Still here

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Geoffrey
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:33 pm

Still here

Postby Geoffrey » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:38 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
the desire to see through the belief that I am a person.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
i am not sure what to expect.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
i have been seeking and inquiring into the nature of life and who I am since my early teens, over 50 years.

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Ghata
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Re: Still here

Postby Ghata » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:45 pm

Hi Geoffrey,

my name is Ghata and I am happy to guide you.

I am not a teacher, I am a guide. You will not learn anything from me. I will ask you questions and you answer them from your actual experience. Please post once a day, I will do the same. If you can't do it, post a short note. It is vital that you are 100% honest.

You have been searching for a long time and most likely came to know many paths. Please put everything aside, stop reading and watching videos while you are doing the inquiry here.

Here it is not about what you have read. It is about finding out for yourself what is true.

Some technical help:
Please use the quote funktion in your answers for more ease in communication http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 .

Click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

This site sometimes loses the posts while writing. To avoid that save your post in regular intervals in the intermediate storage using 1. CTRL+A (mark) 2. CTRL+C (save)

Are you ok with this?


Here are my first questions. I will write the questions in Italic.

Write more about your lifelong search. Where did you search, what did you find? Have you had any experiences you can relate to the idea of the self being an illusion?

What do you think seeing that there is no I, no person will look like? How would you feel?



Share what you find.

With love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Geoffrey
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:33 pm

Re: Still here

Postby Geoffrey » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:32 am

Hi Geoffrey,

my name is Ghata and I am happy to guide you.

I am not a teacher, I am a guide. You will not learn anything from me. I will ask you questions and you answer them from your actual experience. Please post once a day, I will do the same. If you can't do it, post a short note. It is vital that you are 100% honest.

You have been searching for a long time and most likely came to know many paths. Please put everything aside, stop reading and watching videos while you are doing the inquiry here.

Here it is not about what you have read. It is about finding out for yourself what is true.

Some technical help:
Please use the quote funktion in your answers for more ease in communication http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 .

Click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

This site sometimes loses the posts while writing. To avoid that save your post in regular intervals in the intermediate storage using 1. CTRL+A (mark) 2. CTRL+C (save)

Are you ok with this?


Here are my first questions. I will write the questions in Italic.

Write more about your lifelong search. Where did you search, what did you find? Have you had any experiences you can relate to the idea of the self being an illusion?

What do you think seeing that there is no I, no person will look like? How would you feel?



Share what you find.

With love,
Ghata
Hi Ghata, thank you for contacting me. I will try to answer your questions.
I have searched in books, videos, teachers, retreats, satsangs etc. I have found lots of ideas and concepts, but I am still left with this sense of self. I am not able to find or locate it, but it persists. It is a feeling of being in control. I run the show and I am responsible.
I have a recurring dream in which I find myself in a strange city. I don't know where I am but I have to catch a flight on a plane. To get to the airport I will have to travel quite a distance. But I do not know how to get there. I have lost my wallet and cell phone. I am very anxious,
Seeing that there is no I would feel sad, like what is the point.
Hi Geoffrey,

my name is Ghata and I am happy to guide you.

I am not a teacher, I am a guide. You will not learn anything from me. I will ask you questions and you answer them from your actual experience. Please post once a day, I will do the same. If you can't do it, post a short note. It is vital that you are 100% honest.

You have been searching for a long time and most likely came to know many paths. Please put everything aside, stop reading and watching videos while you are doing the inquiry here.

Here it is not about what you have read. It is about finding out for yourself what is true.

Some technical help:
Please use the quote funktion in your answers for more ease in communication http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 .

Click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

This site sometimes loses the posts while writing. To avoid that save your post in regular intervals in the intermediate storage using 1. CTRL+A (mark) 2. CTRL+C (save)

Are you ok with this?


Here are my first questions. I will write the questions in Italic.

Write more about your lifelong search. Where did you search, what did you find? Have you had any experiences you can relate to the idea of the self being an illusion?

What do you think seeing that there is no I, no person will look like? How would you feel?



Share what you find.

With love,
Ghata

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Ghata
Posts: 1810
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Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Still here

Postby Ghata » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:36 am

Hi Geoffrey,

thank you for sharing your fears so openly.
Seeing that there is no I would feel sad, like what is the point.
Seeing through the Illusion of I doesn't mean you will lose the I and with it your whole identity. The I doesn't exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.

You have probably heard about the analogy to Santa. As a child you may have believed that there was a Santa delivering the gifts. One day you found out there wasn't any Santa. Now Santa didn't sudddenly die or was lost - he had never been there in the first place. And you still got the gifts.

It is a feeling of being in control. I run the show and I am responsible.
Let's have a look at the feeling of you being in control. Play with this exercise:

Hold one hand with the palm up. Flip it over, palm down. Keep doing it. Now watch like a hawk. Considering only what you can be directly aware of, who or what controls the movement? Who chose the left or right hand for the exercise?

Share what you find.

With love,
Ghata

P.S. For the quote funktion it is easiest to just quote the questions or the words you are referring to. To answer the blue button 'Post reply'. Then scroll down to my last answer, mark what you want to quote and press quote button.
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Geoffrey
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:33 pm

Re: Still here

Postby Geoffrey » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:40 pm

Hi Geoffrey,

thank you for sharing your fears so openly.
Seeing that there is no I would feel sad, like what is the point.
Seeing through the Illusion of I doesn't mean you will lose the I and with it your whole identity. The I doesn't exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.

You have probably heard about the analogy to Santa. As a child you may have believed that there was a Santa delivering the gifts. One day you found out there wasn't any Santa. Now Santa didn't sudddenly die or was lost - he had never been there in the first place. And you still got the gifts.

I get the Santa analogy, once that was seen through it became obvious and it could not be unseen. So we never go back to believing in Santa. But even though the idea of a self is seen through, when the shit hits the fan it comes rushing back in.

To give a example I cannot figure out how to use the "Quote" function on this forum and that makes me feel stupid.
That feeling seems to be the real me.
It is a feeling of being in control. I run the show and I am responsible.
Let's have a look at the feeling of you being in control. Play with this exercise:

Hold one hand with the palm up. Flip it over, palm down. Keep doing it. Now watch like a hawk. Considering only what you can be directly aware of, who or what controls the movement? Who chose the left or right hand for the exercise?

I did the exercise and there seems to be no one or nothing controlling the movement, it is just happening by itself.
Unless the thought comes "I am doing this"
But something is happening and something is aware of that.
Share what you find.

With love,
Ghata

P.S. For the quote funktion it is easiest to just quote the questions or the words you are referring to. To answer the blue button 'Post reply'. Then scroll down to my last answer, mark what you want to quote and press quote button.

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Ghata
Posts: 1810
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Location: Germany
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Re: Still here

Postby Ghata » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:25 am

Hi Geoffrey,
I did the exercise and there seems to be no one or nothing controlling the movement, it is just happening by itself.
Unless the thought comes "I am doing this".
Nice looking :-). Nobody is in control, the movement just happens. And then a thought claims the doing.
But something is happening and something is aware of that
We will look at that in a moment
But even though the idea of a self is seen through, when the shit hits the fan it comes rushing back in.
Please describe in detail your experience of looking through the idea of a self

To give a example I cannot figure out how to use the "Quote" function on this forum and that makes me feel stupid.
That feeling seems to be the real me.
In a minute you will have to use the quote function again.

What does "that makes me feel stupid" refer to? Are there body sensations somewhere? If so, please describe where they are and how they feel. From present evidence,is there an I being aware of the feeling or is their just feeling? Do the sensations themselves already have the notion of "stupid" or of "I am stupid"? Where is that coming from? Have a look.

If no body sensations are related to you feeling stupid, what says "that makes me feel stupid"?

Share your experiences.


With love,
Ghata

P.S. Quote function: After reading my post, click the blue button "Post reply" on the bottom left. An empty window will open.
Scroll down again to see my last post. Reading it mark what you want to quote - in any case everything that is in italic - go to the top of this very post and press 'quote'. The Quote will appear in the empty window.

Be sure to write your answer after the end of the code for quote: [/quote] Your answer.
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Geoffrey
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:33 pm

Re: Still here

Postby Geoffrey » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:23 pm

[quote][/quote]
I am trying to use,the quote function, how do I "mark" the passage I want to quote.
I just get more frustrated and angry. It is a knot in my stomach, I want to not feel it.
The more I look the more I see just body sensations. But there is also a thought that I am this, I want this, this is me, without this I am nothing.

Looking for the self always ends with who is looking. Am I split in two, one part looking for another part? There seems to be no escape.

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Ghata
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Re: Still here

Postby Ghata » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:37 am

Hi Geoffrey,
I just get more frustrated and angry. It is a knot in my stomach, I want to not feel it.
The more I look the more I see just body sensations. But there is also a thought that I am this, I want this, this is me, without this I am nothing.
Well seen :-)
A feeling is just a body sensation. Then a thought attaches the Label "I am this" to it and other thoughts come up reinforcing the idea of 'I' with "I am that, without this I am nothing".

Looking for the self always ends with who is looking. Am I split in two, one part looking for another part? There seems to be no escape.
Soon you will try to quote once more.

Look into your feelings again. Feel the body sensations and describe them. Do they have a name like stupid? Where is that name coming from? Also look and answer from your actual experience: Is there a feeler and the felt? Or is there just feeling?


Please be sure to answer all questions in italic. This question from the last post still remains unanswered.
Geoffrey wrote:
But even though the idea of a self is seen through, when the shit hits the fan it comes rushing back in.
Please describe in detail your experience of looking through the idea of a self
With love,
Ghata


P.S. Mark or select a text block: The most common way to select text is by using the computer mouse. Point the mouse at the start of the text block, press the left mouse key and then drag the mouse over the text you want to select. As you drag, the text becomes highlighted or selected. Release the mouse key — stop the dragging — to mark the end of the block.
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Geoffrey
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:33 pm

Re: Still here

Postby Geoffrey » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:41 pm

Ghata wrote:
Geoffrey wrote:
But even though the idea of a self is seen through, when the shit hits the fan it comes rushing back in.
Please describe in detail your experience of looking through the idea of a self
My actual experience is thoughts and sensations. Sensations include feelings in the body and perceptions, such as seeing, hearing etc.
So if I am looking for the self, I,me, I look at all those experiences to find the self.
Am I a thought,no I have thoughts.
Am I this tingling in my feet, no I am feeling that.
Am I what I see or hear, no that is outside of me.
Am I this body, no I have a body.
So where am I? I cannot find myself yet I feel that I exist. That's the sticking point.
Look into your feelings again. Feel the body sensations and describe them. Do they have a name like stupid? Where is that name coming from? Also look and answer from your actual experience: Is there a feeler and the felt? Or is there just feeling?
Ok so right now I feel a tingling in my left hand. "Tingling" is just a way to communicate how it feels, the feeling itself is not the word. The feeling is, actually I don't know what it is. Unless I add a label to it, I don't know what it is.
So no, body sensations don't come with labels attached like "stupid" . But it is difficult to say which comes first.


There seems to be a witness to feelings, or an awareness of feelings. Otherwise how would I know?

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Ghata
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Re: Still here

Postby Ghata » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:57 pm

Hi Geoffrey,
Ok so right now I feel a tingling in my left hand. "Tingling" is just a way to communicate how it feels, the feeling itself is not the word. The feeling is, actually I don't know what it is. Unless I add a label to it, I don't know what it is.
So no, body sensations don't come with labels attached like "stupid" .

Very good looking. It is as you said. First the feeling has no name and you can't know what it is. Then a label is added. Where is the I that seems to add the label?
I cannot find myself yet I feel that I exist. That's the sticking point.
Where do you feel the 'I'? Which sensations tell you that there must be an I though you cannot find it?


With love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Geoffrey
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:33 pm

Re: Still here

Postby Geoffrey » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:29 pm

Where do you feel the 'I'? Which sensations tell you that there must be an I though you cannot find it?
Sensations coming from the stomach area and up through the chest and throat. Also behind the eyes.
But if I really look at these sensations none of them tell me there must be an I.

The I is assumed. That's all it is, an assumption.

It arises from what is NOT looked at clearly.

Wow!

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Ghata
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Re: Still here

Postby Ghata » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:43 pm

Hi Geoffrey,
But if I really look at these sensations none of them tell me there must be an I.

The I is assumed. That's all it is, an assumption.

It arises from what is NOT looked at clearly.

Wow!
Beautiful to hear :-)

Look into your feeling of 'I' whenever it arises.


With much love,
Ghata

P.S. Thank you for making the effort with the quote function. You already got it to work last time, I forgot to mention it.
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Ghata
Posts: 1810
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Location: Germany
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Re: Still here

Postby Ghata » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:20 am

Hi Geoffrey,

how are you doing?

Please write more about which sensations you had assumed to be an 'I'. How does it feel to see that they are just sensations?


With love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Geoffrey
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:33 pm

Re: Still here

Postby Geoffrey » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:38 am

Please write more about which sensations you had assumed to be an 'I'. How does it feel to see that they are just sensations?
The sensations I assumed to be I were/are behind my eyes. That is where the I seemed to be centered.
It is stronger when my eyes are open. But even with eyes closed, there is still a sense of that place is me.

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Ghata
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Re: Still here

Postby Ghata » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:47 am

Hi Geoffrey,

thank you for answering. Keep the ball rolling, momentum is important.
The sensations I assumed to be I were/are behind my eyes. That is where the I seemed to be centered.
It is stronger when my eyes are open. But even with eyes closed, there is still a sense of that place is me.

What do you experience exactly? Tingling or pressure or anything else behind the eyes? What shape does this me have. What is it there for?

The I is assumed. That's all it is, an assumption.

It arises from what is NOT looked at clearly.

Wow!
How did you feel when first realising these sensations were just sensations, that an 'I' cannot be found when looking at it clearly?


With love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de


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