acceptance” is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the AE of acceptance.
The label “denial” is the actual experience (AE) of thought and is NOT the AE of denial.

I’m not clear on whether you are saying that “the notion of acceptance or denial” is a thought, or that it is a thought that accepts and denies?
what is it that needs to survive?
The thought I am a human organism. The body/mind.
So the thought “I am a human organism” is aware of itself and has the desire to survive?
What is the actual experience (AE) of body?
What is the actual experience (AE) of mind?
What exactly is it that has a body or a mind?

Once again please answer all the questions in blue..and look carefully before answering. Only answer from actual experience please.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby brenden » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:46 pm

Thank you Kay. Spending sometime in the bush today, pondering on a deeper looking, the actual experience, to answer those questions. Half way through, revisit this page later today.
Thank you. Starting to sense the conceptual overlay over the actual experience you speak of.

Until then,
Much love
Brenden

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Re: Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:03 pm

Hey Brenden!

Thank you for letting me know :)
Starting to sense the conceptual overlay over the actual experience you speak of.
Nice! :)

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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