Seeking an end to seeking

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CherylMaree
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Seeking an end to seeking

Postby CherylMaree » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:57 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
After years of 'seeking' I accidentally discovered Gateless Gatecrashers recently on Amazon. This led me to your website and the chance to (hopefully) come to some realisation of clarity.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
For some time I have wished there was someone I could talk to about this stuff. Someone who is not speaking from a hypothetical point of view. From my observations and from reading Gateless Gatecrashers it appears that sometimes a few well-chosen words at a particular moment can make all the difference. I am hoping for those words.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have been meditating on and off for about 10 years. About 5 years ago I heard an interview with Jan Frazier. Up until then I hadn't heard of Awakening, Enlightenment, Advaita, Nonduality, whatever you want to call it. Since then I've attempted to educate myself to the point of obsession. I attend a Buddhist centre sporadically. I go to an 'Adyashanti' discussion group and others related to spirituality from an intuitive point of view. I read books and watch DVDs. Some of my favourites (in no particular order) are Adyashanti, Mooji, Fred Davis, Tara Brach, Teal Swan, Matt Kahn. I like to watch Conscious TV and Buddha at the Gas Pump. I subscribe to Sounds True. I could go on but you probably get the picture.

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Ilona
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby Ilona » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:29 pm

Hi CherylMaree.

welcome to LU forum. I am here to assist you.
since this is your process, please write purely from experience, from what feels true to you. please stay away from watching more videos or reading more books. this is about you. writing everyday builds momentum, so please feel free to write your observations even if i don't answer right away.

my first questions to you are what do you expect that should happen? what do you imagine, that clarity looks like? what would change? what you do not want to change?
make a list of all expectations that you may have and when you are done, look for a few more, the hidden ones.
be as honest as you can be, that is the only requirement.

sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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CherylMaree
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby CherylMaree » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I’m trying to be honest and to keep to the questions because I really want to get to the bottom of this.

I can tell you that I don’t expect bells and whistles or fireworks. Once upon a time I did, I hoped for the whole ‘enlightenment experience’. But I’ve felt for a while that I’m on a sort of conveyor belt that is leading to something, understanding maybe, felt that things are unfolding, that beliefs are gradually becoming an acceptance. Now that I’ve written that, it seems like something I might have read but I really do feel that way.

What do I expect? I don’t really know. My original reason for getting on this path was to ‘find peace’. To have relief from the turmoil of my thoughts. I kind of get that thoughts are the source of suffering. Or really believing the thoughts I guess.

What do I imagine clarity looks like? Well I almost think I can glimpse it sometimes … it’s like seeing things from a bigger picture, there’s a simplicity to it, and certainly a peacefulness to it. At those times I feel like none of the drama of life matters, it’s still there but life goes on despite it. Then I think I have probably read that somewhere too.

What would change? I keep coming back to ‘peace’. Freedom from anxiety and from feeling responsible for everyone.

What do I not want to change? To be honest, I’m not expecting big changes. Maybe that’s a mistake to have that assumption. But truly there isn't much I really want to hang on to. Relationships with my kids and grandkids. Recently I heard the self described as a ‘point of view’. I would like my point of view to change. Maybe my only fear, if I have one, is if there is no self, if “I” am not orchestrating all this, what’s the point? By that I mean, what is the point of putting effort into my work, my family, if it’s all just life happening anyway?

I have to tell you, I’m going to find it really hard not to watch videos and read books on this stuff now. It’s become such a habit. I won’t know what to do with all the free time, haha!

Kind regards,
Cheryl.

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Ilona
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby Ilona » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:52 pm

Thank you very much for such honest and open answer. made me smile your comment about habitual watching videos and reading. this time you won't need to listen to descriptions of others, you will write what you see. so write a lot!
it helps mind to focus.
What would change? I keep coming back to ‘peace’. Freedom from anxiety and from feeling responsible for everyone.
very nice. and what is in the way of peace? right here, right now as you are writing the answer to this, what is in the way?

also have a look what is behind the 'feeling responsible'? say to yourself, i am responsible. what is the i there? where is it? find out.


sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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CherylMaree
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby CherylMaree » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:30 am

very nice. and what is in the way of peace? right here, right now as you are writing the answer to this, what is in the way?

There is nothing in the way of peace. It's always there when I take the time to look or allow it. There are times (too often) when I am so caught up in the drama of life that I can't switch off to look.

also have a look what is behind the 'feeling responsible'? say to yourself, i am responsible. what is the i there? where is it? find out.

This feeling of being responsible is starting to dissolve. I still feel responsible but starting to see that it's not really true, that it doesn't make any difference if I feel responsible or not. Things happen anyway.

What is the I there? This is the hard bit isn't it? Or not. 'I am responsible' is a thought. By that I mean that it's not a concrete object. It's an abstraction. I know what you mean about looking for the I there. But there is responsibility. When my kids were little I was responsible for their needs. I am a primary school teacher, mostly 6-7 year olds, and I am responsible for their needs, educational, emotional, physical.

I'm trying to answer your question and not bring up all the other stuff but it's all tangled up. I have to unravel it to see the essence of it. "I" is a feeling. When I say to myself, 'I am responsible', there is a heaviness. Almost a despair. It's funny because as I write this I can feel it lifting, like I only had to acknowledge it to start to see through it.

Ok. I can identify that 'responsible' is a thought that 'I' has taken on. Maybe it's not true that 'I am responsible' but there is responsibility. Somehow those kids have to be looked after.

The 'I' there ... Is it a channel for some universal benevolence ... Am 'I' only this ... It doesn't matter about the thoughts (which never stop by the way, little bastards) because everything will be taken care of anyway. Through me, or not.

Oh, I feel like I'm spouting drivel, I will give this some more thought. Sorry for the lack of coherence here.

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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby Ilona » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:03 pm

Thank you very much for answer. you say that i is a feeling.. which feeling? can you locate it now? is that feeling something constant or something that comes and goes?
have a look, is life happening to a feeling or life is happening as a feeling?
what is that perceives the feeling? is there a perceiver?

what do you find?

sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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CherylMaree
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby CherylMaree » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:31 pm

Hi Ilona,

I thought I would get in a quick reply before I go to bed. School tomorrow so I probably won't get another chance to write until tomorrow evening. I have to say how much I appreciate the opportunity to really express these ideas, apart from writing in a journal to which there is no feedback. I feel like this is a real gift which I truly value. Thank you.

In reply, I have realised that ‘I’ is not a feeling. More like a concept. The concept of me. Life is not happening TO me. It’s just happening. 'I' make the choice to be affected, feed the drama, tell the story. 'I' can choose not to make that choice but the choice is there to be made. But who is choosing to make it?

Have you heard Fred Davis talk about the ‘Fred Unit’? His way of referring to the body-mind. It makes sense to me. No self but life living itself through the Fred-unit. My interpretation: The Unit is responsible for all the daily business, like a computer program. It pretty much runs automatically. All the things 'I' think I do, would get done anyway.

Then thoughts come up ... they don't come from 'me' although I can think consciously as well. As in, how am I going to find time to extend the speaker cable by Tuesday? Problem solving. Can't see how that would just happen anyway. There has to be a process to things. Another example: as a teacher I have to plan my lessons. Big picture needs to be up to a year in advance, then working out the details about a term ahead. How does this planning happen without a self? How am 'I' not doing it?

You asked if the feeling of ‘I’ is constant or something that comes and goes. Having redefined ‘feeling’ as ‘concept’, it’s not constant. It’s there when feelings arise, when thoughts are noticed.

There is a perceiver of the concept of me. No, there is perceiving of the concept of me. It’s just that meanwhile the feelings seem so real. There is such a smallness to the thoughts and feelings, compared to the perceiving, which is vast.

I feel like my mind is tying itself up in knots. Thank you again.
Cheryl.

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Ilona
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby Ilona » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:14 pm

You are most welcome. I'm here for you.

You are coming through nicely. Good work. Let's see, is there a Cheryl unit that lives life, or there is a story ABOUT Cheryl, I, a unit, that lives life? Can you see the difference?

Well spotted, that it's a concept. All language is conceptual. Yes, there is more going on than just thoughts, perceiving is vast, rich and vivid. Then story comes and overlays what is happening/happened..

You can try his experiment.
Have a fruit handy, or something that you like to eat.
For first minute imagine you are eating the fruit,, feel the sensations of taste, texture and fragrance. Enjoy the imaginary fruit as much as you can.
For next couple of minute actualy bite the fruit and see the difference, how experience is richer... Experience the fruit with curiosity and dive in sensations.. Feel as much as you can.
Then for another minute describe the taste and smell. In as much detail as possible. Write here. What was experience like.

After you have done this, compare these three experiences - imaginary fruit, real fruit and description. What do you notice?
What category of experience is the experience of I?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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CherylMaree
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby CherylMaree » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:39 pm

Hi Ilona,

"Let's see, is there a Cheryl unit that lives life, or there is a story ABOUT Cheryl, I, a unit, that lives life? Can you see the difference? "

(I haven't figured out how to use the quote thingy yet.)

I think the Cheryl unit is the part without a story, the ‘real’ part. The “I” is the part that creates the stories.

Today has been a busy day. We have our end-of-year concert at school tomorrow night. As the music teacher I have been rehearsing the kids all day. This is usually a really stressful time of the year for me, concerts, reports, end of year stuff. This morning on the way to school I decided to try and look for the “I” in all the activity. It was surprisingly, quite easy to observe the Unit taking care of all the things that needed to be done and decisions etc. I actually got through a lot of the day without thinking much about what I was doing, and then looking back, realised “I” wasn’t involved in much. Still getting used to this idea but also surprisingly, feeling quite relaxed about tomorrow.

This is significant for me because this is one of the stumbling blocks I've had about the idea of no self. I couldn't (and still don't completely) accept or understand how "I" am not the facilitator of my life.

I realised I haven’t had time to try the fruit experiment yet. Will give that a go tomorrow.

Last night I was reading Gateless Gatecrashers (I hope it’s ok to read that book!) and there is a lovely passage that really resonated with me, about red glass and green glass changing the colour of the light, which would make the light coming through Cheryl, Cheryl-coloured.

I think I had just a little insight today: thinking about daydreaming, which is how I often find solutions to problems ... getting 'lost in thought' seems to bring ideas and strategies to mind ... When I find myself doing this, I haven't made a conscious decision to do so but ideas/solutions are coming. I can accept or understand that this is the creative flow, that it serves a purpose but is not directed by 'me'. Does that make sense?

Cheers,
Cheryl.

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Ilona
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby Ilona » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:51 pm

thank you for reply.
I couldn't (and still don't completely) accept or understand how "I" am not the facilitator of my life.
lets see here, what is that owns life and is the owner, the actress, the mover?
are you moving life or life moves as you? you can look around and notice, what is moving everything?
move your arms, what moves them? how do you do that? does a thought move arms or they move, then thought comes? try several times, notice, how it happens.

is it i that facilitates life or life facilitates i?

sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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CherylMaree
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby CherylMaree » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:36 pm

I don't see that anything owns life. There is living, acting, moving. It feels like I am doing the living but really it just happens. So much of today I was really really busy but things were just unfolding. I even said to a colleague, I feel as though I'm in a trance and everything is just getting done. I drove home from school tonight and halfway home thought, I haven't been driving. Not consciously anyway.

I want to say that I'm not living life, there is so much evidence, but can't quite give up control. Yes I see that it doesn't make sense. I'm really tired and my mind isn't thinking clearly (ha!) which is actually making it easier to see that it isn't running the show.

Yes I think I can see that life is living as me. Can't get past the 'me' though. It's doing my head in. I can't even figure out why. Either I exist or I don't. There is no middle ground. So if there was no doubt in my mind, I wouldn't have this dilemma.

So maybe I doesn't facilitate life, but neither does life facilitate I. Life doesn't care about I. It goes on regardless.

My brain is a bit foggy tonight. I might be clearer after I get some sleep. Goodnight!

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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby Ilona » Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:19 pm

Thank you.
I want to say that I'm not living life, there is so much evidence, but can't quite give up control.
Here is a clue. If there never was an I living life, everything was just happening, then what is there to give up? An idea of controler? The driver of life?
What would be lost, if there really is no control?

Good work, keep digging. :)

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Ilona
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby Ilona » Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:19 pm

Thank you.
I want to say that I'm not living life, there is so much evidence, but can't quite give up control.
Here is a clue. If there never was an I living life, everything was just happening, then what is there to give up? An idea of controler? The driver of life?
What would be lost, if there really is no controler?

Good work, keep digging. :)

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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CherylMaree
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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby CherylMaree » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:50 pm

Part of a quote today on Enlightening Quotes app:

"There is no 'self' separate from what's happening, no little broken-off piece of life that is a special 'me' that you own and can direct and control, separate from the whole."

This is starting to make sense to me, more so than trying to think of it in terms of 'I' not living life.

It's like the analogy of the coloured glass. It's all a sense of one-ness, there is a sense of awareness, but not separate awareness, is that right?

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Re: Seeking an end to seeking

Postby Ilona » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:44 pm

how about both- self is not a little broken-off piece of life that is a special 'me' and "i" is not living life.
have a look here, What would be lost, if there really is no controler?

take your time and write what feels true.
much love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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