Looking for a guide to make me see the truth

[Sadhu]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
A desire to break free from my thoughts and finally live in reality, and not in an illusion.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
I expect honesty, and a kick if need be :) I also hope to finally break the illusion of the mind and self, or attain so called "enlightenment".. even though it shouldn't exist if the self doesn't.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have been seeking since i have been 12 years old. I've read about occult stuff, meditation, visualization, turbo-suslik (something like russian self inquiry), and really anything i could get my hands on, to try and get closer to "enlightenment" and being free from thoughts. Only time that i managed this was when i listened to a really beautiful 1 hour meditation with Bach.. no thoughts, just pure bliss. Nothing else really happened after that. Not that it matters.. i don't care about fancy experiences, as long as i break free. Currently, i am doing mahasi style noting combined with neti-neti, and it's one of the reasons i decided to try this forum, since it has been working.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Sadhu,

I am happy to assist in exploring the illusion of the separate self, though I can only point the way. You have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers. Please take note of what is highlighted in BOLD.

We will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.

2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

Technical support:

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If you are happy to agree to the above and have me as your guide, we can start the process. Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Regards Kay

[Sadhu]

Hey Kay,
thank you for being my guide, i would be really happy to accept your guidance :)

How will life change?

I'm trying to feel the direct experience... Something i am aware of is the feeling that everything will be better after this. That life will be brighter, and that i am a little anxious about the future.

How will you change?

It feels like i'm expecting something grand to happen, something that will make me feel better and above the rest.
It also feels that my ego doesn't want to write this, expecting to be judged.

What will be different?

I don't know, i don't feel anything. Only thoughts that pop up are : am i doing this right? Should anything pop up? Okay, a thought just popped up. Me will be different.

What is missing?

Awareness. More love and happiness.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Enlightenment. The ego feels like it's going to be judged again, but i am aware of it at the moment, and i know the ego isn't me.

Something that i noticed that the ego is feeling, is the feeling that maybe i should add something more to the answers, doubt if im doing this right, and doubt if this will actually work.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Sudha,

Thank you for using the quote function. It keeps communication neat and clear. Thank you also for your upfront honesty and openness – this helps getting to the crux of things instead of taking detours to get passed the fear of being judged! There is no one here to judge you, that is ‘fear talking’, and as we move along our inquiry you will see that there is no one that can judge or be judged or be fearful.

When you read my responses to your answers, I would like you to watch for any resistance/fear that arises and to take note of the resistance/fear and let me know what the resistance/fear is and how it showed up.

How will life change?

I'm trying to feel the direct experience... Something i am aware of is the feeling that everything will be better after this. That life will be brighter, and that i am a little anxious about the future.

There is no separate individual trying to feel anything. Direct experience already is, there is no ‘person/separate entity’ that can make direct experience happen. There is no separate individual whose life can “be better”, “be brighter” or who can feel “anxious about the future”. The idea/concept of a “future” is a story.

How will you change?

It feels like i'm expecting something grand to happen, something that will make me feel better and above the rest. It also feels that my ego doesn't want to write this, expecting to be judged.

There is no ‘blinding light’ or finish line that announces you have ‘seen’ through the ‘separate individual’. Seeing happens through looking. There is no such thing as a “you” and an “ego”. You + ego = two and there is no two. There are thoughts appearing about “you” (separate individual) and about “ego” and both are fictional.

What will be different?

I don't know, i don't feel anything. Only thoughts that pop up are : am i doing this right? Should anything pop up? Okay, a thought just popped up. Me will be different.

There is no separate individual that is ‘doing’ anything or who could be “right” or “wrong” and no separate individual that can change or be “different”. Thoughts do “pop up” but they are not popping up to a ‘person’ called Sudha.

What is missing?

Awareness. More love and happiness.

There is no separate individual that could have or get “awareness” or “more love and happiness”. There are thoughts about “awareness” and “love and happiness” that appear but nothing is having or thinking them, so there is nothing that could gain “awareness” or “more love and happiness”.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Enlightenment. The ego feels like it's going to be judged again, but i am aware of it at the moment, and i know the ego isn't me.
Something that i noticed that the ego is feeling, is the feeling that maybe i should add something more to the answers, doubt if im doing this right, and doubt if this will actually work.

There is no separate individual that can reach ‘enlightenment’ or not reach ‘enlightenment’ so there is nothing to gain from ‘enlightenment’!

There are no “right” or “wrong” answers – right or wrong answers are coming from the intellect and rely on thought for answers. Thoughts know absolutely nothing about anything. There is only actual “looking” from direct experience to what is here, now.

There is no such thing as an “ego” that is feeling anything, let alone feeling that it will be judged! There are only thoughts appearing about a story called “ego” but nothing is having or thinking them.

Doubt is just another form of fear and although SEEMS to happen there is no separate individual than can feel “doubt” or “fear”.

Warm regards
Kay

[Sadhu]

Hey Kay,

Hello Sudha,

I noticed what you did there. I remember reading about a similiar trick in gateless gatecrashers. It made me feel funny and fuzzy.. i am also feeling a kind of sickness because i am constantly saying "i", "i am", "me", and i want it to stop. But technically, what is there to stop? Ugh.. it's like i can understand the concept, but i still can't see it, it's like im chasing it.

Thank you for using the quote function.

No problem! - a feeling of happiness appeared there, i believe. I hope i am doing this right? Feeling of insecurity..

Thank you also for your upfront honesty and openness – this helps getting to the crux of things instead of taking detours to get passed the fear of being judged! There is no one here to judge you, that is ‘fear talking’, and as we move along our inquiry you will see that there is no one that can judge or be judged or be fearful.

Thank you! - feeling of easiness there, a little fear still. Also, there is a feeling of "why cant i see it now? you make it seem so easy! I want to see it aswell!" to the part where you said that no one is here to judge me.. a thought popped up - "theres no one here, but i am still thinking, or should i say thoughts pop up (it feels like something wants to word it nicely so as to seem knowledgeable of all this, and not thought of badly or as if i am prideful.. at the moment i wrote prideful, i felt a feeling of.. something like "what, prideful?! not me! ugh!") if i understand why cant i see it?

I read the quoted paragraph again, and new thoughts pop up, something like - "no one to be judged eh? That's stupid", and also a feeling of wanting to write more.

There is no separate individual trying to feel anything.

There was a feeling of silence here, but with a very faint feeling of negative resistance, like a tightness. When i hear the word "self", i instantly get thoughts of something hard in my chest, something like glue, permanent and fixed. It's like it is screaming "here i am, are you blind!?"

Direct experience already is, there is no ‘person/separate entity’ that can make direct experience happen. There is no separate individual whose life can “be better”, “be brighter” or who can feel “anxious about the future”. The idea/concept of a “future” is a story.

Okay, thought popped up - "yeah, direct experience already is, but why cant i see it?". New thought.. remembering gateless gatecrashers, maybe i am trying to seek for it too hard? And a feeling of wanting to get approved here.
As i am reading the no separate individual and the rest, i don't feel anything, it's like im reading blank words.. thinking, should i feel anything? Just felt something in my chest, faintly, dont know what. As i am reading "anxious about the future", thoughts pop up - "yeah, right, what about college? what about life? how am i gonna live?" and a feeling of uneasy accompanying it. Future is a story.. i am thinking - "i wish it was like that, it sounds so nice" with a dreamy-like feeling with it.

There is no ‘blinding light’ or finish line that announces you have ‘seen’ through the ‘separate individual’. Seeing happens through looking. There is no such thing as a “you” and an “ego”. You + ego = two and there is no two. There are thoughts appearing about “you” (separate individual) and about “ego” and both are fictional.

Okay, thoughts popped up, something like - "who does this guy think he is? Like he knows anything about this, psshhh, no finish line, sure", and a feeling of uneasiness and fear, with more thoughts following - "what if he wont guide me anymore, maybe i shouldn't write it".

As i am reading seeing happens through looking, thoughts popped up - "how is this talking going to help me? I should do some practices, meditate or something, not waste time on this, we arent doing anything practical".

No such thing as me - i felt something like a surge of short, faint happiness, while for ego i felt something more dark. It seems i have labeled "me" as good, and "ego" as bad. New thoughts popping up - "i shouldnt put labels on anything".

There are thoughts appearing about both me and ego and both are fictional.. i feel resistance, but i also feel like it makes sense, and it kinda seems funny.

There is no separate individual that is ‘doing’ anything or who could be “right” or “wrong” and no separate individual that can change or be “different”. Thoughts do “pop up” but they are not popping up to a ‘person’ called Sudha.

Thoughts popping up - "yeah, no separate individual, then who is typing?" with more thoughts saying "direct experience is typing! noone!", with even more thoughts - "it's like a battle between two here!"

No right or wrong.. - more thoughts, something along the lines - "murder is good then, right?" with a feeling of something like "i got you now, you slipped!"

The last line seems to make sense to me, thoughts do pop up, but why am i still able to hear/view them? Also, a funny feeling as i am reading Sudha. That's hilarious :D

More thoughts popping up, thinking - "how much longer am i going to type this?", with more following up "youre doing this for your own good, keep going!", and a feeling of that this isn't going to help, i should just give up, its just typing anyway.

There is no separate individual that could have or get “awareness” or “more love and happiness”. There are thoughts about “awareness” and “love and happiness” that appear but nothing is having or thinking them, so there is nothing that could gain “awareness” or “more love and happiness”.

Reading the first line, thoughts said something like - "what felt the awareness during my mahasi style noting?" and "what was that then?". Reading the rest, it all makes sense, i also felt something like a tension or vibration during "nothing is having or thinking them", with thoughts thinking "this is like during awareness meditation! maybe i put labels onto this feeling as if i am attaining something special?".

Reading the last line, i feel like it would be so nice if i wouldnt have to seek anymore, or gain anything, and i feel a sense of relief, but also thoughts saying "nope, cant be, gotta keep going".

There is no separate individual that can reach ‘enlightenment’ or not reach ‘enlightenment’ so there is nothing to gain from ‘enlightenment’!

There are no “right” or “wrong” answers – right or wrong answers are coming from the intellect and rely on thought for answers. Thoughts know absolutely nothing about anything. There is only actual “looking” from direct experience to what is here, now.

There is no such thing as an “ego” that is feeling anything, let alone feeling that it will be judged! There are only thoughts appearing about a story called “ego” but nothing is having or thinking them.

Doubt is just another form of fear and although SEEMS to happen there is no separate individual than can feel “doubt” or “fear”.

Reading the first paragraph, i felt this - no way, what am i doing all this time then? Bullshit. I also have thoughts/feelings something like - "this isn't working, how am i supposed to see when i am just writing what arises?" and now, a feeling as if i am onto something, with some doubt.

The second paragraph.. makes sense.. thoughts pop up saying - "to whom?".

The third paragraph makes sense aswell.. thoughts popping up thinking " then who is aware of this, who is feeling all this and typing all this?" "If nothing exists, why do thoughts exist then?" - new thought.

Fourth, similiar to third. Thoughts - "it seems to happen but i still feel it, think it, am aware of it. Why? How?"

And finally, i feel something like gratitude and anticipation for the next post.
Also new feelings and thoughts - i wish to write "much love" - with feelings of fear of judging and thinking low of "me" arising. New thoughts - "am i doing this right, should i go into so much detail, maybe this isn't right, maybe this is too much and i shouldnt constantly say new thoughts, new feeling e.t.c"

Anyway, that's it for now, thank you for reading :)

Much love (heh),
- Sudha (funny)

[forgetmenot]

Dear Sudha,

What an absolute pleasure it was to read your responses. I had a laugh and I so enjoyed your honesty…I am loving it - and thank-you for the love! :) I see that there are a lot of thoughts popping up!

Just to let you know that I use the words ‘actual experience’ (AE) instead of ‘direct experience’ (DE) - they are both the same thing…but I am used of using AE.

When i hear the word "self", i instantly get thoughts of something hard in my chest, something like glue, permanent and fixed. It's like it is screaming "here i am, are you blind!?"

The label “self” is the actual experience of thought and not the actual experience of a “self’.
The “tightness – something hard in my chest” is the actual experience of sensation and not the actual experience of a “self”.

Direct experience already is, there is no ‘person/separate entity’ that can make direct experience happen. There is no separate individual whose life can “be better”, “be brighter” or who can feel “anxious about the future”. The idea/concept of a “future” is a story.

Okay, thought popped up - "yeah, direct experience already is, but why cant i see it?".

Is there an ‘awareness’ of thoughts, sensations, images, sounds, tastes and smells? If so, then you are already ‘seeing’ it! The irony is by 'thinking' that it is something special, it is overlooked!

"what if he wont guide me anymore, maybe i shouldn't write it".

He is a she! ;) This is ‘normal’, but I am here for the duration :)

I should do some practices

Haha….don’t complain later and say, “Kay, there is too much ‘looking’ that has to be done” ;)

"it's like a battle between two here!"

They are all random thoughts appearing and thoughts can’t battle other thoughts. Thoughts aren’t self-aware, nor do they know about other thoughts. The thought “it’s a battle between two here!” is just another thought and what it refers to is meaningless.

The last line seems to make sense to me, thoughts do pop up, but why am i still able to hear/view them? Also, a funny feeling as i am reading Sudha. That's hilarious :D

Haha! :) Thoughts do not and will not ever disappear. They are actual experience. What the thoughts refer to (what they are about) is not real, but the actual thoughts themselves are AE.

maybe i put labels onto this feeling as if i am attaining something special?".

There is no separate entity that can attain anything…let alone “something special”!

The third paragraph makes sense aswell.. thoughts popping up thinking " then who is aware of this, who is feeling all this and typing all this?" "If nothing exists, why do thoughts exist then?" - new thought.

Who says that “nothing exists”? If nothing exists then there would be no ‘awareness’ of thought, sensations, images, sounds, tastes or smells! What doesn’t exist is the ‘separate entity’ that thinks it is a ‘person’ having its own ‘personal experiences’, living a ‘personal life’.

Fourth, similiar to third. Thoughts - "it seems to happen but i still feel it, think it, am aware of it. Why? How?"

Yes, there is “awareness” but we will not be looking at that at this stage. This will come to light as we move along.

New thoughts - "am i doing this right, should i go into so much detail, maybe this isn't right, maybe this is too much and i shouldnt constantly say new thoughts, new feeling e.t.c"

There is no ‘separate individual’ who is deciding how much to write or not write, or what to write! Not even to decide to write or not write “much love”


Here is a list what seeing through the separate individual is NOT about:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self-improvement program.

Read this list several times, and watch out for any kind of resistance.

Much love
Kay

[Sadhu]

Yay, another response!
Hey Kay :D

What an absolute pleasure it was to read your responses. I had a laugh and I so enjoyed your honesty…I am loving it - and thank-you for the love! :) I see that there are a lot of thoughts popping up!

Thank you, that feels good! I'm trying to be as honest as i can, even though it feels like im breaking a brick wall with my head at times :) And yeah, there are. I can be quite aware of thoughts when i want to be (yeah, a feeling of wanting to boost my ego here, tsss)

The label “self” is the actual experience of thought and not the actual experience of a “self’.

Soooo.. this is gonna sound weird, but that is retartedly funny, i nearly choked from this :D I didn't get it at first read, but now i understand what you meant. The "self" is just a thought, wow. Retarted. Hahaha. Except being funny, i feel like i have more limitations, like i'm not ready, it can't be that simple. It's like i'm just not worthy. But that's stupid, how can i not be worthy or not worthy if the self is just a thought? Moreover, it feels like this sentence is something really important, like it's a key or something..

The “tightness – something hard in my chest” is the actual experience of sensation and not the actual experience of a “self”.

I understand, but what is the source of the AX of sensation? (This was a thought). Just feeling some curiosity.

Is there an ‘awareness’ of thoughts, sensations, images, sounds, tastes and smells? If so, then you are already ‘seeing’ it! The irony is by 'thinking' that it is something special, it is overlooked!

Yeah, there is (feeling agreement here, yay). And now, what you are probably expecting from reading these lines (yeah, thinking how i wanna be funny here) is - no way. Thought popped up - it cannot be just 'seeing' it.

He is a she! ;) This is ‘normal’, but I am here for the duration :)

Oh, okay, sorry :) feeling funny and nice at the moment.. it is nice to know that you're here for the duration!
More thoughts popping up - "how does she look like? yeah, you didn't think that when you thought it was a guy!"
Ooh, more blockages, feeling like not wanting to write that.

Haha….don’t complain later and say, “Kay, there is too much ‘looking’ that has to be done” ;)

Wanting to say that i'm scared, but i feel like i look forward to it. Or i want to say i feel like i look forward to it?.. Both.

They are all random thoughts appearing and thoughts can’t battle other thoughts. Thoughts aren’t self-aware, nor do they know about other thoughts. The thought “it’s a battle between two here!” is just another thought and what it refers to is meaningless.

Makes sense, but thought popped up - "if they don't know about other thoughts, why do some thoughts seem connected?"

Haha! :) Thoughts do not and will not ever disappear. They are actual experience. What the thoughts refer to (what they are about) is not real, but the actual thoughts themselves are AE.

So, i'm feeling interest, and thinking - if they don't disapear, how does it feel then? Is it constant awareness of everything, including thoughts? And now i am thinking how it doesn't matter, i should just see for myself. And more thoughts.. aren't i seeing it already, as i am typing this? Even more - it can't be that simple, you're overlooking something, where are the angels and the trumpets?
The other part makes sense, and feels kinda important.. and as i am thinking of this, i feel kinda confused. What the thoughts are about aren't real, so the self shouldn't be real, if the thoughts are about the self.. but if the thoughts, like actual thoughts, just thoughts are real, then what happens with the self? Feeling kinda confused.. at first it all made sense, now it seems like i confused myself.

There is no separate entity that can attain anything…let alone “something special”!

Makes sense.. at first i wanted to write that i didnt feel anything from this, but after a few readings it gave a feeling that it made sense.

Who says that “nothing exists”? If nothing exists then there would be no ‘awareness’ of thought, sensations, images, sounds, tastes or smells! What doesn’t exist is the ‘separate entity’ that thinks it is a ‘person’ having its own ‘personal experiences’, living a ‘personal life’.

Okay, so a thought popped up after reading this.. if the self isn't real, aren't we then the same as sensations, sounds, tastes, actual experiences of thought?.. but it kinda feels like im putting a label on it again, a label of "simple", and making the self simple, not realizing it doesn't exist. Feeling kinda confused, and a little awareness of the chest i would say.

There is no ‘separate individual’ who is deciding how much to write or not write, or what to write! Not even to decide to write or not write “much love”

More thoughts popping up - "is she just saying the same things again and again, how am i supposed to see, its all the same, what", more following - "maybe she's trying to give the same until one sentence strikes home and enlightens me", and of course, there is more thoughts of realizing that this is just guiding, not making me enlightened or that bullshit. More thoughts popping up, saying how i shouldn't write something like that, that i am too honest.

This is not a way to escape your daily life.

Kinda a feeling of dissapointment here. It feels like i wanted daily life to be better from this.

Second read through - "what is it then if its not that?" and "its not my second read through, you should write after several read throughs"

This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.

Same feeling of dissapointment, thoughts incoming - "im not gonna be special?".

Second read through - "well then, what is it?!"

This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.

Thoughts saying - "i don't really care about that"

This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.

More thoughts - "interesting.." with no feelings i believe, maybe a little insecurity about the fact that there are no feelings.

This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.

Same, feels like that doesn't matter. Though a thought popped up, saying that it wouldn't be too bad having some secret knowledge no one else has. More thoughts doubting the direct pointing method..

This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.

Same, nothing special. Thought popping up - "it's as if i really want to be something special, not judged and be able to judge others, while no one else being special", "you're too prideful".

This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.

I believe feeling of dissapointment, but im not sure on this one. I did feel a feeling in my chest. Thought popping up -"it's as if i want to become holy".

This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.

No feelings about belief, religion or philosophy, but feeling in my chest for magical or mystical. It's like i labeled magical or mystical and i want to become that. And here are feeling of not wanting to write that, again. Heh. A thought popped up - "you're killing me". More thoughts - "good", "i should".

This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.

Weirdly enough, this aswell doesn't strike anything in particular. Thinking, it would be nice to have those, but it's nothing compared to being special or enlightened. Wow, i'm really into being enlightened, aren't i. Kinda a feeling of shyness? shame? for feeling and wanting enlightenment. Feelings/thoughts about how i won't be judged by you here, and that it's okay.
Funny feeling and thought - "it's like i'm laying my mind open!". More funny thoughts - "if there is anything to open!".

This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.

Thoughts - "i don't feel much emotions anyway, i wish i could feel love more". More thoughts comparing this to enlightenment, and more thoughts of me being prideful and boastful.
Thoughts saying - "no need to type this, you know what she will answer, theres no one to be prideful". It's as if i expected this to be something special, some super enlightening method <- thinking..

This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.

Not much here aswell, thoughts like - "if i dont get rid of the ego, i wont get enlightened!".

This is not a solution to problems in relationships.

Nothing here. Insecurity if it's really like that, and a feeling that if i don't write everything i felt at the moment, that the method won't work, so i did write everything.

This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.

Same as above. Thought popped up - "i battled depression once anyway".

This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.

Thoughts - "how am i gonna become special then? noo.."

This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.

Nothing here.

This is not about convincing you of anything.

Nothing again. Some thinking of possibilites of convincing, nothing really gives a response.

This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.

Not much, but a feeling/thought of - "well, i wouldnt say no to that would i"

This is not a self-improvement program.

Thoughts something like - "i know, i'm not here for that, i'm here to get enlightened". More thoughts thinking - "dude, you kinda seem obsessed with enlightenment".

Second read through - "heheh, yeah, didnt know that already"

And finally

Much love

You used my words :) Funny/fuzzy feeling, and a little resistance to saying fuzzy. Thought popped up - "wow, just a word fuzzy can make resistance, wow".


Much love,
- Sudha (oh god that's hilarious)

[forgetmenot]

Hi Sadhu,

What we have been looking at so far is fears and expectations as these can hinder direct pointing and ‘looking’. As you have noted for yourself there is an expectation of becoming ‘enlightened’ making you special…an elite – A SOMEBODY! A ‘somebody’ that knows something and has become something special….all about being a ‘separate entity’. You are aware of this…which is excellent!

The label “self” is the actual experience of thought and not the actual experience of a “self’.

The "self" is just a thought, wow. Retarted. Hahaha. Except being funny, i feel like i have more limitations, like i'm not ready, it can't be that simple. It's like i'm just not worthy. But that's stupid, how can i not be worthy or not worthy if the self is just a thought? Moreover, it feels like this sentence is something really important, like it's a key or something..

The label “self” is the actual experience of thought which is attached to the image of a body (by another thought) and sensations which ‘thought says’ proves that the separate entity exists and experiences through a body called Sadhu.

I prefer the terminology ‘separate individual’ to ‘self’.

So the ‘separate individual’ = thought + image + sensation. We will be going deeper into this later.

Makes sense, but thought popped up - "if they don't know about other thoughts, why do some thoughts seem connected?"

How is it known that “thoughts seem connected”? Is it because another thought says so?

Haha! :) Thoughts do not and will not ever disappear. They are actual experience. What the thoughts refer to (what they are about) is not real, but the actual thoughts themselves are AE.

And more thoughts.. aren't i seeing it already, as i am typing this? Even more - it can't be that simple, you're overlooking something, where are the angels and the trumpets?

Isn’t it funny how we want angels and trumpets and a marching band to tell us what we already know! And because there aren’t any angels and trumpets to make it special, which will make “me” special…then there is a thought that say “this can’t be it”! It is the expectations of wanting angels and trumpets to appear to tell us we are now ENLIGHTENED that stops us from ‘seeing’ what we already know.

The other part makes sense, and feels kinda important.. and as i am thinking of this, i feel kinda confused. What the thoughts are about aren't real, so the self shouldn't be real, if the thoughts are about the self.. but if the thoughts, like actual thoughts, just thoughts are real, then what happens with the self? Feeling kinda confused.. at first it all made sense, now it seems like i confused myself.

What could possibly happen to something that doesn’t exist? There is nothing that happens with “the self” as there is no separate individual that anything can happen to. What does happen is that the story of being a ‘separate individual’ is no longer believed.

There is no separate individual that can feel ‘confused’! Confusion is a defence mechanism as there is fear that Sadhu may disappear when it is ‘seen’ that there is no separate individual.

Who says that “nothing exists”? If nothing exists then there would be no ‘awareness’ of thought, sensations, images, sounds, tastes or smells! What doesn’t exist is the ‘separate entity’ that thinks it is a ‘person’ having its own ‘personal experiences’, living a ‘personal life’.

Okay, so a thought popped up after reading this.. if the self isn't real, aren't we then the same as sensations, sounds, tastes, actual experiences of thought?

Yes, exactly! Can an ‘experiencer’ be found who is ‘experiencing’, or is there only experience?

.. but it kinda feels like im putting a label on it again, a label of "simple", and making the self simple, not realizing it doesn't exist. Feeling kinda confused, and a little awareness of the chest i would say.

Waiting for those angels and trumpets?! Start using the terminology of ‘separate individual’ instead of ‘self’ and see what that brings.

More thoughts popping up - "is she just saying the same things again and again, how am i supposed to see, its all the same, what

Yes, it gets to be repetitive and eventually it starts to sink in!

This is not a way to escape your daily life.

Kinda feeling of dissapointment here. It feels like i wanted daily life to be better from this.

So there is an idea that you want to escape your thoughts about daily life?
There is no separate individual that “feels disappointment” or who “wants daily life to be better from this”!

What is it exactly is it that wants “daily life to better from this”?
And please don’t give me an analytical or intellectual story. I want you to look at AE and tell me…what is it exactly that wants daily life to be better from this”? Describe it to me in detail.

There is no ‘separate individual/entity’ that can become “special” ever. Just like there is no ‘separate entity’ that can ever become ENLIGHTENED ever!

Wow, i'm really into being enlightened, aren't i.

Yes, and it is great that you can see this and are aware of it. Now you can begin to see the story and that there is no separate individual that can ever become ENLIGHTENED or SPECIAL.

“Enlightenment” looks a special way and has a special meaning to you. The idea of being ‘special’ is also about comparison…being better or more than another; being superior…which points to a someone – a separate individual.

Where exactly is this ‘separate individual’ located?

And finally
Much love
You used my words :) Funny/fuzzy feeling, and a little resistance to saying fuzzy. Thought popped up - "wow, just a word fuzzy can make resistance, wow".

Without stories, but from actually ‘looking’, what exactly is it that can feel “resistance”? Describe it to me in minute detail please.

Love Kay

[Sadhu]

Hey Kay,

thank you for your time, it makes my separate individual feel very happy every time i see a new response!

I believe i have been having feelings of things getting a little clearer, with thoughts following saying - "nah, it cant be, its just typing on a forum, thats stupid!" or "you're probably just imagining, get over yourself!".

So the ‘separate individual’ = thought + image + sensation. We will be going deeper into this later.

So technically.. thought is experience, image or seeing is experience, and sensation is experience aswell.. am i onto something here? Feeling a little confusion here.. if a separate individual is experience, shouldn't that mean he is real? It feels like it makes sense, but the thoughts pop up saying that it doesn't, that the "separate individual" is confused.. Why do i have to make the sep. indi. understand? I shouldn't have to.. It feels like it makes more sense if i use the word "self" instead of separate individual, since if the self is experience.. experience isn't able to think, or to feel, it just is. I'm writing all of this not only as a way of being honest, but so as to follow my own train of thought, since it can be a little complicated (yeah, just a feeling of proving myself, or defending myself from judging because of writing).

How is it known that “thoughts seem connected”? Is it because another thought says so?

Yeah.. thoughts popping up, not believing, but i also have a feeling that it is true. Experience can't think.. ( feeling of not wanting to write that, in fear of being wrong)

Isn’t it funny how we want angels and trumpets and a marching band to tell us what we already know! And because there aren’t any angels and trumpets to make it special, which will make “me” special…then there is a thought that say “this can’t be it”! It is the expectations of wanting angels and trumpets to appear to tell us we are now ENLIGHTENED that stops us from ‘seeing’ what we already know.

Heh, it's like we're chasing our own tails, while we just need to stop and look (yeah, that analogy just popped up). The "problem" (technically there is no problem..) is to actually stop and look (more thoughts and feelings that i can't do that, how do i that, i dont know how to do that, with more thoughts saying i dont have to stop and look, i dont have to do anything really. More thoughts saying - "it seems like the thoughts are getting converted, constantly thinking thats not right, thoughts cannot think!").

What does happen is that the story of being a ‘separate individual’ is no longer believed.

Thought - "how does that happen though?"

Yes, exactly! Can an ‘experiencer’ be found who is ‘experiencing’, or is there only experience?

While reading the first part, there is a feeling of "yes, here i am, the experiencer! look at me, im right here!", with a feeling of no, thats wrong, but at the same time right. While reading the second part, i feel total agreement. Sensations, thoughts, tastes.. all of them are just experiences.. We are just thoughts and a belief of some body image.. but those are experiences aswell.. but the only problem that seems to arise, that feels like a blockade, is the question - "isn't experience real? how can the self or separate individual be not real if he is just an experience, and the experience is real?". There is a feeling of really wanting to know.

What is it exactly is it that wants “daily life to better from this”?
And please don’t give me an analytical or intellectual story. I want you to look at AE and tell me…what is it exactly that wants daily life to be better from this”? Describe it to me in detai

I don't know, that's the first thing that popped up. After that, i have a feeling in my chest, as if it's saying that the feeling wants it, as if saying "i am you, and i say i want it!". But it cannot want it, it is just a feeling.. it seems so contradicting, but it makes sense. Reading the question again, the only thoughts that pop up are either nothing or i don't know. More thoughts pop up, such as "maybe you just conditioned yourself to think that, or just want to say that so as to please your guide"

Yes, and it is great that you can see this and are aware of it. Now you can begin to see the story and that there is no separate individual that can ever become ENLIGHTENED or SPECIAL.

If self is the separate individual, or it is separate, and if the self is just a thought, then i don't know what can get enlightened.. a thought? No.. i don't know what. It's like, if i put up an image - on the left side is the separate individual, or the self, and then i take it and move it away, separating it.. from what am i separating it? From nothing? What? More thoughts popping up, thinking - "haha, this isnt self inquiry, what are you doing, idiot?".

“Enlightenment” looks a special way and has a special meaning to you. The idea of being ‘special’ is also about comparison…being better or more than another; being superior…which points to a someone – a separate individual.

Where exactly is this ‘separate individual’ located?

That makes perfect sense.. Points to someone - a separate individual, the self.. the self is pretty much separate individual, but separate from what? What is left when there is no separate individual, when there is no self? There can't be two selves in a body.

Where exactly is this ‘separate individual’ located?

Reading this, i again (you're probably getting bored of this location, hahah) have a feeling in my chest, like it is saying "here i am!". Thoughts pop up, imagining it as something like a black rock, like it's feeling like that, in the center of my chest. A long black rock, like obsidian or something. Thoughts pop up, thinking if its touched hardly, it may crumble, or it may not, like if its like diamond.

Without stories, but from actually ‘looking’, what exactly is it that can feel “resistance”? Describe it to me in minute detail please.

I don't know.. that's the first thought and feeling. A new feeling of something like - "don't ask me, i don't know, stop asking me, i don't know, i don't know". It's like something doesn't want to answer, maybe it's the thoughts or the separate individual doesn't want to face the truth? But thoughts cannot want or fear.. now im getting a little analytical again though.. If there is no "don't ask me, i don't know", what else remains? Nothing.. and a feeling saying "you're just imagining this so as to seem cool and knowledgeable!". After reading the question again, multiple times, a new thought popped up - "Awareness?", with more thoughts thinking "Awareness is just being aware, nothing can actually feel it, you can only be aware of it".. That makes sense (and again thoughts, thinking - "if this is true, how do i actually use it and become enlightened?". Oh you thoughts with your enlightenment obsession)

Thoughts popping up - it's as if i can faintly grasp the concept, but it still eludes me somehow, or maybe i am just fantasizing, wanting to be successful in the guidance..

Love, Sudha (yeah, im actually gonna keep calling myself like that, it's so nice, haha)

[forgetmenot]

Hey Sadhu,

Everything that you have written has come from thinking and not from actual looking. You don’t need to write every thought you are having, it makes for long answers and clutters up the posts.

Putting the cart before the horse and trying to think the answers through with ‘stuff’ that you think you already know isn’t going to do you any favours here. Drop everything you think you know or think anything is, otherwise we are going to go around in circles and that just wastes time and you will become even more frustrated. The whole point of direct pointing is to ask questions which takes you to ‘looking’ - not thinking, and this is what brings the clarity and clear seeing. Trying to make sense of things through thoughts is the same as chasing your tail and is totally pointless, so you are going to have to slow down and do the work – which is ‘looking’.

We are here to see through the belief/concept of a ‘separate individual’ not to debate or find what parts are the ‘separate individual’ and what parts aren’t. By ‘looking’ this all comes to light, but that all hinges on you, to whether you want to ‘look’ or to rely on notions you ‘think’ you know. This isn’t a race to see how quickly you ‘get this’. It’s about taking the time to LOOK.

How is it known that “thoughts seem connected”? Is it because another thought says so?

Yeah.. thoughts popping up, not believing, but i also have a feeling that it is true. Experience can't think.. ( feeling of not wanting to write that, in fear of being wrong)

Thoughts can’t believe or not believe. You are guessing your way through this. I don’t want you to guess or “feel” if it is true or not, that is not what we are doing here. We aren’t here to confirm whether a thought is true or not or whether it is believable or not. I want you to ‘look’.

Looking isn’t difficult. It doesn’t require any special skills. ‘Looking” is just plain looking to what is here right now. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. It’s the ‘awareness’ of and ‘use’ of sound, taste, smell, sensation and images to explore what is always available, as well as noticing the 'presence' of a thought - not thinking, but noticing or being ‘aware’ of a thought/s.

Yes, exactly! Can an ‘experiencer’ be found who is ‘experiencing’, or is there only experience?

While reading the first part, there is a feeling of "yes, here i am, the experiencer! look at me, im right here!", with a feeling of no, thats wrong, but at the same time right. While reading the second part, i feel total agreement. Sensations, thoughts, tastes.. all of them are just experiences.. We are just thoughts and a belief of some body image.. but those are experiences aswell.. but the only problem that seems to arise, that feels like a blockade, is the question - "isn't experience real? how can the self or separate individual be not real if he is just an experience, and the experience is real?". There is a feeling of really wanting to know.

No looking done here…but a lot of thinking trying to work it out. Good luck with that. If you had been able to see through the ‘separate individual’ by doing that, you wouldn’t be here.

What is it exactly is it that wants “daily life to better from this”?
And please don’t give me an analytical or intellectual story. I want you to look at AE and tell me…what is it exactly that wants daily life to be better from this”? Describe it to me in detail

I don't know, that's the first thing that popped up. After that, i have a feeling in my chest, as if it's saying that the feeling wants it, as if saying "i am you, and i say i want it!". But it cannot want it, it is just a feeling.. it seems so contradicting, but it makes sense. Reading the question again, the only thoughts that pop up are either nothing or i don't know. More thoughts pop up, such as "maybe you just conditioned yourself to think that, or just want to say that so as to please your guide"

All story and no looking. So the “feeling in your chest” (which is a sensation) told you that it wants “daily life to be better from this”?
Does a sensation know anything about a “chest”?
Does a sensation know anything about “daily life”?
Does a sensation know anything about “better”?
Does a sensation know anything about a “body:?
Does a sensation know anything about a separate individual?

Where exactly is this ‘separate individual’ located?

That makes perfect sense.. Points to someone - a separate individual, the self.. the self is pretty much separate individual, but separate from what? What is left when there is no separate individual, when there is no self? There can't be two selves in a body.

I don’t want to know if it makes sense or not, I want you to look.

I want you to look very carefully. Scan the ‘body’ from the top of the head to the tips of the toes and tell me where the ‘separate individual’ is located and describe what the ‘separate individual’ looks like.

Where exactly is this ‘separate individual’ located?

Reading this, i again (you're probably getting bored of this location, hahah) have a feeling in my chest, like it is saying "here i am!". Thoughts pop up, imagining it as something like a black rock, like it's feeling like that, in the center of my chest. A long black rock, like obsidian or something. Thoughts pop up, thinking if its touched hardly, it may crumble, or it may not, like if its like diamond.

Wow! So when you had a look for the ‘separate individual’ you saw “a long black rock, like obsidian, or something”? Must be an all knowing rock that thinks and speaks!

Without stories, but from actually ‘looking’, what exactly is it that can feel “resistance”? Describe it to me in minute detail please.

I don't know.. that's the first thought and feeling.

I am not asking if you know and I don’t want you to go with the first thought and feeling (sensations) that ‘pop up’. Thoughts don’t know about sensations and sensations don’t know about thoughts and neither know nothing about anything! I want you to LOOK.

It's like something doesn't want to answer, maybe it's the thoughts or the separate individual doesn't want to face the truth?

What a story! All you have done is exchanged the words ‘separate individual’ with ‘ego’ which is just another way to hold onto the belief that there is a ‘you’ and an ‘ego’ and it is the ‘ego’ that isn’t getting it and if it wasn’t for the ‘ego’ you would be ‘enlightened’.

Thoughts popping up - it's as if i can faintly grasp the concept, but it still eludes me somehow, or maybe i am just fantasizing, wanting to be successful in the guidance..

Yes exactly…so I want you to start looking and not guessing, or trying to be knowledgeable, or trying to prove yourself or thinking you already know. You aren’t doing yourself any favours by doing these.

Love Kay

[Sadhu]

Hey Kay,
When you say looking, you mean just, like plain looking? Like how i am looking at the computer screen right now?

Scan the ‘body’ from the top of the head to the tips of the toes and tell me where the ‘separate individual’ is located and describe what the ‘separate individual’ looks like.

Well, i don't really feel anything except my awareness shifting from one part of the body to another..

Can an ‘experiencer’ be found who is ‘experiencing’, or is there only experience?

No.. there isn't anything. I just heard a car passing by, and that's all, it just happened.

Does a sensation know anything about a “chest”?
Does a sensation know anything about “daily life”?
Does a sensation know anything about “better”?
Does a sensation know anything about a “body:?
Does a sensation know anything about a separate individual?

No.

Without stories, but from actually ‘looking’, what exactly is it that can feel “resistance”? Describe it to me in minute detail please.

I don't know.. that's the first thought and feeling.


I am not asking if you know and I don’t want you to go with the first thought and feeling (sensations) that ‘pop up’. Thoughts don’t know about sensations and sensations don’t know about thoughts and neither know nothing about anything! I want you to LOOK.

I don't see any resistance though.

Love,
Sudha

[forgetmenot]

Hello Sadhu,

From now on, I will only be responding once a day to posts. I want you to slow down and start to LOOK.

When you say looking, you mean just, like plain looking? Like how i am looking at the computer screen right now?

I want you to go back to my previous post and read it again. I explained how to 'look' in that post. Please don't just quickly scan what I write in hope of picking out something that will help you to 'get it' and ignoring the rest.

Scan the ‘body’ from the top of the head to the tips of the toes and tell me where the ‘separate individual’ is located and describe what the ‘separate individual’ looks like.

Well, i don't really feel anything except my awareness shifting from one part of the body to another..

PLEASE READ ALL QUESTIONS CAREFULLY. I didn't ask you to "feel" anything. I asked you to tell me where the 'separate individual' is located and also to describe to me what the 'separate individual' looks like.
So please answer my question.

Can an ‘experiencer’ be found who is ‘experiencing’, or is there only experience?

No.. there isn't anything. I just heard a car passing by, and that's all, it just happened.

The sound labelled "car passing by" is the actual experience of sound and NOT the actual experience of a car passing by.
Can you see this?

What is it exactly that "heard a car passing by"?

Please tell me in your own words - What does the word ‘I’ refer to?
Where can this ‘I’ can be found?

Without stories, but from actually ‘looking’, what exactly is it that can feel “resistance”? Describe it to me in minute detail please.
I don't know.. that's the first thought and feeling.
I am not asking if you know and I don’t want you to go with the first thought and feeling (sensations) that ‘pop up’. Thoughts don’t know about sensations and sensations don’t know about thoughts and neither know nothing about anything! I want you to LOOK.

I don't see any resistance though.

You haven't answered my question. I didn't ask you to look to see if you can "see any resistance".
I asked WHAT EXACTLY IS IT THAT CAN FEEL "RESISTANCE"?
When you find exactly what it is that can feel "resistance", then DESCRIBE IT TO ME IN MINUTE DETAIL PLEASE. (even if you are not 'feeling resistance' right this moment, it doesn't matter...you can still look to see what it is exactly that can "feel resistance").

You are not reading my posts thoroughly and you are not reading my questions thoroughly. Please read everything thoroughly. Please answer my questions.

Love Kay

[Sadhu]

Hey Kay,

From now on, I will only be responding once a day to posts. I want you to slow down and start to LOOK.

Alright :) I will take more time, slow down, and try to look, really really look.

I just had an A-ha moment while reading through your posts (I experienced the A-ha moment when i was trying to look inside the room i am currently in, and then trying to look inside for my "self" or "separate individual" the same way as i tried to look inside the room, but not seeing anything, since you said to just look like i am seeing, or hearing, just pure sensation, experience. I don't know if this is the right way, but it did make the distinction clear, and other things clearer).If i look inside of my body, i don't see anything, i just see the body, just the experience of sensation/touching of the body. If i try to look at a separate individual, i don't see him, it's just a label of a thought, similiar to "I", just a label to an experience of a sensation of a thought.

I asked you to tell me where the 'separate individual' is located and also to describe to me what the 'separate individual' looks like.

It's located in the mind, it is a label on some thought of how this body looks like, how it behaves, how it thinks e.t.c. It doesn't look like anything.

The sound labelled "car passing by" is the actual experience of sound and NOT the actual experience of a car passing by.
Can you see this?

Yeah, i can see it. It's not a car passing by, it's the sound, an experience of a sound.

What is it exactly that "heard a car passing by"?

The body registered the sound, but the sound was just experienced.

Please tell me in your own words - What does the word ‘I’ refer to?

Before, it would have refered to myself, the body, mind, the person that should be Sadhu. Now.. through looking it doesn't refer to anything, it's just a label on the sensations of Sadhu.

Where can this ‘I’ can be found?

In the mind as a thought that is experienced. Or as a label for the body, used in communication.

WHAT EXACTLY IS IT THAT CAN FEEL "RESISTANCE"?

The direct experience.. it isn't awareness as it is only an experience and is aware of resistance, thought is just an experience, feeling is experience..

I will look more and see what more comes up, but these feel so simple and nice.. no need to get enlightened, no need to get a better life, or to suffer. All of those just seem to burn away if i look at them simply, it's kinda funny actually. When i had the A-ha moment, it felt kinda relaxing, but i also experienced something like a numbness.. questioning, is this it?

I don't know if the a-ha moment did anything, or if i am on the right track, but i don't really feel a wish for enlightenment as before. It still is there somewhere, but that wish just kinda isn't mine. I still have to take time to look at everything, it isn't ingrained, but if i look, it seems clear and simple, and then it just.. burns away (if its a thought or a feeling). Anyway, i'm going to sleep now, it's 5 o'clock night time here, and the body is tired after looking for the answers. I'm interested to know how it will be like tomorrow, to try and look more at everything.

Love,
Sadhu :)

[forgetmenot]

Dear Sadhu,

The posts are way too busy and it is all becoming rather messy. I want to go back to grass roots and focus on just thoughts for now. It’s important to be able to distinguish between actual experience (AE) of thought and the content of a thought. Contents of a thought are pure story. If this isn’t seen clearly…then we don’t get far with seeing through the ‘separate individual’.

So let’s take a look at thoughts.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts:

(1) Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or “this is dumb” - any sort of thoughts.

(2) This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

(3) Then wait for the next thought to come.

(4) When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

(5) Then wait for the next thought to come.

(6) Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought comes in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:

Throughout your entire waking day and until you go to bed at night, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

Love Kay

[Sadhu]

Hey,

Let me know how you go.

i'll be back in a day, to tell you how it went :)
Thank you for the patience.

Love,
Sudha