Still 5 issues to be answered

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paulo8
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Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby paulo8 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:14 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I’ve read Jed’s Trilogy and Gateless Gatecrashers. Still, got 5 issues that lead me to request a guide.
This is perfect:
Life is happening not to us, but as us.

Sure enough, in this reality, self is only a label, a caller, a name, placeholder that identifies one specific frequency refering to this unique viewpoint of Life. Not separated, only a specific frequency.
Life IS, and expresses itself though many frequencies, one of them, this unique frenquency labelled ME, or this other labelled YOU. Both just frequency phenomena of Life. Exactly as “university” label.

SELF is not present in the beggining, later, becomes present somehow. it must be the way Life wants to express and be perceived, otherwise, would not emerge. As it does, it serves some function, not for us, phenomena, obviously - but for Life itself. Phenomena may have no clue about what function is this, nevertheless, specific phenomena corresponds to a very narrow and incomplete view of Life.

All very clear. Nevertheless… as I still have “issues” with other statements in Gateless Gatecrashers, I found reasonable to reach out and see if you would work with me, so I can clarify these points, and see if there are some things escaping perception here.
The specific issues are:

- You say no free will. How come? This is not the same as no-self. Phenomena walk to the door; come back, sit again, then go again and get out the door. All of this of pure volition. With some objective in mind - or even just for the fun of it. These are possibilities for this unique phenomena that life express itself as. Life expresses itself as phenomena, also through free will phenomena. Since there is no-self, are you denying free will to what? Life? Of course Life has all freewill in the universe to express….

- The same applies to denying cause and effect. THere is no cause and effect produced by Self, since Self is NOT. There IS cause and effect produced by LIFE, for life IS. And Life IS happenning as cause and effect, also. No matter that thoughts have no chance to proccess the complexity of Life expressed as cause-and-effect, Life obviously happen also AS cause-and-effect.

- Where do thoughts come from? From Life, happening as us. Thoughts can’t come from nothing. Something CAN’T come from nothing. All comes from somewhere / something, thats absolute. Life is absolute. To refer Jed = C-Rex. Conscience (Life) is All.

- All seems ok, but yet very limited, since you restrain investigation to THIS reality. The paradox: you can’t materially prove an immaterial existence. This refer only to material existence. Spirit is NOT material, hence, is NOT here. Never was, never will be. Thats obvious.

- Yet spirit might have existence, (unless you can absolutely prove otherwise, but that does not seem very feasible, since you are restricted phenomena of life). As in the “broadcast” thesis, i.e.: we might operate as “receivers”, just like TV sets. And the “search for the self” is obviously useless, for one would never find the broadcaster inside the TV set; it is not there, and never was. In this case, broadcaster equals label, also, just like University. The question, then, follows: are you implying no-spirit? Or are you just leaving the field blank?

Please pardon any english language mistakes for this is not my first idiom.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
To check if a guide can help me clarify the 5 points stated above.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
30 plus years of studies; circa 5 years of meditation (buddhist/tibetan/mahayana/vajrayana), read Jed McKeena's trilogy from last year to last month. Read Gateless Gatecrashers this month.

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Canfora
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby Canfora » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:59 am

Hi Paulo, welcome to the LU forum!

With a name like Paulo is your first language Portuguese? If it is, we can speak in Portuguese. Or not. What works best to you.

It seems you are expecting that a guide will help you clarify your 5 points? This is not a forum were a "normal" conversation, a sharing of view points takes place. LU guides just point the way and, if your goal is to be guided - I'm not sure if it is - your role is to look to your immediate experience to find your own answers. A guide will not place more fuel in your beliefs.

The main focus in this forum is seeing that the separate self is an illusion - we don't go further than that here, although LU has some groups were further investigation and these kind of conversations takes place.

So, do you want to talk with a guide about the illusion of a separate self - even knowing that we aren't going to answer your (very interesting!) questions in this forum? I have the impression that you already can see that the self is an illusion? What did you do to make sure that is the case?

Sandra

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paulo8
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby paulo8 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:22 pm

Dear Sandra

Gratitude for your response and kind words.

I do prefer to keep the dialogue in english, for I believe it may become useful for more people, and eventually include more people if used in other/open threads. My native language is portuguese, and I live in Brazil.

I understand that a guide may not engage in the debate of my 5 points. I would be interested in being part of such groups where this discussions take place, but, before that; I think it would be useful for me to be guided about the illusion of self. I have my opinion about being able to see that self is illusion, but I would appreciate to go thru the “formal” process of direct pointing and have a guide’s viewpoint, before engaging in other threads.

Is this ok for you? how could we begin?

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Canfora
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby Canfora » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:20 pm

Hello again! I'm Portuguese but I'm very used to guide in English, so let's use English :)
I would appreciate to go thru the “formal” process of direct pointing and have a guide’s viewpoint, before engaging in other threads. Is this ok for you?
Yes, it's ok and I can be your guide. Below are my first questions to you:
I have my opinion about being able to see that self is illusion
When you say "I", what are you talking about, what is this I?

You have read Gateless Gatecrashers. Did you try some of the exercises? Do you understand what we mean by "looking"? If you tried "looking" how did it go?

Looking forward to our talk!


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paulo8
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby paulo8 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:18 am

Hi Sandra,

"I" here is a function of language. Is not necessary not to use the word. But it's all there is to it. Word, label. I did most exercises in GG. I did looking, and I is nowhere to be found in this reality. There is no I here. My will to follow the process of being guided is to have "my opinion", or my experience "tested" in a formal setting, so to say.

Gratitude.

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Canfora
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby Canfora » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:06 pm

Since you can already see that the I is an illusion, I suggest that you answer LU 6 standard questions.
These questions are a way to make sure that everything is clear.
You can answer one a day, two or more, or all them in the same post.
If that is ok with you, here they are:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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paulo8
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby paulo8 » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:13 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate existence, no self at all to be found here in this reality.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self emerges as part of this experience in this reality, in the formative years as a child. It is part and parcel of this experience, the way Life designed to be. Entrapped by the illusion of duality, we can strive for non-duality; just as entrapped by shadows, we begin to see the value of light. Contrast may be the idea, the path on this reality. Experience suffering leads to understand and value joy. Experience the suffering of “duality” leads to reveal non-duality; oneness.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

No big difference now in the feeling. Only more clear on the issues of the first 3 questions. The difference arose and was clear by the time I was reading Jed McKenna’s books; I was stroke then. Nowadays it feels like it’s a more natural experience; as if all change of perspective that begun at that time are slowly and gently “integrating”. Even if sometimes not so gently; even if sometimes it still brings tears.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
While reading the books, I begun with a very strong resistance. I could not concile those views with my life-long spiritual journey. Resistance was derrailed by the “cows in the movie” part of Jed’s book, it’s such a powerfull explanation. Upon reading Gateless Gatecrashers I got that feeling again, but as kind of reminiscence, as of showing to me something already known, very familiar. And that lead me to ask for the direct pointing guide.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

All these are at Life’s lap. Life flows, and flows as us. What makes things happen? Life does. Free will is at large part of megalomania of separate self. Small time deviations may be possible for us, but of no consequence in the journey. Like a small canoe in a huge river; that may do twists and turns, ultimately it IS inside and flowing with the river. Can’t change the flow. Can be delusioned or distracted by its little side moves or small turns. But is ever flowing, always was and ever will be.

Give examples from experience.

Once I was by a river with some friends; with this dog, an enourmous pit bull, that belonged to a friend, beside me. The dog was trained to do rescue tasks. While it was standing by my side, I felt that it would jump in the water, with me, the moment I took the jump. That could not end up very good, for was a really big dog. I waited and waited, and the dog waited by my side. Somehow I could sense that this is what supposed to happen, but didn’t want it to happen that way. So I waited. Soon the dog was playing with another friend, seemed distracted; and then I jumped in water. By the moment I touched water, I felt a great pain in my forehead, and a great load over my back. From where it was, the dog simply made it to land over me while I was entering water. The paw of the dog cutted the skin in my forehead, lots of blood flowing in the water, very painful and shocking. Upon sitting on the margin, I was taking care of the wound, and at the same time contemplating the situation. I knew that it was supposed to happen. I tried to “steer” the experience away, just because I knew it supposed to happen. Yet, conscious or not, it happened anyway. This illustrates the kind of delusion we may call decision, choice or free will sometimes.

6) Anything to add?

Much gratitude for your time and dedication. Maybe the last 2 questions still need adressing, but I understand they don’t belong to direct pointing. Would be happy to be part of another thread where people would like to discuss these ideas; if you consider that this step of direct pointing is complete. Gratitude.

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Canfora
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby Canfora » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:17 pm

Hi Paulo! Thank you for your answers!
I have asked the other guides to read our conversation, to see if they want to ask you some more questions.

Here are the questions from other guide:

I would like to hear more about how you saw through the illusion. Was it suddenly in a moment or more gradual? How did you experience it? What was your first reaction? How did you feel directly after knowing that there never was a self? Were there any more reactions? Put everything down to "paper" that happened around seeing through the illusion, before and after.

Hug,
Sandra

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paulo8
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby paulo8 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:51 am

I would like to hear more about how you saw through the illusion. Was it suddenly in a moment or more gradual?

I would say several “grasps” during the reading of Jed’s books, with a “bigger” one (that make me stop reading to try to digest or “make sense” of it all in the “cows in the movie” part) like insights shedding light over a long journey I’ve been doing for many years. It would be strange to say “sudden” - nevertheless, even when they take place after long years of process, insights are of a “sudden” nature, in the moment we “register” the thing.

How did you experience it?
During the reading, there were some moments hen I needed to stop and read again, to see if I was getting it right. Sometimes a sens of “nooooo.. you’re not saying this!”…. followed by “read again, read again”. Afterwards, came the part of “cows in the movie” and that one really got me. I stop reading and kept on “digesting” that for some days. During those days, life looked little skewed; as if nothing was right in place. Soon, the feeling turn to the opposite: it was all exactly in the right place; making sense for maybe the first time. Yet, more time was needed to ponder other implications of the idea. After a good deal (some months) when I though about doing the autolisys, felt no need to do so. That was the moment I sense as “Done”, in Jed’s terms. There were no more questions, as far as the illusion of self. Left were those other 5 questions, that I was ruminating for last months - since I came across GG and read it - and decided to try the direct pointing method. That, in fact, eliminated the first 3 questions. I do believe the last 2 do not quite belong to the frame of direct pointing.

What was your first reaction?
Described above, I believe.

How did you feel directly after knowing that there never was a self?
… came the part of “cows in the movie” and that one really got me. I stop reading and kept on “digesting” that for some days. During those days, life looked little skewed; as if nothing was right in place. Soon, the feeling turn to the opposite: it was all exactly in the right place; making sense for maybe the first time.

Were there any more reactions?

Left were those other 5 questions, that I was ruminating for last months - since I came across GG and read it - and decided to try the direct pointing method. That, in fact, eliminated the first 3 questions. I do believe the last 2 do not quite belong to the frame of direct pointing.

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Canfora
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby Canfora » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:22 pm

Paulo, after reading your answer to Q5, other guide suggests the little exercise below:

Let's say that in the next 20 seconds from reading of this paragraph, you have an option to either raise your left hand, raise your right hand, or raise neither.

Answer afterwards:

1. What happened?
2. Explain in detail how it happened / what made it happen.
3. What is a choice?

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paulo8
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby paulo8 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:48 pm

Well, just plainly looking and reporting:

1. What happened?
Raised neither.

2. Explain in detail how it happened / what made it happen.
There were 3 options offered in the exercise, raising neither corresponds to one of the options. How it happened? I read, chose one option.

3. What is a choice?
How could it not be? I was offered 3 possibilities. Chose one of them. Perform the action. I could choose any other possibility. Anyways, this is the kind of thing I referred to as "small turns" of the canoe. This exercise, and its outcome, causes nothing of importance in life. When it comes to important or life changing events, much different than this exercise, although we may think we choose, it's illusion. Life plays as us, in a infinite sea of possibilities that are completely not "random"; but only far too complex for human form to grasp. Thats how I see it.

To be honest, I kind of feel curious about this whole "gethering of the guides" around this thread... what does that mean, to you guides? I would be really grateful to understand what kind of experience and meaning are you having with this thread; or is this "business as usual" for you all?

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Canfora
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby Canfora » Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:51 pm

To be honest, I kind of feel curious about this whole "gethering of the guides" around this thread... what does that mean, to you guides? I would be really grateful to understand what kind of experience and meaning are you having with this thread; or is this "business as usual" for you all?
Well, maybe you will become a guide and know how it is for yourself! :)
It's "business as usual". Guides come from different backgrounds and have different perspectives. It's always helpful having more than one person reading these conversations.

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paulo8
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby paulo8 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:01 pm

OK, looking forward to the response to the last exercise. Gratitude.

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Canfora
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby Canfora » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:26 pm

Hi Paulo!
3. What is a choice?
How could it not be? I was offered 3 possibilities. Chose one of them. Perform the action. I could choose any other possibility. Anyways, this is the kind of thing I referred to as "small turns" of the canoe. This exercise, and its outcome, causes nothing of importance in life. When it comes to important or life changing events, much different than this exercise, although we may think we choose, it's illusion. Life plays as us, in a infinite sea of possibilities that are completely not "random"; but only far too complex for human form to grasp. Thats how I see it.
Are you saying there is no choice for 'important' events but there is choice in small matters, like the hand exercise?
Small time deviations may be possible for us, but of no consequence in the journey. Like a small canoe in a huge river; that may do twists and turns, ultimately it IS inside and flowing with the river.
Is there any canoe - any self - that can do twists and turns?

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paulo8
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Re: Still 5 issues to be answered

Postby paulo8 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:34 pm

Gratitude. I feel this is going on a rethoric loop, rather than a conceptual one. Let me try to re-phrase:
There is no separate self, there is no question about it. All is life as US. Hence, Life as US decides. When I use the term "I", is a label. Life decides, LIfe Flows. Life does all. Including, most naturally and obviously, "choosing", "deciding", eating, walking; anything. Big or small, does not matter; in fact.
Life makes choices. I, as a unique point of view of life labelled as "I", "has" the impression that I decide; this is an effect of the conditioning of thinking in this terms, the perception or feeling of decision as being "independent".
I would be very thankful if you could confirm that this is what you mean, so I could understand that the way I feel this is simliar, equal, or different from the point of view that you and other guides see it.


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