Nothing left to want

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Danute
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Nothing left to want

Postby Danute » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:30 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?: What brings me to LU is a desperate desire to unhook from the state of contraction I feel myself experiencing most of the time. I wish I could "surrender" to the delight of life, but I find myself holding on to "what I have achieved" so tightly, there is not much left to want or to enjoy.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
I am really hoping that the conversation I can engage in will lead me to "the clear, unambiguous and direct realisation of the absence of a separate self... unmistakable, profound and permanent."

I understand these concepts intellectually. I don't see my blind spots. I want to better see (in order to dissolve) the limiting beliefs that keep me from ultimately "letting go" of my attachment to my identity and its fate, dropping my attachment to specific outcomes that I seem to want to control... (safety from injury to pride, absence of fear-- mainly those two, but probably more, which I can't see right now.)

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
For the past decade, I am a somatic psychotherapist who became such, in order to learn to better anchor myself in body-awareness. My defense mechanism was to control life from my head.
Underneath all kinds of "success" (things are continuing to go really well for me--after stepping out, two years ago, of a difficult and long marriage-- better and better in so many ways) I am still waiting for "something" to happen though. I am not happy, I do not laugh. I simply work, and work, and feel not much delight anywhere. I avoid everything that is not absolutely necessary, and I end up avoiding a lot. I feel myself and my body to be contracted. I am practicing yin yoga, or restorative yoga, to release tension that has no basis in my current affairs.

In a way, inner discomfort is what makes it easier for me to focus on awareness, when I am not busy avoiding them (-both discomfort and awareness!. If I let myself stop and sit for a moment, it seems effortless for my awareness to go 'deep.'

I experienced a sense of considerable depression the other day (I suspect that it was connected to blood-sugar fluctuations) and stopped to consider the source of awareness for those internal sensations of heaviness that came with their own, specific thoughts of discouragement. (i.e., I focused on, "Where is this awareness coming from? Awareness of body, awareness of thoughts arising.) Immediately, I lost the sensation of depression without however losing the sense of physical pressure and heaviness in my body.

What I am saying is that I untied the link between three things that have always seemed as one: depression, plus a certain body sensation, plus some beliefs about myself .... which had reinforced the depression, which in turn had been reinforcing the body sensation of heaviness, which also reconsolidated the negative thoughts. I saw the "positive feedback mechanism" (meaning reinforcing) as a loop that exacerbates all the symptoms in this closed system: a downward spiraling loop.

Sometimes I do this awareness meditation when I am tired and instantly lose the sense of "I am tired." I simply observe the body sensations that have historically accompanied the belief, "tired." I am shocked, but it works! I feel myself fully alert under the thin veil of 'tired.' I can lose the sense of 'tired' completely if I stay focused on the awareness. It's a bit surreal and it's a lot of fun -- when I think to do it, which is more often these days.

I can't wait to stop all of my pointless striving towards nothing but a search for peace!"
(I should do my awareness exercise around THAT!!! But I have no idea how...)

I want this sense of unmistakable, profound and permanent detachment from my sense of separate self. I am overly invested in my fate (or in avoiding my fate.)

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:33 am

Hi Danute,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist in exploring the illusion of the separate self, though I can only point the way. You have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

We will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
Technical support:
- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- PLEASE LEARN to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- The site has a habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere (word document), then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

If you are happy to agree to the above and have me as your guide, we can start the process. Could you please answer the following questions individually using the quote function:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
A couple of extra questions:
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Regards Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby Danute » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:56 am

Thank you for responding to my request Kay!

I'm delighted to have a guide and I appreciate your questions, which I look forward to sinking into and responding in a few hours, when I return from work.

With the deepest appreciation,
Danute

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:54 am

Hi Danute,

I look forward to working with you. I just noticed that the link I gave you to learn how to use the quote function was not working. Here is a link that works! :)

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Regards
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Danute
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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby Danute » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:12 am

I love these questions. I see them as one single question, and it’s a marvelous one which I take to be:

“What do I really believe I want?”

So, one by one:
How will Life change?
 

No idea. It will just unfold as it should, without me trying to control or direct its unfolding.
How will you change?
I will no longer hold back, or bury myself in a “safe” cocoon.
What will be different?
I will not always feel physically stressed and contracted.
A couple of extra questions:

What is missing?
Appreciation for what is. Life is good right now, and I can’t seem to appreciate it without being plagued by negative self-critical thinking.

Trust that most of what I want (an open heart) is already so, and is moving toward fulfillment.

The assurance that I am not sabotaging—through deeply critical self-condemnation--what could be a wonderful, fruitful life.

A belief that it doesn’t matter if I get crushed, it is only temporary and serves a worthy purpose.

A sense of having a safety net beneath me, so that I don’t fall and disappear into the bowels of the earth

A sense that whatever I undertake is truly worth the risks involved- truly worth any risk required.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
I would like to recapture my former unshakable faith in life and in love, which I “seemed” to have had in abundance as a youth and as a young adult.

I would like to live without holding back, without being vigilant to the point of fighting inertia and paralysis.

I want to engage my capacities more fully. I have talents to share but I fear the damage my mistakes can do.

More than anything, I want to drop the tension in my body, which I know is produced by my own fearful and negative thoughts.

Please note Kay, that the above reflects the sounds of my inner voice, the voice against which my whole life has been a defense. I am tired of defending, even though I realize the accusations are untrue. I want to learn how to not listen to these thoughts.

They are so harsh, yet I don’t know how to stop cringing before them.

So, “What do I really believe I want?”

I want to stop reacting to these insane thoughts. They are for the most part simply untrue. I know that, I just don’t know how to be free of this crazy identity that my conditioning created. I have access to some really wonderful qualities but that I can’t use them fully until I stop being plagued by the negatives I notice.

This has been the hardest thing to write (and I cut out 70% of it!) because I am horrified at confessing how this mind operates and what this mind produces. If I focus on the awareness of these thoughts, I can feel momentarily free of their effects. I just haven’t been able to make that a permanent state.

Thank you for reading this and agreeing to work with me!

Warmly,
Danute

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby Danute » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:31 am

Hello again Kay,

I hope that it's okay if I've added back some of which I had cut out. I promise henceforth to be more succinct, but I wanted to reveal a little more about the contents of my busy mind. I trust that you can see through the mire in which an overwhelmed mind like this can drown. I don't want to be "too much" but hope you can see how I am even too much for myself and don't know how to stop permanently. (I can stop for bits at a time and find relief). Please laugh with me ;)

Here is the rest:
How will Life change?
 

Nutshell:

No idea. It will just unfold as it should, without me trying to control or direct its unfolding.

Elaboration:

I don’t know exactly how life will change but it will feel different. I will wake up in the morning with a sense of expectancy and wonder about what is going to show up “for me” to do, learn, surmount, surrender to... etc.

I will no longer always feel threatened by worry about my security. I will not be preoccupied with covering all my bases simply to avoid this persistent sense of imminent failure or impending loss.

I don’t know how my life will change but I will not have the sense of hiding who I am for avoiding injury to my pride. My life orientation will no longer be dominated by the sense of holding down the fort against potential storms.

Rather, I will have trust and a great appetite for the adventure of life, or at the very least, no pervasive avoidance or contraction against fears about my own personal impending doom (or worthlessness.)

How will you change?
Nutshell:

I will no longer hold back, or bury myself in a “safe” cocoon.

Elaboration:

On a moment to moment basis, I will recognize what is mine to do and what is appropriate to decline or ignore. (Or I won’t freeze in paralysis and fear about taking a chance or making a mistake.) I will trust and heed my inner voice and continue developing an attunement for interpreting and following its prompts.

I will make deeper commitments that support love and are supported by love (and I will come to recognize more and more what love really is and does.) I will recognize which commitments are the ones that hold authentic value, rather than merely taking on commitments that are security-oriented, aimed at self-preservation and freedom.

I will espouse causes greater than myself (even causes like the propagation of authentic joy and pleasure) and I will experience excitement (not without occasional trepidation) about how my capacities are potentially tailored to fit the tasks at hand; and how these tasks are tailored to fit my optimal development….

What will be different?
Nutshell:

I will not always feel physically stressed and contracted.

Elaboration:

I will feel myself to be a pliable instrument joyfully played by a more skilled “musician” than myself. I will participate but will not lead, unless instructed to lead… I will initiate only when prompted from within, rather than on some ego whim.

Again, thank you and know that I am deeply embarrassed yet desperate for someone to help me see how to dissolve this inner "crap," in order to just be quiet, once and for all!

Appreciatively,
Danute

PS Call me out on any bullshit. I will take a "slap in the face" (as Elena says) ANYTIME!!!!

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:20 am

Hello Danute,

Thank you for using the quote function. It keeps communication neat and clear. Thank you also for honest openness. This helps greatly with the exploration into seeing through the illusion of a ‘separate individual’ and this is a safe place to do so.

When you read my responses to your answers, I would like you to watch for any resistance/fear that arises and to take note of the resistance/fear, and let me know what the resistance/fear is and how it showed up.
“What do I really believe I want?”
There is nobody and absolutely nothing that believes or can want anything or have anything.
How will Life change?
No idea. It will just unfold as it should, without me trying to control or direct its unfolding.
There is no separate individual that is or can “control or direct its unfolding” and there is no separate individual that is living a life.
How will you change?
I will no longer hold back, or bury myself in a “safe” cocoon.
There is no ‘separate individual’ that can be either safe or unsafe.
What will be different?
I will not always feel physically stressed and contracted.
There is actual experience of sensations but there is no separate individual that is experiencing these sensations, nor is there a separate individual that can “feel” anything. The words/labels “stressed” and “contracted” are actual experience of thought and are not actual experience of “stressed” and “contracted”.
What is missing?
Appreciation for what is. Life is good right now, and I can’t seem to appreciate it without being plagued by negative self-critical thinking.
This is all story. There is nothing/no-one that is having a good life or a bad life or that is “plagued by negative self-critical thinking”. These are all just thoughts and thoughts know nothing.
Trust that most of what I want (an open heart) is already so, and is moving toward fulfillment.


There is no separate entity that can “trust”, “want and open heart” (or has a heart for that matter) or is “moving toward fulfilment”. There is no such thing as ‘time’ or ‘fulfilment’. ‘Fulfilment’ is another word used in the place of ‘enlightenment’ and there is no ‘person’ that is or can ever be ‘enlightened’. Everything already IS – it needs absolutely nothing added, subtracted or changed.
The assurance that I am not sabotaging—through deeply critical self-condemnation--what could be a wonderful, fruitful life.
A belief that it doesn’t matter if I get crushed, it is only temporary and serves a worthy purpose.
A sense of having a safety net beneath me, so that I don’t fall and disappear into the bowels of the earth
A sense that whatever I undertake is truly worth the risks involved- truly worth any risk required.
There is no separate individual that can lose, gain, risk, disappear, self-sabotage, self-condemn be worthy or unworthy of anyone or anything, including God; or who is living a life.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
I would like to live without holding back, without being vigilant to the point of fighting inertia and paralysis. I want to engage my capacities more fully. I have talents to share but I fear the damage my mistakes can do.
There is no one experiencing or “fighting inertia and paralysis” and there is no separate entity that can hold anything back or make anything happen.
More than anything, I want to drop the tension in my body, which I know is produced by my own fearful and negative thoughts.
Thoughts are not authored or owned by anyone/anything and there is no separate individual that has a “body”.
Please note Kay, that the above reflects the sounds of my inner voice, the voice against which my whole life has been a defense. I am tired of defending, even though I realize the accusations are untrue. I want to learn how to not listen to these thoughts.
There is no separate individual that is ‘thinking’ or ‘listening’ to (these thoughts) their “inner voice”. Thoughts come and go and are not happening to anyone/anything.
So, “What do I really believe I want?”

I want to stop reacting to these insane thoughts. They are for the most part simply untrue. I know that, I just don’t know how to be free of this crazy identity that my conditioning created. I have access to some really wonderful qualities but that I can’t use them fully until I stop being plagued by the negatives I notice.
There are no better thoughts or worse thoughts - no negative thoughts or more positive thoughts, no evil thoughts or holy thoughts. Thoughts are not aware of anyone or anything and are absolutely meaningless. Thoughts are actual experience of thought, but what the thoughts are about, are pure fiction.
This has been the hardest thing to write (and I cut out 70% of it!) because I am horrified at confessing how this mind operates and what this mind produces. If I focus on the awareness of these thoughts, I can feel momentarily free of their effects. I just haven’t been able to make that a permanent state.
There is no one here to condemn you or judge you or who thinks your thoughts are worse than another’s. There are no ‘others’. There is no such thing as a mind and there is no ‘your mind’ and ‘my mind’. Seeing through the separate self is a recognition and is not an altered state of mind. There is no separate entity that has a “mind”.
Again, thank you and know that I am deeply embarrassed yet desperate for someone to help me see how to dissolve this inner "crap," in order to just be quiet, once and for all!
You are welcome! :) There is no need to feel embarrassed in any way. ‘We’ have all been down this road!

BUT the label “embarrassed” is the actual experience of thought and is not ‘felt’ by anyone or anything.
PS Call me out on any bullshit. I will take a "slap in the face" (as Elena says) ANYTIME!!!!
There will be times when I will be quite confronting…and it’s not personal. Firstly, I am here to guide you and to do that I need you to focus and to ‘look’ with actual experience (AE) at all questions given. I use the term Actual Experience (AE) which is the same as direct experience (DE). If you aren’t ‘looking’ with AE then I will confront you about it.

Secondly….there are no ‘persons’ who are personal or to take anything ‘personally’!


Regards
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby Danute » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:27 pm

Wow Kay,

This is great. I am reading and re-reading your reply (late last night and again this morning.) I struggle to articulate my Actual Experience in response to reading your statements. The Actual Experience seems still ongoing, as of yet, not quite settled.

I have no sense of fear, just a sense of "yes, yes - I want that awareness, yet so far it seems more like a wonderful dream than reality (in my thoughts anyway)

The following really stands out:
There is actual experience of sensations but there is no separate individual that is experiencing these sensations, nor is there a separate individual that can “feel” anything. The words/labels “stressed” and “contracted” are actual experience of thought and are not actual experience of “stressed” and “contracted”.
"actual experience of thought"

This is something I will pay attention to throughout my day today.

I must go to work, and will respond more fully in 12 hours. (What if I don't go to work and just spend the whole day re-reading and being aware of the direct experience of the thoughts that occur to me when I read your statements? Who makes such decisions, and how are they made? This body would not choose to experience the tension from missing work... so "it" decides based on that? I want to dwell in the awareness of how this all truly works.)

There is so much to thank you for! I so appreciate your words. It feels like I am being immersed in a bath of soothing truth, a deeper level of reality that I hunger for. I really want this simplicity and clarity of direct awareness, rather than feeling muddled in the experience of thought.

Thank you Kay,
-thank you well beyond what I can presently convey <3

Danute

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby Danute » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:47 pm

The more I read your statements and look at my AE, the more I sense that a spell is breaking, as though an old program is slowly beginning to come apart at the seams. Reading and re-reading and noting my AE is causing things to shift in my perception. I will report again (in 12 hours or so). Very excited but trying to remain calm and in awareness of this AE.

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:19 pm

Hi Danute,

I look forward to your responses.

Actual experience (AE) is available ALL the time. Actual experience (AE) is sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and images – anything more than that is story.

Kay
xxoo
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby Danute » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:42 am

Hello Kay,

Oops, I cannot make good on my promise to be succinct. I want to be thorough and consider everything you write, so I apologize if this is a bit long, even though I am responding only to a thought of how the length might be an unwelcome bother or burden...

So here is a description of my actual experience in response to your statements.
There is nobody and absolutely nothing that believes or can want anything or have anything. 
Awareness ponders:

Nothing believes
Nothing can want
Nothing can have

Watching for fear or resistance. Can’t find any.
The thought, “I want to be nothing” arises, with a sense of freedom and delight. I recognize there would be no I to want or to be anything, including to "want to be" nothing.
There is no separate individual that is or can “control or direct its unfolding” and there is no separate individual that is living a life.
The notion that “no separate individual” can control or direct gives rise to the thought,
“Okay, then what controls, directs, or lives a life?”

Still no fear or resistance. Just a desire, “What will it take for me to feel the truth of that?”
There is no ‘separate individual’ that can be either safe or unsafe.
A little skepticism but then I recall instances when I was aware of feeling unsafe and at the same time not in the least alone, but rather surrounded by other awarenesses joining together with me in the experience… without trying to change it. So the truth of this statement seems more than plausible.
There is actual experience of sensations but there is no separate individual that is experiencing these sensations, nor is there a separate individual that can “feel” anything. The words/labels “stressed” and “contracted” are actual experience of thought and are not actual experience of “stressed” and “contracted”.
Here is where a great opening was felt, and a clarity about simply letting go of the words/labels and beliefs about the sensations that evoked those labels. Nothing needs to be done about the sensations at all.
This is all story. There is nothing/no-one that is having a good life or a bad life or that is “plagued by negative self-critical thinking”. These are all just thoughts and thoughts know nothing.
The thought arises, “Thoughts take on a life of their own.” They are funny impostors who take themselves for real. How hilarious!
No awareness of fear, resistance, or emotion, just a lightness, and sense of detachment accompanies that thought.
There is no separate entity that can “trust”, “want an open heart” (or has a heart for that matter) or is “moving toward fulfilment”. There is no such thing as ‘time’ or ‘fulfilment’. ‘Fulfilment’ is another word used in the place of ‘enlightenment’ and there is no ‘person’ that is or can ever be ‘enlightened’.
Okay, the above are just concepts masquerading as reality however…
Everything already IS – it needs absolutely nothing added, subtracted or changed.
Nothing is needed from the point of view of awareness, but the illusion is still relevant and things within the illusion could use some change…

…or not. Now I am beginning to see that it doesn’t really matter. What matters is awareness of reality, not outcomes. What matters (what is real) is communion (love) and a sharing of awareness… and even possibly the sharing of an occasional loss of awareness (holding that space together, in faith) when the illusion seems real…

It all makes perfect sense, and I have been noticing the body relax more. I have been noticing glee arise from awareness that all is as it is, and nothing at all needs to change.

Yet, I am still attached to this state of pleasurable awareness. Even in my appreciation of the awareness of discomfort, I feel less resistance, nearly enjoyment... but it’s an enjoyment of the illusion of self-mastery, through indifference and detachment.

I’m not quite there yet, in that permanent immovable certainty of not existing as a separate self. Nearly but not fully there.
There is no separate individual that can lose, gain, risk, disappear, self-sabotage, self-condemn be worthy or unworthy of anyone or anything, including God; or who is living a life.
I see that’s all story. Thoughts taking on a life of their own, or pretending to own a life and exert a volition of their own…
There is no one experiencing or “fighting inertia and paralysis” and there is no separate entity that can hold anything back or make anything happen.
Okay, but here I stumble:
There is no one experiencing
Can it be said that awareness is aware of sensations that are labeled (by thoughts) as “me experiencing?”
Would that be a description of actual experience? (AE)
There is no one “fighting inertia and paralysis”
Can it be said that “thoughts about fighting inertia and paralysis” are engendering a physical reaction of which awareness is aware? (I am asking if I understand this correctly, making a concession to the notion of "I" only in order to communicate more clearly.)
Thoughts are not authored or owned by anyone/anything and there is no separate individual that has a “body”.
This seems true, yet not as permanent awareness, but rather as fleeting realization that dims next to the impact of sudden physical shock (when sudden acute physical stimulus occurs, yes, possibly only as a response to thoughts that are believed...)
There is no separate individual that is ‘thinking’ or ‘listening’ to (these thoughts) their “inner voice”. Thoughts come and go and are not happening to anyone/anything.
 

If I could keep my awareness focused on this fact, no matter what was going on “in the illusion of thoughts that seem to impersonate a “me,” then I imagine the awareness of a permanent state of clear, unambiguous and direct realization of the absence of a separate self... would remain unmistakable, profound and permanent.
There are no better thoughts or worse thoughts - no negative thoughts or more positive thoughts, no evil thoughts or holy thoughts. Thoughts are not aware of anyone or anything and are absolutely meaningless.
All good here. Thoughts are just as automatic as chemical reactions, when certain combinations of circumstances have arisen. (Right?)
Thoughts are actual experience of thought,


Not sure what that means. Does it mean awareness of thoughts as experience?
but what the thoughts are about, are pure fiction.
Yes, I see that.
There is no one here to condemn you or judge you or who thinks your thoughts are worse than another’s. There are no ‘others’. There is no such thing as a mind and there is no ‘your mind’ and ‘my mind’.


There are just thoughts running wild, impersonating a landscape of experiences for awareness to behold?
Seeing through the separate self is a recognition and is not an altered state of mind.


I can see through the separate self as a great hypothesis, and even as an occasionally experienced reality, but this awareness is still dim and impermanent in the awareness that I am aware of.
There is no separate entity that has a “mind”.
Ok. I can feel how the mind (or awareness) is non-local.
You are welcome! :) There is no need to feel embarrassed in any way. ‘We’ have all been down this road!
That is reassuring. Thank you!

I feel incredibly honored to have a willing guide for this. It feels such a privilege to aspire to detaching from a sense of self.

I am no longer generating thoughts that would embarrass me. Strange how that happens by itself, through awareness of this silly illusion…
BUT the label “embarrassed” is the actual experience of thought and is not ‘felt’ by anyone or anything.
experience of thought
Yes

But I stumble at:
is not ‘felt’ by anyone or anything.
So is awareness aware of this "sensation of embarrassment" simply = awareness of experience of thought, awareness of "a thought that creates embarrassment" whilst remaining disbelieved, detached, aware as being simply an illusion?
There will be times when I will be quite confronting…and it’s not personal.
I appreciate both the willingness to confront, and the fact that it wouldn't be personal.
Firstly, I am here to guide you and to do that I need you to focus and to ‘look’ with actual experience (AE) at all questions given.
I am not sure I am doing that quite sufficiently. This is" my best" so far... ;) But I remain "coachable."
I use the term Actual Experience (AE) which is the same as direct experience (DE). If you aren’t ‘looking’ with AE then I will confront you about it.
So, how am I doing so far, with AE? I can’t tell, because I am using so much deductive logic and am not sure how much of it is Direct Experience… I could say with accuracy that all of my logical statements have been experienced directly at times.
Secondly….there are no ‘persons’ who are personal or to take anything ‘personally’!
Okay, I am getting the hang of it, I think ;)

I believe that focusing on this is helping me become a little more detached from the illusions my thinking and conditioning have harbored.

Yet, you can see I am still in the habit of falling back into “I-statements.”
Is it just a habit to be broken by a more clear awareness?

As ever appreciative of your help,

<3
Danute

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:09 am

Dear Danute,
There is no ‘separate individual’ that can be either safe or unsafe.
A little skepticism but then I recall instances when I was aware of feeling unsafe and at the same time not in the least alone, but rather surrounded by other awarenesses joining together with me in the experience… without trying to change it. So the truth of this statement seems more than plausible.
The concept of ‘awareness’ is subject/object split. Someone or something being aware of someone or something. There are no two of anything …EVER. There is not even ONE!

Exploring and seeing through the concept of a ‘separate individual’ is not about what is plausible, believable or ‘truth’. It is simply checking with actual experience to see what IS (real).
There is actual experience of sensations but there is no separate individual that is experiencing these sensations, nor is there a separate individual that can “feel” anything. The words/labels “stressed” and “contracted” are actual experience of thought and are not actual experience of “stressed” and “contracted”.
Here is where a great opening was felt, and a clarity about simply letting go of the words/labels and beliefs about the sensations that evoked those labels. Nothing needs to be done about the sensations at all.
Who/what is there to do anything about anything let alone sensations! But yes, sensations are just sensations and nothing needs to be done about them at all.
There is no separate entity that can “trust”, “want an open heart” (or has a heart for that matter) or is “moving toward fulfilment”. There is no such thing as ‘time’ or ‘fulfilment’. ‘Fulfilment’ is another word used in the place of ‘enlightenment’ and there is no ‘person’ that is or can ever be ‘enlightened’.
Okay, the above are just concepts masquerading as reality however…
There are no “howevers”. No matter what thought says, there is no ‘separate entity’, so how can “trust”, “want an open heart” or “moving toward fulfilment” have any validity at all?
Everything already IS – it needs absolutely nothing added, subtracted or changed.
Nothing is needed from the point of view of awareness, but the illusion is still relevant and things within the illusion could use some change…
You can’t be sometimes or partially pregnant, you are either pregnant or you aren’t. There can’t be no illusions and yet still have “relevant illusions”. This is what keeps seeking, struggle, confusion and suffering in place.

What is the actual experience of awareness? I don’t want an intellectual or plausible answer. Check with AE - sound, image, sensation, taste, smell and thought.

Can the label/thought ‘awareness’ know anything about awareness?
Can a sound know anything about awareness?
Can a taste know anything about awareness?
Can a smell know anything about awareness?
Can an image know anything about awareness?
Can a sensation know anything about awareness?
…or not. Now I am beginning to see that it doesn’t really matter. What matters is awareness of reality, not outcomes. What matters (what is real) is communion (love) and a sharing of awareness… and even possibly the sharing of an occasional loss of awareness (holding that space together, in faith) when the illusion seems real…
There is no “communion” or “love or “sharing of awareness” in actual experience. These are all lovely spiritual concepts but are also under the umbrella of illusion.
I’m not quite there yet, in that permanent immovable certainty of not existing as a separate self. Nearly but not fully there.
There is no separate individual who is thinking or can control thinking. So whatever thoughts appear….appear. So if the thought appears “I forgot that I am not a separate self and I believed once again that I am Danute”, then that thought is just appearing, BUT there is no separate individual who that is referring to or to whom it is happening. It is just a thought that is appearing as experience.
There is no one experiencing or “fighting inertia and paralysis” and there is no separate entity that can hold anything back or make anything happen.
Okay, but here I stumble:
There is no one experiencing
Can it be said that awareness is aware of sensations that are labeled (by thoughts) as “me experiencing?”
Would that be a description of actual experience? (AE
)

There is no one “fighting inertia and paralysis”

Actual experience is sensation, sound, taste, smell, thoughts and images. THAT’S IT. Anything else is pure story….pure fiction.

There is no “me experiencing”! That still refers to a separate individual that is experiencing something! There is NO SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL. There is no such thing as “awareness” or “experiencing”. For something to be ‘experienced’ or ‘experiencing’ that means that there is two. 1) Whatever is being ‘experienced’ and (2) the ‘experiencer’. There are never two…EVER. ‘Experienced’ and ‘experiencing’ also imply time and time is an illusion.
Can it be said that “thoughts about fighting inertia and paralysis” are engendering a physical reaction of which awareness is aware? (I am asking if I understand this correctly, making a concession to the notion of "I" only in order to communicate more clearly.)
No. That is the belief in cause, and effect and cause and effect are a part of the illusion of time.
The AE of “inertia and paralysis” is thought + sensation and thought marries them and says the thought caused the sensation.

“Thoughts about fighting inertia and paralysis” is AE of thought and not AE fighting inertia and paralysis.
The sensation labelled “inertia and paralysis” are AE of sensation and not AE inertia and paralysis

Can you see this?
Thoughts are not authored or owned by anyone/anything and there is no separate individual that has a “body”.
This seems true, yet not as permanent awareness, but rather as fleeting realization that dims next to the impact of sudden physical shock (when sudden acute physical stimulus occurs, yes, possibly only as a response to thoughts that are believed...)
Once again….investigating the belief into the separate self is not about finding if a thought/belief is true or false. Don’t believe what I am telling you….you find out for yourself by checking everything with actual experience (AE)
There is no separate individual that is ‘thinking’ or ‘listening’ to (these thoughts) their “inner voice”. Thoughts come and go and are not happening to anyone/anything.
If I could keep my awareness focused on this fact, no matter what was going on “in the illusion of thoughts that seem to impersonate a “me,” then I imagine the awareness of a permanent state of clear, unambiguous and direct realization of the absence of a separate self... would remain unmistakable, profound and permanent.
Seeing through the separate self is a recognition and is not an altered state of mind or an altered state of anything. There is no separate individual that has or will ever have “the awareness of a permanent state of clear, unambiguous and direct realization of the absence of a separate self... would remain unmistakable, profound and permanent”.
All good here. Thoughts are just as automatic as chemical reactions, when certain combinations of circumstances have arisen. (Right?)
We will do exercises around thoughts so you can see for yourself and get your own answer.
Thoughts are actual experience of thought, Not sure what that means. Does it mean awareness of thoughts as experience?
Yes. Thoughts that are being ‘awared’ of is actual experience.
There is no one here to condemn you or judge you or who thinks your thoughts are worse than another’s. There are no ‘others’. There is no such thing as a mind and there is no ‘your mind’ and ‘my mind’.
There are just thoughts running wild, impersonating a landscape of experiences for awareness to behold?
There is no “awareness to behold”. There is just experience….just THIS as it is.
Seeing through the separate self is a recognition and is not an altered state of mind.
I can see through the separate self as a great hypothesis, and even as an occasionally experienced reality, but this awareness is still dim and impermanent in the awareness that I am aware of.
There is no “I” who is aware of anything! This may or may not become clearer as we go through exploring the concept of the separate individual. But eventually it will become clear.
I am no longer generating thoughts that would embarrass me. Strange how that happens by itself, through awareness of this silly illusion…
BUT the label “embarrassed” is the actual experience of thought and is not ‘felt’ by anyone or anything.
experience of thought
Yes
But I stumble at:
is not ‘felt’ by anyone or anything.
Because you believe you are the body; that you reside in a body and that you live in time. But we will look at those concepts later. We look at thoughts first.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Danute
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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby Danute » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:33 pm

Thank you Kay,

Okay, I hear what you say about the subject/object split; about the non-existence of cause/effect, but then when you say, “there is not even one” there is little awareness of any reference for that. I am aware of a desire (sensation) to be aware of the experience (not the thought) “I don’t exist.”

Am I correctly understanding that there is just awareness? Awareness of sound, image, sensation, taste, smell and thought is the only thing that exists? There is “not even one.” “one is a concept” There is no such thing as “a one.” There is only awareness of thoughts, and one of those thoughts is that “something called ‘belief’ is real?”
Check with AE - sound, image, sensation, taste, smell and thought.

What is the actual experience of awareness? I don’t want an intellectual or plausible answer. Check with AE - sound, image, sensation, taste, smell and thought.

Can the label/thought ‘awareness’ know anything about awareness?
Can a sound know anything about awareness?
Can a taste know anything about awareness?
Can a smell know anything about awareness?
Can an image know anything about awareness?
Can a sensation know anything about awareness?
Okay, no. I see that. The actual experience of awareness is only sensation, and thought is just another complex sensation of a conceptualized experience, a fiction, something that doesn’t really exist.

Do I correctly understand thought? Plausibility is just a nonsense story (a concept, something that doesn’t exist other than an agreement a “faith,” a belief) about thoughts checking other thoughts, when thoughts don’t know anything. Awareness doesn’t make up stories or believe in them. Awareness is just awareness of experience, including the awareness of the illusion (sensation) of concepts.

Gratitude!!!
<3
Danute

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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby Danute » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:49 pm

Kay may I try again with the only thing I don't seem to be aware of?
There is no ‘separate individual’ that can be either safe or unsafe.
When I read this, awareness of "thoughts about sensations of fear" and of "fearful thoughts about the awareness of pain" arises. This awareness dissipates quickly when these thoughts are not sustained. They seem laughable in this light.

Gratitude,
Danute

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forgetmenot
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Re: Nothing left to want

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:22 pm

Hi Danute,
Okay, I hear what you say about the subject/object split; about the non-existence of cause/effect, but then when you say, “there is not even one” there is little awareness of any reference for that. I am aware of a desire (sensation) to be aware of the experience (not the thought) “I don’t exist.”
There is nothing that can be aware of experience…because that makes two. There is only experience aware of itself.
Am I correctly understanding that there is just awareness? Awareness of sound, image, sensation, taste, smell and thought is the only thing that exists? There is “not even one.” “one is a concept” There is no such thing as “a one.” There is only awareness of thoughts, and one of those thoughts is that “something called ‘belief’ is real?”
Using the word ‘awareness’ can cause confusion because it points to something that is aware of something else. The word ‘experience’ points to THIS (all there is) - AS experience itself.

There is only experience AS (not of) sound, image, sensation, taste, smell and thought.

There is experience of thought and the thought “something called ‘belief’ is real” is actual experience of thought and not of belief.

The label ‘belief’ is AE of thought and not the AE of belief (believing in something/someone)

Is this clear?
Check with AE - sound, image, sensation, taste, smell and thought.

What is the actual experience of awareness? I don’t want an intellectual or plausible answer. Check with AE - sound, image, sensation, taste, smell and thought.

Can the label/thought ‘awareness’ know anything about awareness?
Can a sound know anything about awareness?
Can a taste know anything about awareness?
Can a smell know anything about awareness?
Can an image know anything about awareness?
Can a sensation know anything about awareness?
Okay, no. I see that. The actual experience of awareness is only sensation, and thought is just another complex sensation of a conceptualized experience, a fiction, something that doesn’t really exist.
No. Thought is actual experience..but what the thought is about is fiction. Let’s use the word ‘aware’ in this case so you can see what I mean. You are aware of thoughts, smell, taste, sound, images and sensations therefore they are actual experience and that is all there is.

So let’s say you pick up a piece of ice. Thought says that it is ice because you got it out of the freezer and it feels cold in your hand and you are going to use it to cool down your drink.

That entire story is made up of thoughts which you are aware of…so the thoughts are actual experience…but the story is fiction.

The ice is AE of image + thought but is not the AE of ice
The hand is AE of image + thought + sensation but is not AE of a hand
Do I correctly understand thought? Plausibility is just a nonsense story (a concept, something that doesn’t exist other than an agreement a “faith,” a belief) about thoughts checking other thoughts, when thoughts don’t know anything. Awareness doesn’t make up stories or believe in them. Awareness is just awareness of experience, including the awareness of the illusion (sensation) of concepts.
Not “awareness OF experience” BUT awareness AS experience – there is a distinction there.

I don’t understand what you mean when you say “including the awareness of the illusion (sensation) of concepts.
There is no ‘separate individual’ that can be either safe or unsafe.
When I read this, awareness of "thoughts about sensations of fear" and of "fearful thoughts about the awareness of pain" arises. This awareness dissipates quickly when these thoughts are not sustained. They seem laughable in this light.
The sensation labelled “fear” is the AE of sensations and not the AE of fear
Can a sensation know anything about fear?

The label “fear” is the AE of thought and not the AE of fear.


Okay….I want to introduce an exercise now. We can go on discussing this forever…and this is not what this process is about. It’s about you LOOKING with AE to see through beliefs to get to the recognition of seeing that there is no such thing as a separate individual aka “person”.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts:

(1) Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

(2) This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

(3) Then wait for the next thought to come.

(4) When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

(5) Then wait for the next thought to come.

(6) Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking at how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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