From somewhere to nowhere

[jacksonrj05]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
Over 30 years of searching, thinking, seeking to know what is. I understand
as most seekers do, from a knowledge standpoint, I know but I do not.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?
To help and guide me to see true reality once and for all.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
Over 20 years of searching, thinking, seeking to know what IS, Read pretty
much all of Osho, all of Adyashanti books, paid for an awaken session with
Fred Davis, Tolles - Power of Now and Maharshi. Worked on the inquiry " Who am I",
got to the answer of no answer and wondered is that it, but the mind thinks there must be more that that
blankest of no answer.

[Alexw]

Hi Jackson,

Thank you for your introduction and welcome to LU!
My name is Alex and I am happy to discuss this with you.

Worked on the inquiry " Who am I", got to the answer of no answer and wondered is that it, but the mind thinks there must be more than that blankest of no answer.

Does the "mind" think? Can you find a separate entity "mind" at all or are there simply thoughts arising?

Do you control these thoughts? Is there a self, a thinker, that is in charge of which thought to think next?

When you got the answer of "no answer" to your inquiry " Who am I"...
Who gave the answer (even if the answer was "there is no answer!")? And who asked the question?

Regards,
Alex

[jacksonrj05]

thank you Alex for welcoming me in.

After reading the question a few times, as my intelligence attempted to process a reply, I began to laugh when the last question of who gave the answer and who asked the question, my reply was 'nothing' no one.

No the mind does not think, thoughts arise and fall without an owner, But the one question again I got struck on is "can I find a separate entity 'mind' at all", leads me fixed on the word separate, where I think the mind is a part of me in some way. But where is that 'me' that the mind is a part of? if there is no me, than the mind belongs to whom or where. As you can see it's starting to spin.

[Alexw]

No the mind does not think, thoughts arise and fall without an owner

Yes, well seen!

Does anything else have an owner?
Do you own this experience? Is there an experiencer separate from the experience?
When you sit down and simply listen... is there a listener that is separate from the listening, is listening separate from sound?

But the one question again I got struck on is "can I find a separate entity 'mind' at all", leads me fixed on the word separate, where I think the mind is a part of me in some way. But where is that 'me' that the mind is a part of? if there is no me, than the mind belongs to whom or where. As you can see it's starting to spin.

Show me these "parts" that you are talking about. Where are they?
Is this experience - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling - cut into separate, individual parts? Or is there only thought that comes up with these concepts? When you neglect thought about the experience, where is the separation? Is there a subject experiencing objects? What do you find in this direct experience?

What if there really are no parts? What if there is only the idea/concept of a partitioned universe?

[jacksonrj05]

hummm!

Does anything else have an owner? - the answer is no, its all just thoughts, feelings and seeing of which a summary of what I am seeing or hearing for that matter, which are thoughts in itself. Is there an experiencer separate from the experience? again in reality it's just experience without an owner, but yes but a summary of that experiences comes after which makes it appear to be an owner, a very strong feeling of ownership, because the thoughts are center or developed or 'heard' my me only. listening is not separate from sound and there as before is no listener until the summary of what I think the sounds is. The mind that is a part of me, I realize is the summary of thoughts that are thoughts that come from nowhere, part due to conditioning, years of believing this or that, where in the end if not directly experienced it is false. Nonetheless here we are sort of speak, holding on to them. Yes if I neglect the summary of thoughts all there is is what's happening. You find just what is happening. And what if there is only the idea/concept of a partitioned universe then there is no problem or problems ever. I know this but cannot realize or have it dissolve or let it pass on by. If only I knew where the switch is to turn on the light.

[Alexw]

it's just experience without an owner, but yes but a summary of that experiences comes after which makes it appear to be an owner, a very strong feeling of ownership, because the thoughts are center or developed or 'heard' by me only

Yes, just the experience, no owner or separate experiencer...
Are thoughts heard/thought by a "you"? Where is this "you" that thinks thoughts? Is it separate from the thought itself?
Or is there simply thought arising and vanishing - thats it..?

If there is no "me" that hears these thoughts, in which way do they belong to "you"?
Do they belong any more to "you" than a sound belongs to you? If only "you" hear a sound - nobody else around - does this fact make it "your" sound?

a very strong feeling of ownership

Please describe this feeling of ownership. Is this a physical sensation? If so, what tells you that this sensation is a "feeling of ownership"? Or is this "ownership" just an idea - a belief that is being entertained?

The mind that is a part of me, I realize is the summary of thoughts that are thoughts that come from nowhere

Ok, they come from nowhere... But why do they belong to "you"? If you can't find this separate I/self, and the only thing you can find is a thought, then why would you believe that this thought has to belong to someone? I know we are brought up with this belief, but maybe its time to question it :-)

And what if there is only the idea/concept of a partitioned universe then there is no problem or problems ever. I know this but cannot realize or have it dissolve or let it pass on by. If only I knew where the switch is to turn on the light.

OK.. no separation, no problems anymore...
So please show me separation. Where do you find separation?
Look, hear, smell, taste, feel... can you find any borders, any separation in pure experiencing? Where do borders come from? What defines this subject as a separate entity from all these objects out there?

When you sit down and simply look at an object in front of you... does seeing itself provide any information about separation? Any information about a "you" that is separate from the object, e.g. a tree..? What do you find in this direct experience of seeing?

Alex

[jacksonrj05]

wow Alex you sticking it to me.
There is no me that thinks these thoughts, but after they are heard it appears to be mine or for me to hear only. Is it separate from the thought itself, meaning is the 'me' separate from the thoughts? yes until "i" decide to react to them or believe in them. Like a fire truck going by I look but I also wonder where it is going, where is the smoke.etc.
And yes it arise and falls and another thought rises and falls, maybe it continues or changes directions, then feelings add on to it.

There is no me to hear them in the instances, split second, ah but thoughts comes right on in and tells me a story about it.

If I am the only one around, that sound does not belong to me. It's a part of all at that present moment.

Maybe not a feeling of ownership but a thought that it is mine, wow it keeps leading back to thoughts, humm.
Yes it is a belief, a TV show, are thoughts the same as sound?, and yes I do not own the sound.

Yes I do not create the thoughts, I cannot stop them or start them, and if they are like a sound of which I do not own, the issue is where I hear the thoughts versus where I hear sound through my ears. Why would I think the thoughts belong to someone, I am starting to doubt they do.

In pure experiencing there is no separation, no borders, hahaha the borders come from thoughts after the experiences.

Seeing itself there is no information about separation, only the experiences, I disappear. Just seeing a tree as experiencing, there is no tree, there is no name for it, it is just seeing, no me, just seeing.

[Alexw]

I do not create the thoughts, I cannot stop them or start them, and if they are like a sound of which I do not own

Yes, well seen, you do not create or control thoughts - just like you do not create or control sound...

the issue is where I hear the thoughts versus where I hear sound through my ears. Why would I think the thoughts belong to someone, I am starting to doubt they do.

Is there a "you" that hears/thinks thoughts? Is there a "you" that hears sound? Where is it? Maybe this is just a thought stating that it should be like that... so... yes... why would you think that a thought belongs to someone? Maybe you have learned that over the years... maybe this is common knowledge, just like it was common knowledge that the earth is a flat disc some 1000 years ago..?

yes until "i" decide to react to them or believe in them.

Is there an "I" that decides anything? Or are decisions simply another thought that states "I have decided that!"... but where is the decider..?
Sit down and simply think of a number between 1 and 10... a thought pops up... "I have chosen 3!"... very well... was there a controlling entity that decided which number to think? Or did "3" just arise out of nowhere and then another thought "I decided that!"... See what you find...

I do not create the thoughts, I cannot stop them or start them

Ahhh... ok... so there we go... what now...?

Why would I think the thoughts belong to someone, I am starting to doubt they do.

Good! Keep this doubt going and investigate...

In pure experiencing there is no separation, no borders, hahaha the borders come from thoughts after the experiences

Yes, well seen!

Seeing itself there is no information about separation, only the experiences, I disappear. Just seeing a tree as experiencing, there is no tree, there is no name for it, it is just seeing, no me, just seeing.

...again, yes!

How does that make you feel?

[jacksonrj05]

Clearer some falling off.

The pick a number funny!:)- was I whom picked that number or did that number arise by itself and later I announced it with a thought? yes I see it now, it's just an image of a number and it just shows up. ok let me go deeper on this.
Once the question is asked on pick a number, there is a space of no thought as if waiting for a reply or arrival and that arrival is a image of what every that number is. What seems to happen is that I is controlling the space and wait and produced the number, but really it truly does just show up, the rest is a story.

Can I go back to the hear/think thoughts, please. I see thoughts like hearing just shows up, why is it clear to me hearing there's no doubt about it, but thoughts I see different than sound or even feelings? there's separation. If it is old knowledge how does one change that? like before there's doubt that's true but....

In any given moment there are moments of just being, no separation, how do I feel about that? I feel as other's have felt, I disappear, no control, of which I know I do not have any anyway, but I feel insecure if thoughts are truly just like sound, nothing is up to me!

[Alexw]

Yes, well done. The number just shows up, the rest is story :-)

thoughts I see different than sound or even feelings? there's separation. If it is old knowledge how does one change that?

The same way you changed it once before in your life. Do you think you were born with this knowledge? Or maybe you have acquired this knowledge/belief over time..? (not that there really would have been a "you" to do any of this - its just a figure of speech :-)

Changing a belief or dropping it simply happens when its clearly seen that it is just a belief and not actual truth. This might happen in a flash or over time. Either way, once it is seen clearly it will disintegrate.

Is separation more than a thought? Can you find it anywhere in this experience or only in thought about it?
What would no separation mean for this "you"? What for "others"? What would it mean for this experience?

I feel as other's have felt, I disappear, no control, of which I know I do not have any anyway, but I feel insecure if thoughts are truly just like sound, nothing is up to me!

Yes, nothing is up to this "you". It is just a rogue thought and one of its defence mechanism is to install doubt and fear... "Have I really seen it?" or "No, this can't be true, better continue as before!" etc etc... but be persistent and continue to question, continue to look - look at the idea of insecurity: Who would it be that is insecure? You? Or is this just another train of thought that talks about a "you" that has certain issues or problems? Can a thought be insecure?

[jacksonrj05]

Alex thank you, there are a few good questions for myself to look deeply at that will be a crossroad point.
Not that I think it will be but because once I read it, the moment froze, and a "there it is", the moment of truth is here, can I go open that door?

The question of "Is separation more than a thought?", "What would it be that is insecure?" You, or is it another train
of thought that talks about a "you" that has certain issues or problems? and finally can a thought be insecure?

These need to be looked at very deeply. Let me take a day. This is good.

[Alexw]

Sure, take your time.

By the way. Have a look at this post - it explains how to use the quote function:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

[jacksonrj05]

"[/quote]What would it be that is insecure?" You, or is it another train
of thought that talks about a "you" that has certain issues or problems? and finally can a thought be insecure?.[/quote]

I would say it's me but it is only more thoughts. And I never heard a thought that is insecure. So it is all false, a fantasy or story. So If one cannot control the story, what do you do with it? Just let it be there?

How can one let it be? Do you make it your friend?

Question on choices - if one does not control choices and a choice is a thought, that choice/thought comes from past events, knowledge, conditioning, memories and because it appears there was a decision weighting the options that are best, after which you choose? Or is it something I am missing?

Or will the falling of YOU resolve all doubt about the truth? Yes it appears I am trying to think my way through.

[Alexw]

I would say it's me but it is only more thoughts. And I never heard a thought that is insecure. So it is all false, a fantasy or story. So If one cannot control the story, what do you do with it? Just let it be there?

Yes, just more thoughts. Well seen.
If there is no separate entity in control... What are "your" options if there is no separate "you" that is in control in the first place?

Lets assume "I" is just a thought... Now there is a decision to be made. A thought comes up stating A or B... what should it be? More thought flows A,A,B,A,No B, maybe A... Yes I choose A! So where have "you" been in this chain of thought? Did the "I" in the thought "Yes I choose A!" make a decision? Can it make a decision at all?

Now look further. Are there any decisions at all? Have any decisions ever been made since human kind walked the earth? If so, who made them?
Maybe a decision is just a thought that is later labelled a "decision"? Maybe it is really nothing else but another thought?

If there is no thought about a certain action being performed (or not) was there a decision taking place to perform this action (or not)? When you jump on the breaks of your car, did you decide to put the foot down or did it simply happen? Was there a decision made for/against breaking?

will the falling of YOU resolve all doubt about the truth

First find out if there is a "you" at all. Then how you can get rid of it (if you still have to).
So.. what is this "you"? It is no separate entity that can be found, is it? If it is only a belief, how do you get rid of it?

[jacksonrj05]

I see that all decisions just happen and thought comes later to announce it. I see if there is no me, there's nothing to get rid of. And beliefs are not true. So it comes down to is seeing that believing there is a me is not real. Period. Every time I look there is no me to point to, to say there I am. So if all is just happening on its own, and this me is made of thoughts that occur to give a story, then there's nothing. Not to sure I like that there's nothing, it's all empty no pilot flying the plane. Who flys the plane?