Stickman requests a guide

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Stickman
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Stickman requests a guide

Postby Stickman » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:07 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
15 years of Dharma practice.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?
Deep inner inquiry.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?

First Dharma book at 18, years of travelling and exploring then 4 years of Shiatsu study followed by a return to the Dharma at 33.

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Aragon
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Aragon » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:18 pm

Hi there! I'm available if you'd like?

I need you to confirm you’re happy with that – and if so, please read the following:

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If you want to go ahead, and you've got your head round all that, let me know - especially the disclaimer.

And what should I call you?

Speak soon,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Stickman
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Stickman » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:22 pm

Hi Aragon, thanks for the response. Sorry, it's taken me a while to get up to speed with this and i might need a bit more coaching yet! So, i'm guessing you want to know where i'm at with this process. Sometimes i feel really close to seeing through. Others, Little Darren is large and well! Reading the book on here has helped. So, some specifics.....there is a sense here of Little Me making decisions. I like 'seeing happens', 'hearing happens.' That's really helpful but walking happens because 'i' decide it's going to. There is choice so i presume there has to be a decider, a chooser. In meditation i've got experience down to 'there is awarenes.' That awareness inhabits this body. This body is unique and feels pain when you don't. This whole package, i call 'me.' When the body dies i don't know if the consciousness dies with it or if 'i', as in the awareness plus the weight of it's actions, goes on. All speculation based on what i've read. My experience is, 'i don't know.' Does that get us started?? Thanks a lot for this. I've been looking forward to it!1

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Aragon
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Aragon » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:19 pm

Hi there!

Thanks for your message - good to hear from you!

How shall I refer to you?

Thanks for the update too - that's useful. Before we go in to all that, can you tell me this:

What are you looking for? What would it mean for this inquiry to be a success? What would 'seeing' mean in terms of your life and how it would change? How would life be different?

In other words, why bother doing this at all, what is the motivation?

Be as honest as you can.

Thanks, speak soon,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Stickman
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Stickman » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:26 pm

My suffering and the suffering of others has been my motivation for years. Finding an end to it, making sense of it all. I'm looking for clarity so i can respond to life in a clear and helpful way. For this inquiry to be a success i wouldn't be wrapped up in Little Darren anymore. You can call me Darren, by the way. There would be flow, freedom and ease. I would see my life carrying on in exactly the same way only with more peace and maybe more to draw from when sharing the Dharma with others. More clarity.

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Aragon
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Aragon » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:43 am

Hi Darren,

Thanks for your reply. Your expectations aren’t unrealistic. but this isn’t the end of suffering, though there may be some freedom found in suffering. There may be more flow, freedom and ease, but equally there are likely to be times when it’s not like that. It isn’t how you imagine it will be. As for the Dharma, it’s better to leave that at the door for this enquiry. You can come back to it later.

Okay, let’s start slowly…
Sometimes i feel really close to seeing through.
- What is it that could be close to seeing through?
there is a sense here of Little Me making decisions.
- Okay. Can you locate that little me? Can you find it in the body? Can you close your eyes and locate it, point to it? How big is it? Where exactly does it reside?

Write what you find. We’ll look at choice a bit later on.

Speak soon,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Stickman
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Stickman » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:07 am

'Seeing through' would mean that clarity had arisen for the awareness that dwells here. A mistaken view would of been resolved, a delusion made clear. 'Little Me' can roam around via the sense equipment it has access to. It can fill the whole body, dwell on a horizon, focus on it's inner world and write about it via this laptop. When it comes home to roost it lives in the heart and the back of the brain. It is Awareness, inhabiting a body.

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Aragon
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Aragon » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:05 am

Hi Darren,

That all sounds very nice, but it seems like ideas rather than experience. Can you try this for me:

Sit in a room. Close your eyes. Listen for a sound outside.

What sound is heard?

If you say "car", the next question is, how is it known there is actually a "car" (swap 'car' for whatever is heard) outside?

In that moment of listening to whatever, what can actually be said? What can actually be known? What is actually happening in that moment that you can be sure of?

Write from experience, not thoughts about it.

Be well,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Stickman
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Stickman » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:26 pm

The sound is recognisable based on past experience.

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Aragon
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Aragon » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:24 pm

Hi Darren,

Can you give me a bit more? Not wanting to be pushy, but it's hard to work with one-liners. And can you answer all the questions....?

- So there is a sound?
- What of?
- What is 'past experience' ? That sounds like another idea/concept. Can you find 'past experience' in your experience?

Watch what happens carefully. In the moment of doing the exercise, what is actually present?

Thanks,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Stickman
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Stickman » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:57 pm

There is 'just sound.' Then recognition based on memories. A reaction to the sound; frustration, anger, mixed in with an underlying tiredness which is dictating the response. A mix of conditions, reactions and responses. In the moment of the exercise 'just sound' and the awareness of sound.

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Aragon
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Aragon » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:56 pm

Hi Darren,
Then recognition based on memories.
What is the actual experience of memories/memory? Can you find memory in that moment?
In the moment of the exercise 'just sound' and the awareness of sound.
- Are these two things? Is there sound and awareness of sound?

We usually say/think ‘I head a sound’ – the hearer, the hearing, and the heard. Is it really like that? Listen very carefully. Is there a listener? Is there a gap between the awareness and the heard? Or is that just an idea?

Thanks,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Stickman
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Stickman » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:25 pm

As the sound of a voice singing comes in from outside an image of a man comes to mind. That is based on memories. There is recognition of a male voice and a male image that will go with it. Without awareness there's nothing for the sound to go to. The ears and the rest of the audio equipment can't make sense of the sounds coming in. Only the awareness can do that. What would be the point of the sounds if they weren't received by awareness which can then discern them as threat or dinner or neither? Yes, there is most definitely the sense of a listener here. It receives the sounds. It is awareness. It can discern, decide and act via the body. The sound and the listener seem to be as one but there is a weighing up that happens separately from the sound.

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Aragon
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Aragon » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:28 pm

Hi Darren,

I’m trying to get you to see what is present, and what is just an idea….
As the sound of a voice singing comes in from outside an image of a man comes to mind.
- so there is a sound labelled ‘voice singing’ and an image of a man?
That is based on memories.
- Memory is something you have learned. What is your actual experience of memory? Can you find 'memory'?
There is recognition of a male voice and a male image that will go with it.
- What is actual experience of recognition? Can you find recognition?
Without awareness there's nothing for the sound to go to.
- Again, isn’t this just an idea, a conceptual model. Are these two things? Can you find an ‘awareness’ and a ‘sound’? Can you find a sound without awareness of it? Can you find an awareness without the sound (object)?

- Or let me put it another way. Is there a sound and a hearer, or is there just hearing?
The ears and the rest of the audio equipment can't make sense of the sounds coming in.
- what is actual experience of ears. In your experience, without reverting to thought, how big are your ears? What is actual experience of ears?
What would be the point of the sounds if they weren't received by awareness which can then discern them as threat or dinner or neither?
- Having a point, is the realm of thoughts, of ideas. I’m just asking you to look and see what is there
Yes, there is most definitely the sense of a listener here.
- Can you find the listener? Or is there just listening?
It can discern, decide and act via the body.
Something happens. What is it that ‘says’ that was discerning and deciding via the body.

Be well,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Stickman
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Re: Stickman requests a guide

Postby Stickman » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:47 am

Ok, this is getting hard work! I tried dropping into this during the night. At base of this experience seems to be awareness, then the idea of Little Darren arises but it's so strong. I fall into it and completely believe it. It seems to be held in the body as well, so when letting go occurs the tension in the body releases. It felt like the front of the body fell off in some kind of way. Don't know if this is anything to do with what we're playing with here. Ok, back to the job at hand. Experiences of memory are like images that arise, linked to sound or smell or whatever other sense. I don't see the problem with memory. 'Memory' is a word we use so we know what i'm referring to. They are there though, stored in the mind to aid survival. Experience of recognition for me is an image, like a vague picture. Awareness is the word we use to describe the ability to perceive, to receive infromation via the senses. It is what is here in this body and mind. The sense organs can be closed off but awareness still sits here expectantly waiting. The awareness and the sound merge but then recognition, decision and action take place. Without awareness sound can't be perceived. If the proverbial tree falls in the forest and there is no hearing equipment to perceive it then the movement of air doesn't get heard. So, no awareness, no sound perceived but movement of air is still there. There is sound and awareness. Actual experience of ears is virtually nil. Except when they're itchy!! 'Having a point' is about an interconnected organism programmed to survive by nature. The listener is awareness. Awareness says 'that was discerning and deciding.'


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