Company for the Path

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Seekerz
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Company for the Path

Postby Seekerz » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:09 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
Have inquired into the nature of thoughts, mind, self and ego after an emotional upheavel has given birth in me to look for answers in my quest for spirituality, literally bumped into LU during some casual surfing (Quora)

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?
Simplify and de-mystify spirituality

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
Plenty of exploration of the buddhist philosophies, some meditation

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ElPortal
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby ElPortal » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:57 pm

Hi there, and welcome to LU.

Here the main function is to look until any 'separate I' is seen through, by looking in actual first-hand now experience (rather than in debate, other people's teachings or cerebral logic).

Would you like to tell me:-
1. a little more about what you are looking for, and
2. what should be different from how it is now?

Then we can see whether I can accompany you.

Would also be handy to know your name, and which time zone you are in. I am in European time (France).

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Seekerz
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby Seekerz » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:07 pm

Hi Mark,

Been waiting for someone to walk me through this, yes, i totally appreciate your help. cant wait.

By the way you can address me as "Iq" short for Iqbal, my first name

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ElPortal
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby ElPortal » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:59 pm

HI, pleased to 'meet' you, Iq.

Maybe you'd like to consider my couple of questions above, 1. and 2. and let me know your responses.

Then, some basic terms of working together, as this is a serious matter. Please watch the introductory videos, read the disclaimer on the home page (f you haven't already) and agree to some basic ground rules:

1. Post at least once every second day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. There is no teacher here; all I do is point. You look, until seeing is clear.
3. Look deeply and sincerely, then respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond simply and directly from immediate personal experience only (felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long-winded analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers which may even hinder progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation, even leaving aside other people's LU threads. Really put all your attention into looking for yourself into this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, of course continue that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like to be guided - then we'll continue.

A couple of practical points about posting in this forum.

1. When clicking 'Post Reply' at the bottom of the page you get the editor where you can type an answer. You can also preview the answer before it is posted. Experiment as much as needed. Nothing gets posted unless the 'Submit' button is clicked.
2. The forum can log you out without warning. If you're typing a post directly in the edit box here, and you get logged out before you click Submit, your words can get lost. There are two ways to avoid this. One, use the Preview button frequently. That will keep you logged in. Or two, type your responses in a separate program like Notepad first, then copy and paste them into the forum. (But that way you don't get to use the quote function and have to use BBCode to highlight quotes.)
3. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool (there is a post about this at the top of the 'Gate' forum).
4. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.
5. It could be handy to know which time zone you are in. I am in France: Central European Time (= GMT+1).

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Seekerz
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby Seekerz » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:51 pm

Done Mark, lets get started.

Whats next

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ElPortal
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby ElPortal » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:53 pm

"Would you like to tell me:-
1. a little more about what you are looking for, and
2. what should be different from how it is now?"

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Seekerz
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby Seekerz » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:10 pm

Would you like to tell me:-
1. a little more about what you are looking for
I understand that concept of "I" intellectually however the dis-association from the identification with that "ego self" if i can call it that is not that easy, encased in that physical body it is hard to "get it"

2. what should be different from how it is now?"
To finally be able to see it clearly once and for all that i am not all my senses not this body not the ego and feel it in my bones

Cheers

Mark

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ElPortal
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby ElPortal » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:36 am

Hi Iq and thanks for those answers, clearly put.

A. Earlier you wrote:-
an emotional upheavel has given birth in me to look for answers in my quest for spirituality
Ah yes, suffering: that great tutor which can bring us to the 'gateway to heaven'! Would you like to tell me any more about this emotional upheaval, and where are you at with it now?

B. When you write of the 'ego' and of "the identification with that 'ego self' if i can call it that", please could you tell me - as best you can in your own words - what are you referring to? Not someone else's definition, but what feels REAL to you about it? Does this exist as a concept/thought/theory (T), or as an experience (E)? What is the actual experience?

(I will be inviting you, as you question, to notice which parts are mental ideas, speculations, theories, labels, commentaries, interpretations, theories, reports, which we will often label (T) for thoughts, and which parts are actual first-hand raw experience, which we shall label (E) for experience. Hope you're comfortable with this. Let me know if not).

When you consider my questions, please take time to ponder carefully, not hurrying, not thinking for the answers, but feeling out what feels real to you. This will not be a regular intellectual discussion. Always report back any feelings and sensations which come up, just honestly, as well as your answers to my questions. There are never any wrong answers.

Warmly

Mark.
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Seekerz
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby Seekerz » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:56 am

This is going to be long, will post in awhile

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ElPortal
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby ElPortal » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:10 am

That's fine, Iq.

As I said, take time each time to ponder each question and to look into what feels real.
No need to let me know unless it's going to take more than a couple of days.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Seekerz
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby Seekerz » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Hi Iq and thanks for those answers, clearly put.


A. Earlier you wrote:-
an emotional upheavel has given birth in me to look for answers in my quest for spirituality
I'd say it all began 3 years ago wtih my fathers passing, what followed was a long long period of brooding over the past and realizing that i wasnt a good Son and could never express my feelings and appreciation for all his sacrifices but that little did i realize it was only hindsight, the brooding and regret just spiralled into a full blown nervous breakdown.

I was experiencing anxiety attacks, dime a dozen, every day every moment was painful beyond belief, it felt like i was a totally different person, it all happened so fast i could barely register all the emotional drama, it was like being swept away helplessly. A few months into i couldnt stand it anymore, it got so bad i would get startled from my own heart beats, you can imgaine how nerve racking each day was.

I was on medication briefly but having seen my mothers dependency on OCD meds i knew it was not the fix, it was only going to numb my pain, while all of this was happening i was slowly learning about meditation, zen and buddhist teachings. A few years ago i had read Tolles Power Of Now, it got me started on my long long search that has now got me to you. I am much much better now, i can see anxiety attacks coming from a mile away and do not indulge in behaviours that excaerbate it.

B. When you write of the 'ego' and of "the identification with that 'ego self' if i can call it that", please could you tell me - as best you can in your own words - what are you referring to? Not someone else's definition, but what feels REAL to you about it? Does this exist as a concept/thought/theory (T), or as an experience (E)? What is the actual experience?
As you pointed out earlier, this entire experience has bought a tremendous urge within me to see beyond the ego and experience the reality that I am "NOT", i can also see now how i was functioning on auto pilot for all my life which has lead to some many contradictions and unlikely outcomes that i thought were not my doing, yes now it is clear that i was living out all the negativity of the mind and was manifesting it and wondering all the time "why do bad things happen"

Thanks Mark

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ElPortal
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby ElPortal » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:51 pm

Hi Iq

... and thanks for your openness and frankness. Funnily enough, in the 'story of Mark' a similar parental loss with a similar reaction played a part in liberation from this illusion.

A. On the second question, I would now like you to answer it more directly. What I mean in my question is: please give me your meaning of the word 'ego'. (What do you mean when you use that word? I don't mean someone else's terminology, but what do YOU mean by it?). Then tell me whether that is a concept (T) or an experience (E). If the latter, please describe the actual experience of ego as it appears in this moment, as fully as you can.

B. Now sit quietly and comfortably for a few moments. I would like you to look for 'yesterday' and write down some images and sensations in a list, whatever comes up. Then look for 'tomorrow'. Similarly list the images, sensations and whatever comes up. When you have a list, write after each item either (T) for a thought, concept etc (as in my previous posting), or (E) for actual experience. Where are 'yesterday' and 'tomorrow' in this present experience?

As I said before, take time, ponder, see what's coming up in the firsthand now experience... then let me know.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Seekerz
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby Seekerz » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:20 pm

A. On the second question, I would now like you to answer it more directly. What I mean in my question is: please give me your meaning of the word 'ego'. (What do you mean when you use that word? I don't mean someone else's terminology, but what do YOU mean by it?). Then tell me whether that is a concept (T) or an experience (E). If the latter, please describe the actual experience of ego as it appears in this moment, as fully as you can.
During intense moments of anxiety i could at times watch i my mind tell me how catastrophic the next moment will be, how my heart will explode, how i will choke in the elevator, how i wont be able to get off the train, how truck in my rear view will bang into my car, how i will experience something, usually horrific if i travel to unfamiliar places, how i am going to die with some terminal illness. I guess this qualifies as a "T" and "E" both.

B.
Now sit quietly and comfortably for a few moments. I would like you to look for 'yesterday' and write down some images and sensations in a list, whatever comes up. Then look for 'tomorrow'. Similarly list the images, sensations and whatever comes up. When you have a list, write after each item either (T) for a thought, concept etc (as in my previous posting), or (E) for actual experience.
If by yesterday you mean quite literally the day before, than i "see" what i did yesterday, what the day was about at work, at the gym, some specific moments stand out, the drab usual stuff gets forgotten in the back ground.
And if by yesterday you mean the past the haunts, then it the mind immediately, as if on cue responds with all the negativity and all the things that "i" could have done right or not at all, accompaniying feelings are that of regret, sadness even anger at myself

Similarly "tomorrow" i think in this case you are referring to what is the kind of future i can visualiZe, the mind gets to work and designs a fairy tale ending where i get to right all the wrongs or at least redeem myself with some corrective actions. I can feel a sense of relief that you get after you finish something important that should have been done a long time ago, a sense of closure and satisfaction
Where are 'yesterday' and 'tomorrow' in this present experience?
In the present experience all this business is in the dimension of thought, no more real than the craving for a cheesecake :-)

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ElPortal
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby ElPortal » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:54 pm

Hi Iq
Where are 'yesterday' and 'tomorrow' in this present experience?

In the present experience all this business is in the dimension of thought, no more real than the craving for a cheesecake :-)
Great!! We're already at first base. Steady on the cheesecake!
During intense moments of anxiety i could at times watch i my mind tell me how catastrophic the next moment will be, how my heart will explode, how i will choke in the elevator, how i wont be able to get off the train, how truck in my rear view will bang into my car, how i will experience something, usually horrific if i travel to unfamiliar places, how i am going to die with some terminal illness. I guess this qualifies as a "T" and "E" both.
So, in A. it looks from your reply as though you are interpreting 'ego' as 'fear'. All of what you describe there seem to be thoughts and imaginations, so "T", rather than "E". If there are associated bodily sensations then these will be "E", right?

In the exercise (B) I mean literally 'yesterday' and literally 'tomorrow'. 1. What I would like you to do is sit again for a minute or two maximum , with the word 'yesterday'. Make a written list of what thoughts, pictures, bodily sensations and feelings come up. and then when you have done that, ponder for a moment and after each one add the label either (T) or (E). 2. Then repeat this with 'tomorrow'. 3. When you have done those, I would like you to do it a third time with "RIGHT NOW". Again notice all that comes up, make a list and again then apply the labels either (T) or (E) after each item. So at the end you should have three lists with (T)'s and (E)'s after each phrase in the list. Then please share those with me.

If you don't understand just let me know.

Again, don't hurry. Take time to consider, to look, to ponder.
Are you eager to look in this way?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Seekerz
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Re: Company for the Path

Postby Seekerz » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:43 pm

Hi Mark,

At the outset thanks for your patience in case i am confusing you with my warped understanding of your questions, anyhow here we go i took my time to really go over what you asked for
In the exercise (B) I mean literally 'yesterday' and literally 'tomorrow'. 1. What I would like you to do is sit again for a minute or two maximum , with the word 'yesterday'. Make a written list of what thoughts, pictures, bodily sensations and feelings come up. and then when you have done that, ponder for a moment and after each one add the label either (T) or (E). 2. Then repeat this with 'tomorrow'. 3. When you have done those, I would like you to do it a third time with "RIGHT NOW". Again notice all that comes up, make a list and again then apply the labels either (T) or (E) after each item. So at the end you should have three lists with (T)'s and (E)'s after each phrase in the list. Then please share those with me.
Yesterday

Driving to work and having to deal with the traffic (E)
Eating (E)
Shopping (E)
Day at work (E)
Thinking too hard about yesterday is making me impatient as i look for more details which qualifies as appropriate to your request(T)

Tomorrow

Mentally rehearsing the day that will follow and all things that need to be done (T)
Anticipating an important phone call i have to make and prepare to deal with the objections if any that come along (T)

Now
Writing this as i think (E)
Thinking about what your next question will be (T)
Am able to provide enough material for you to work with (T)
Satiety after dinner (E)
Am i annoying mark who is trying to help me from across the continent (T)


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