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rabbit
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Go

Postby rabbit » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:09 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed? *
Liberation. Even though I can’t say I really know what it is, I’ve gotten to a place where I don't want anything else and there's no place else to go. But I'm not at ease here either, feeling stuck.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum? *
No clear expectations. Maybe some hidden expectations will emerge along the way.
I do hope to cut through my crap, get past this vicious circle of seeker frustration.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry? *
In rough chronological order over past 8 years:
Mid-life crisis, Jung, tantra, entheogens, Jed McKenna, quit job, dead ends (retreats, too much reading, meditation attempts), self-inquiry (á la Ramana, Mooji, Nisargadatta), frustration.

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0kay
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Re: Go

Postby 0kay » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:31 am

Hi, i´m 0kay.
I would like to guide you for a while, but i´m german and my english is basic. There is not much to explain in words, but... feel free to ask for another guide at any time.

Please read here in the upper directory http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/viewforum.php?f=4 , there are "Read this first" and "How to use quote function".

When done please explain in what situations is not as comfortable as it should be, in what situations is it ok?
Hingabe, in den Moment

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rabbit
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Re: Go

Postby rabbit » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:58 pm

Hi Okay. Thanks for signing on.
When done please explain in what situations is not as comfortable as it should be, in what situations is it ok?
It is uncomfortable being a seeker. That feeling that I need to do inquiry, keep focused, keep looking to see if there is a self. But it is boring, fruitless, frustrating. I can see how my idea of self has constellated around this inquiry--the 'inquirer/seeker'. But I've lost most other ambitions and desires.

There's a cycle. Sometimes I figure just f-- it, enjoy, do whatever comes next. At first it can be hard to let go and not listen to that "get back to work, you need to inquire." But after letting go for a while, the self-inquiry comes easier, even enjoyable. But after a short period of easy inquiry, I soon come back to the frustration described above.

Rabbit

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0kay
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Re: Go

Postby 0kay » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:32 pm

I see. This is what happened to all of us. We will work on this.

And i see that the question is not fully answered, in what situations it is uncomfortable and in what situations it is comfortable. This question was asked to let look in direct experience.
Direct experience is looking to what senses bring, without thinking about, without labelling, without giving it a name.
What came up instead was mindful thinking, suffer about the image of an i and not looking for direct experience in this time.

No problem, lets do some training in direct experience: Try it and answer what happened:
Hand on the table, no thinking about. What tactile feelings are coming up?

In the time of this direct experience, was there an image of an i? Was there suffer about?
Hingabe, in den Moment

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rabbit
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Re: Go

Postby rabbit » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:26 am

Hand on the table, no thinking about. What tactile feelings are coming up?
Pressure, unevenly distributed. Some stickiness when there is movement.
In the time of this direct experience, was there an image of an i? Was there suffer about?
No I in the hand.
I appears in extraneous thoughts, as in "I'm going to do this now," or "oops, I was distracted." But even this I is not a sufferer.

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0kay
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Re: Go

Postby 0kay » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:21 am

Well done, lets look for direct experience a bit more.

Sitting on a chair, hand on the table, feet on the ground, eyes closed.
Tactile senses feel something, what exactly?

Is a body felt between this points of sensing?
Could you "see" the form of "body" in direct experience?
Hingabe, in den Moment

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rabbit
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Re: Go

Postby rabbit » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:53 pm

Sitting on a chair, hand on the table, feet on the ground, eyes closed.
Tactile senses feel something, what exactly?

Is a body felt between this points of sensing?
Could you "see" the form of "body" in direct experience?
Dim, flowing lights. Pressure, shifting to different areas. Sometimes a hard pressure (hands on table), sometimes a more general, atmospheric pressure (around the face). Tingling. A slow churning vibration field. Constrictions. Pains and tensions that draw attention and then blur into vibrations after focusing on them. Sounds.

Attention shifts from region to region, from sensation to sound to sight. Sometimes it seems like my attention is not shifting but following the slow flow of some energy tide.

The energy, tingling, pressure and pain seem to concentrate around body parts. But it is never identical with those parts (as imagined through memory). It is impossible to put together an entire body through these memories and sensations. Attention flows to one region at a time.

Thoughts:
“I’ll make fried noodles for lunch.” “That constriction is in my neck.” “Why do you label it your neck?” “OK, that’s enough, let’s go eat.” “No, sit for a while longer.”

Open my eyes and surprised to see where I am.

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Re: Go

Postby 0kay » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:58 pm

Thoughts: “I’ll make fried noodles for lunch.” “That constriction is in my neck.” “Why do you label it your neck?” “OK, that’s enough, let’s go eat.” “No, sit for a while longer.”
Great. In remembering the situation, was there an i who made the thoughts or did they just arrive and disappear?

The lunch... in remembering, was there an i who controlled the eating? Or was is just doing by itself?
Hingabe, in den Moment

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Re: Go

Postby rabbit » Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:28 pm

Great. In remembering the situation, was there an i who made the thoughts or did they just arrive and disappear?
They just come and go. I feelings come and go with them. Including "I'm going to watch the thoughts or sensations. I'm going to remember."
The lunch... in remembering, was there an i who controlled the eating? Or was is just doing by itself?
Just eating.

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0kay
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Re: Go

Postby 0kay » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:19 pm

Yes. Is (in your experince and feeling) "i" more than a label, attached to thoughts?
If it is unclear throw a few coins in the air, catch with one hand as much as possible and look, if an i makes decisions and controlling.
Hingabe, in den Moment

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rabbit
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Re: Go

Postby rabbit » Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:43 am

look, if an i makes decisions and controlling.
No, not when I look.
But all too easy to forget when the 'should' thoughts come rolling through.
Yes. Is (in your experince and feeling) "i" more than a label, attached to thoughts?
With thoughts, it is just a label, a framing.

There is also that subjectivity that does the looking, that sees the thoughts. It doesn't come with stories and anxieties. But always there--me as existence.

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Re: Go

Postby 0kay » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:05 am

Ok, there is seen that "i" is an attachment in thoughts.

Here it was sometimes needed to look for the absence of an i when thoughts and feelings are rolling through and the awareness was with them but not with direct experience.
Especially when there was suffering there was a need to look for... it helped to look for what is suffering, watching the suffer and then it disappeared, slowly. The same with other feelings, there was often awareness to the feeling but not to direct experience.

Here it is not shure what is ment with subjectivity and me. Is it like feeling, like an attribute "mine" in thoughts? Watch this subjectivity, this me for a while, if it becomes unsharp or disappear.

And try to find the borders of subjectivity, are there borders or is it all seamless?
Hingabe, in den Moment

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Re: Go

Postby rabbit » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:14 pm

Especially when there was suffering there was a need to look for... it helped to look for what is suffering, watching the suffer and then it disappeared, slowly. The same with other feelings, there was often awareness to the feeling but not to direct experience.
Yes. Also difficult not to get caught up in pleasure, to remember to look for who is experiencing pleasure.

Physical pain is easier. It is unpleasant, and easy to remember to look if anybody is feeling it. But psychological pain (like pleasure) ambushes from behind, invades the role of the looker.
Here it is not shure what is ment with subjectivity and me. Is it like feeling, like an attribute "mine" in thoughts? Watch this subjectivity, this me for a while, if it becomes unsharp or disappear. And try to find the borders of subjectivity, are there borders or is it all seamless?
Who or what is watching? I can't watch the subjectivity, because the subjectivity is behind the watching.

It is not a feeling. It is awareness of the feeling. Perhaps awareness or consciousness is a better word. Or being.
The "I" feeling is impossible without it, although they are not the same thing.

Any borders to it are just thoughts, imaginations. So, if there are borders, I don't know what they are. As far as I can tell it is seamless. The fractures of thoughts and sensations happen within it.

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0kay
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Re: Go

Postby 0kay » Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:59 pm

Yes, good to see.

Now we find out if things happen more by itself, triggered by circumstances, or if an i is working to manage it:
Make five paperballs or take five pencils or coins, throw them up with one hand and try to catch some before they fall down. Do this a few times, looking for direct experience.

Did an i made a decision to throw them?
Did an i choose the throwing hand?
Had an i control about which parts were caught?
Is an i responsible for some results when doing or not doing happens?
Hingabe, in den Moment

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rabbit
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Re: Go

Postby rabbit » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:44 am

Did an i made a decision to throw them?
Did an i choose the throwing hand?
Had an i control about which parts were caught?
Is an i responsible for some results when doing or not doing happens?
I used beads. Hands threw, beads flew, floor was littered. Can't see an i doing any of them.

Have to watch out, though, because passive i thoughts still say that these things happened to me. That I may not be responsible for them, but I still experienced them. Another thought.


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