Recommended by Jackson Peterson Dzogchen instructional video

[harrye]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I heard about Liberation Unleashed from a series of videos on YouTube by Dzogchen meditation teacher Jackson Peterson. Jackson emphasizes in his teachings the importance of seeing the illusion of the self, and and recommended this website as an excellent means of doing just that. Whilst I feel that I do get a glimpse of this notion from time to time in my meditation practice, I feel that I could very much benefit from some guidance.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I've been interested in meditation for a little over 2 years. I have been on two 10 day vipassana retreats, and have also learnt NSR meditation. Roughly 6 months ago, I came a cross Dzogchen, and have found it to make a lot of sense to me. I try to practice meditation in some form or another once a day or so. I feel I am looking to develop understanding and compassion for myself and those around me.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
I think this conversation will be beneficial, as it is a personalized approach to seeing the illusion of the self. I think it will be motivating to have an on-going dialogue with a guide over a period of time.

[Bananafish]

Hi harrye! Welcome to LU. :)
I'm more than glad to help you in seeing through the illusion of separate self.

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I heard about Liberation Unleashed from a series of videos on YouTube by Dzogchen meditation teacher Jackson Peterson. Jackson emphasizes in his teachings the importance of seeing the illusion of the self, and and recommended this website as an excellent means of doing just that. Whilst I feel that I do get a glimpse of this notion from time to time in my meditation practice, I feel that I could very much benefit from some guidance.

Glad that you got here, harrye. :)

One thing to note ... during our conversation, for the time being,
please put aside all the teachings, methods, and philosophies, ideas about
"enlightenment" you've learned so far, so that you can simply LOOK at reality through
any preconception. Is that ok for you?

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I've been interested in meditation for a little over 2 years. I have been on two 10 day vipassana retreats, and have also learnt NSR meditation. Roughly 6 months ago, I came a cross Dzogchen, and have found it to make a lot of sense to me. I try to practice meditation in some form or another once a day or so. I feel I am looking to develop understanding and compassion for myself and those around me.

Here we will see if there is an "I" that is going to develop compassion.
Does it sound odd? :)

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
I think this conversation will be beneficial, as it is a personalized approach to seeing the illusion of the self. I think it will be motivating to have an on-going dialogue with a guide over a period of time.

OK, shall we start from this? :

What is the "I" that practices meditation every day?

[harrye]

Hi Bananafish,

Thanks for replying and offering to guide me, that would be great :)

Glad that you got here, harrye. :)

One thing to note ... during our conversation, for the time being,
please put aside all the teachings, methods, and philosophies, ideas about
"enlightenment" you've learned so far, so that you can simply LOOK at reality through
any preconception. Is that ok for you?

Yes I am happy to put aside anything I have learnt previously about 'enlightenment', and to focus on trying to be as honest as possible in our conversation. Is it best I put aside my daily meditation practice for now as well, or is it ok to continue this for the duration of our conversation?

Here we will see if there is an "I" that is going to develop compassion.
Does it sound odd? :)

It does sound odd in the sense that it would seem a word is needed to describe oneself, however I do understand that the "'I" in terms of the ego is just a bundle of thoughts. I feel like I see this sometimes during meditation, when I try and 'look for the looker,' so to speak, after conjuring up a memory with a strong sense of 'me.' I find this quite difficult though hehe :)

OK, shall we start from this? :

What is the "I" that practices meditation every day?

The I that practices meditation every day feels like a sense of determination to do something to 'help' myself, if that makes sense? When think about the term 'I' there seems to be a sense of personal drive/personal mission that comes up, and over the past few years for me a lot of my efforts have been in helping myself try and understand myself better.

Look forward to your reply,

Harry

[Bananafish]

Hi Harry, today is my day off, so it would be nice to
exchange several posts here. Looking forward to it. :)

Yes I am happy to put aside anything I have learnt previously about 'enlightenment', and to focus on trying to be as honest as possible in our conversation. Is it best I put aside my daily meditation practice for now as well, or is it ok to continue this for the duration of our conversation?

Not at all! If you feel like meditating, please do, but please refrain from
bringing any concepts, thoughts, or arguments that has to do with any
'style' of meditation, or any teaching / tradition on which the way you meditate is based.
That is the point.

It does sound odd in the sense that it would seem a word is needed to describe oneself, however I do understand that the "'I" in terms of the ego is just a bundle of thoughts. I feel like I see this sometimes during meditation, when I try and 'look for the looker,' so to speak, after conjuring up a memory with a strong sense of 'me.' I find this quite difficult though hehe :)

That is a very nice LOOKING, Harry! You say "I" is just a bundle of thoughts ...
Then, LOOK at this:

Can a thought do anything?


Try this:

Try raising one of your hands now ...












...












Which hand did you raise?

Did a thought decide which one to raise?
Or, did the thought "I chose this one" come after the decision is made?

Also, did a thought actually raise the hand?


Try this as much as you can, until you are 100% sure of your answer.

The I that practices meditation every day feels like a sense of determination to do something to 'help' myself, if that makes sense? When think about the term 'I' there seems to be a sense of personal drive/personal mission that comes up, and over the past few years for me a lot of my efforts have been in helping myself try and understand myself better.

Is that "sense" of determination, personal drive / mission a thought? A feeling? An emotion?
What is it? And where does it come from?

[harrye]

Hi Bananafish,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. I think perhaps we are in different time-zones (I am in Tasmania, Australia), and so perhaps I was sleeping during your day off. I will make an effort to make at least one post per day to keep momentum with our discussion.

Can a thought do anything?

Not directly, but it can propel actions if the thought is given attention, I think.

Try this:

Try raising one of your hands now ...

Which hand did you raise?

My right hand

Did a thought decide which one to raise?
Or, did the thought "I chose this one" come after the decision is made?

The latter, I noticed the thought come after raising my hand.

Also, did a thought actually raise the hand?

I don't think a thought actually made me raise my hand, in the sense that I can see the physical action as separate from the thought about raising my hand that comes after.

Try this as much as you can, until you are 100% sure of your answer.

I tried the exercise several times. The exercise made me think of something mentioned in the Liberation Unleashed app 'Enlightening Quotes,' where it is mentioned that thoughts describe actions/things. I could see this taking place after raising my hand each time. However, after doing the exercise several times, I found that my mind was commenting on the raising of my hand (left or right), in anticipation of raising the hand.

Is that "sense" of determination, personal drive / mission a thought? A feeling? An emotion?
What is it? And where does it come from?

It seems to be all of those 3 (feeling, emotion, thought). It is a strong desire to help myself from a fear of being unwell, I think. I have had trouble with depression and anxiety over the years, and this "sense" seems to have come from a response to that, as though if I don't do something to help myself in some way then I'll be overtaken by anxiety/depression, if that makes sense?

[Bananafish]

Hi Bananafish,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. I think perhaps we are in different time-zones (I am in Tasmania, Australia), and so perhaps I was sleeping during your day off. I will make an effort to make at least one post per day to keep momentum with our discussion.

No problem at all Harry. :) I live in Japan, so the time difference would be … one hour? Yes, please post at least once a day even when I don’t post, or even when you are still LOOKing until anything is found.

"Can a thought do anything?"


Not directly, but it can propel actions if the thought is given attention, I think.

You say “I think.”
You also say “it can.”

Did you actually LOOK?

Please, Harry, DON’T think. There’s no room for ideas, concepts or possibilities here.
Actually feel, look, see, what is now and here, without thinking, conceptualizing, or
guessing.

Can you give specific examples when a thought propels actions?

I tried the exercise several times. The exercise made me think of something mentioned in the Liberation Unleashed app 'Enlightening Quotes,' where it is mentioned that thoughts describe actions/things. I could see this taking place after raising my hand each time. However, after doing the exercise several times, I found that my mind was commenting on the raising of my hand (left or right), in anticipation of raising the hand.

Again, please don’t compare your direct experience to anything you’ve learned so far. Do the exercise again, without any preconception, and please report what you found out from reality.

"Is that "sense" of determination, personal drive / mission a thought? A feeling? An emotion?
What is it? And where does it come from?"

It seems to be all of those 3 (feeling, emotion, thought). It is a strong desire to help myself from a fear of being unwell, I think. I have had trouble with depression and anxiety over the years, and this "sense" seems to have come from a response to that, as though if I don't do something to help myself in some way then I'll be overtaken by anxiety/depression, if that makes sense?

Look again, please, and write what you are 100% sure about. You say “it seems.” Look closely and see what exactly it is. Feel it. Keep looking until you clearly see it. Don’t refer to your past. LOOK at what is now.

What is this “sense?”
Is it ‘my’ sense, or just a sense?

[harrye]

You say “I think.”
You also say “it can.”

Did you actually LOOK?

Please, Harry, DON’T think. There’s no room for ideas, concepts or possibilities here.
Actually feel, look, see, what is now and here, without thinking, conceptualizing, or
guessing.

Sure, I'll try and focus on what's happening now in my direct experience. How easy it is to start layering on the concepts haha!

To respond more directly to your initial question: No, a thought in itself can't do anything.

Can you give specific examples when a thought propels actions?

When I said this I meant say when I have the thought to 'eat breakfast,' or 'have a shower,' which then precedes the action of doing those things. But I can see now after looking at the here and now, that a thought itself doesn't do anything: It's not the thought showering.

Again, please don’t compare your direct experience to anything you’ve learned so far. Do the exercise again, without any preconception, and please report what you found out from reality.

Yes sorry again about referencing outside of direct experience. I'll do my best to stay with direct experience.

The decision was made to raise my hand each time, and yes the thought about which hand was raised came after the decision, as a description of what had happened

Look again, please, and write what you are 100% sure about. You say “it seems.” Look closely and see what exactly it is. Feel it. Keep looking until you clearly see it. Don’t refer to your past. LOOK at what is now.

The sense of determination is a thought :)

To elaborate, it is a pattern of thought, or a habit of thought

Is it ‘my’ sense, or just a sense?

It is just a 'sense' that I am experiencing. It is just a thought that has been given a lot of attention on a regular basis.

With the above, however, it is hard to distinguish feeling from emotion from thought. Maybe they are the same thing?

[Bananafish]

Hi Harry! You're doing very well. :). I see honesty in your answers, and that helps a lot. Take the courage to be free, and let's do this with a razor-sharp focus!

Sure, I'll try and focus on what's happening now in my direct experience. How easy it is to start layering on the concepts haha!
To respond more directly to your initial question: No, a thought in itself can't do anything.

Yes, yes, this concept thingy is surely tricky. :) But they're just tricks.
Ok, thoughts can't do anything ... are you 100% certain?

"Can you give specific examples when a thought propels actions?"

When I said this I meant say when I have the thought to 'eat breakfast,' or 'have a shower,' which then precedes the action of doing those things. But I can see now after looking at the here and now, that a thought itself doesn't do anything: It's not the thought showering.

Well said! I like it ... yes, it's not the thought showering.
Is there any 'self' that is showering?

Yes sorry again about referencing outside of direct experience. I'll do my best to stay with direct experience.

The decision was made to raise my hand each time, and yes the thought about which hand was raised came after the decision, as a description of what had happened

No, no, you don't have to apologize. :) You're on the track, Harry. :)
Again, did you actually see it, or is it an intellectual understanding?

The sense of determination is a thought :)

To elaborate, it is a pattern of thought, or a habit of thought

Ok, so you mean the "I" is a thought ... am I correct?

"Is it ‘my’ sense, or just a sense?"

It is just a 'sense' that I am experiencing. It is just a thought that has been given a lot of attention on a regular basis.

With the above, however, it is hard to distinguish feeling from emotion from thought. Maybe they are the same thing?

Whatever this "sense" is ...
Are "you" experiencing it?
If "I" is just a thought, can a thought experience a sense?

[harrye]

Hi Harry! You're doing very well. :). I see honesty in your answers, and that helps a lot. Take the courage to be free, and let's do this with a razor-sharp focus!

Thanks Bananafish, I'm trying my best. I have to admit that it is difficult to be direct with answers, as I do find myself becoming quite cloudy in my thinking here. But they are just thoughts of course! Though, some thought is needed for this conversation.

Yes, yes, this concept thingy is surely tricky. :) But they're just tricks.
Ok, thoughts can't do anything ... are you 100% certain?

Yes, I am certain, but to elaborate: Thoughts can't do anything in terms of a physical action, but thoughts can seem to be a source of inner discomfort if sustained by one's attention (ie rumination). In this case though, the thoughts themselves are not really doing it, as the attention is given by oneself, not by another thought. Does that make sense?

Well said! I like it ... yes, it's not the thought showering.
Is there any 'self' that is showering?

Yes. The physical self, and ones conscious awareness. But no senlf in terms of a 'Harry,' just a physical body and an awareness. The 'Harry' that has an agenda for the day etc is a bundle/momentum of thoughts, arising spontaneously, and fueled by the attention of my conscious awareness.

With this comment, my understanding is largely intellectual, rather than experiential.

No, no, you don't have to apologize. :) You're on the track, Harry. :)
Again, did you actually see it, or is it an intellectual understanding?

Ok no problem, thanks Bananafish.

Yes I did actually see it, but it began as an intellectual understanding before becoming experiential. The description of me raising my hand occurs either as the hand is being raised, or after it has been raised. In between me raising my hands there are thoughts about the idea of 'raising ones hand,' but no actual decision-thought to 'raise the right hand/left hand.' This thought only appears as a description either during or after the action itself.

Ok, so you mean the "I" is a thought ... am I correct?

Actually, what I meant here is the motivation/determination to help myself is a series of thoughts.

Whatever this "sense" is ...
Are "you" experiencing it?
If "I" is just a thought, can a thought experience a sense?

Here I think I need to clarify what you mean by "you." When using this term, do you mean it in reference to the same idea as an "I," a "me" etc, or are you referring to a more baseline self in terms of ones conscious awareness (ie the awareness that is able to perceive thought).

If you mean "you" in the same way as "I," then no, it is not "I" experiencing this sense, because as you say, "I" is just a thought. Once again, here I feel my understanding is only partly experiential, intellectually it makes complete sense though.

[Bananafish]

Thoughts can't do anything in terms of a physical action, but thoughts can seem to be a source of inner discomfort if sustained by one's attention (ie rumination). In this case though, the thoughts themselves are not really doing it, as the attention is given by oneself, not by another thought. Does that make sense?

Can you sustain a thought ... ? Have you tried that? Try it and tell me.
Can you control thoughts? Can you, every time, stop them in the middle,
or avoid thoughts that bother?

The physical self, and ones conscious awareness. But no senlf in terms of a 'Harry,' just a physical body and an awareness. The 'Harry' that has an agenda for the day etc is a bundle/momentum of thoughts, arising spontaneously, and fueled by the attention of my conscious awareness.

With this comment, my understanding is largely intellectual, rather than experiential.

What is a "physical self?" Does a body have to have a "self?"
See where exactly in the body a self exists.

Also, who owns consciousness?
Is there any owner of the consciousness?

I did actually see it, but it began as an intellectual understanding before becoming experiential. The description of me raising my hand occurs either as the hand is being raised, or after it has been raised. In between me raising my hands there are thoughts about the idea of 'raising ones hand,' but no actual decision-thought to 'raise the right hand/left hand.' This thought only appears as a description either during or after the action itself.

Great LOOKing ...! Please, examine everything in that manner. :)

Actually, what I meant here is the motivation/determination to help myself is a series of thoughts.

Previously you wrote that the "I" is this kind motivation / determination ... ?

Here I think I need to clarify what you mean by "you." When using this term, do you mean it in reference to the same idea as an "I," a "me" etc, or are you referring to a more baseline self in terms of ones conscious awareness (ie the awareness that is able to perceive thought).

If you mean "you" in the same way as "I," then no, it is not "I" experiencing this sense, because as you say, "I" is just a thought. Once again, here I feel my understanding is only partly experiential, intellectually it makes complete sense though.

Yes, the same as "I."

Don't believe me.
Don't refer to what I said when LOOKing.

Look for yourself ... I can't look for you, my friend.
Again,

is there an "I" experiencing senses?

[harrye]

Can you sustain a thought ... ? Have you tried that? Try it and tell me.
Can you control thoughts? Can you, every time, stop them in the middle,
or avoid thoughts that bother?

No, I cant sustain a thought, I had a look at that just now. The thought that I can sustain a thought, or that I am sustaining a thought, is a thought itself that changes as well.
No, I can't control thoughts, they just happen, but I can choose to focus on something else and then the thought changes on its own anyway.

I do think though that when a thought is given attention, that 'habit' of thought is often perpetuated. I can see this for example with counting my footsteps as I walk sometimes. If my conscious awareness notices the counting, and 'watches' it so to speak, it will often continue for some time (though admittedly eventually change on its own). However if I notice this and then, for example, turn my attention to the sound of a bird, then the thought is no longer in focus, and either changes, disappears, or diminishes in intensity (ie the degree to which it is within the attention of consciousness).

What is a "physical self?" Does a body have to have a "self?"
See where exactly in the body a self exists.

By physical self what I meant was the physical body. There is no "Harry, "I," or "self" that exists within the body, there is just the physical body, the conscious awareness that is aware via the physical body, and the thoughts that arise spontaneously and are experienced by the conscious awareness.

Also, who owns consciousness?
Is there any owner of the consciousness?

This is such an important question, and is this is where a barrier is for me. When you ask this question, it is hard for me to answer with any clarity. I can say from an intellectual angle that the body is just a vessel for consciousness, and that the "I" is just a bundle of thoughts, and so there is no owner of consciousness beyond the physical body itself its context. There can be no "owner" to an awareness or consciousness, since the idea of "owning" something is a concept that needs itself to be perceived. If something needs to be perceived, and it is not perceived directly by the senses (ie hearing a bird/seeing a cup of coffee - though here there are also conceptual labels that themselves are thoughts), then it is a thought. This all makes a lot sense to me.

In saying all this, something important is being articulated, but is very hard for me to take beyond a stage of intellectual understanding. :)

Previously you wrote that the "I" is this kind motivation / determination ... ?

Upon reviewing one of my early posts I can see you're right about me associating "I" with this sense of motivation/determination, thought I don't think I used the words "kind motivation?" I'm not sure, I may have missed it. :) What I meant here is that my motivation to help myself is what "I" am occupied with at these times. In this sense, the motivation/determination etc are feelings and thoughts that are being experienced by my conscious awareness. There is no "I," though, just these feelings/thoughts and the consciousness that is experiencing them as they arrive spontaneously.

I is a thought/feeling.

I have not been consistent with the language I am using, sorry about that. It is difficult when "I" etc are such loaded words hehe, and also with a foggy mind! Sometimes I think when doing this kind of investigative work I become quite foggy, and I suspect this is almost a defense mechanism of the ego not wanting to be unraveled.

is there an "I" experiencing senses?

No, there is no I experiencing senses, because my sensory information is experienced by my conscious awareness, and there is no trace of "I" in conscious awareness, there is just sensory information, and thoughts.

[harrye]

On reviewing my last sentence above, the term 'my' seems problematic. It would make more sense to have a sentence: "because sensory information is experienced by conscious awareness, and there is no trace of "I" in conscious awareness, there is just sensory information, and thoughts."

[Bananafish]

No, I cant sustain a thought, I had a look at that just now. The thought that I can sustain a thought, or that I am sustaining a thought, is a thought itself that changes as well.
No, I can't control thoughts, they just happen, but I can choose to focus on something else and then the thought changes on its own anyway.

Nice LOOKing! :)

I do think though that when a thought is given attention, that 'habit' of thought is often perpetuated. I can see this for example with counting my footsteps as I walk sometimes. If my conscious awareness notices the counting, and 'watches' it so to speak, it will often continue for some time (though admittedly eventually change on its own). However if I notice this and then, for example, turn my attention to the sound of a bird, then the thought is no longer in focus, and either changes, disappears, or diminishes in intensity (ie the degree to which it is within the attention of consciousness).

Ok, then, is there an "I" that attends, focuses, or notices the thought?
Is that just awareness, or "my" awareness?

By physical self what I meant was the physical body. There is no "Harry, "I," or "self" that exists within the body, there is just the physical body, the conscious awareness that is aware via the physical body, and the thoughts that arise spontaneously and are experienced by the conscious awareness.

Thanks, now I understand. So, to make sure, is there a "self" in the body?

Also, who owns consciousness?
Is there any owner of the consciousness?

This is such an important question, and is this is where a barrier is for me. When you ask this question, it is hard for me to answer with any clarity. I can say from an intellectual angle that the body is just a vessel for consciousness, and that the "I" is just a bundle of thoughts, and so there is no owner of consciousness beyond the physical body itself its context. There can be no "owner" to an awareness or consciousness, since the idea of "owning" something is a concept that needs itself to be perceived. If something needs to be perceived, and it is not perceived directly by the senses (ie hearing a bird/seeing a cup of coffee - though here there are also conceptual labels that themselves are thoughts), then it is a thought. This all makes a lot sense to me.

In saying all this, something important is being articulated, but is very hard for me to take beyond a stage of intellectual understanding. :)

As you say its still intellectual, I still see lots of concepts in your answer.
To make it rather simple, please LOOK at this, which I simply rephrased the same question
as above:

When being conscious, where can you find an "I" that is conscious?
Try and find one. Can you find any?

Don't think, just LOOK.

Upon reviewing one of my early posts I can see you're right about me associating "I" with this sense of motivation/determination, thought I don't think I used the words "kind motivation?" I'm not sure, I may have missed it. :)

Sorry, Harry, I meant "kind of motivation," that was a typo ...

What I meant here is that my motivation to help myself is what "I" am occupied with at these times. In this sense, the motivation/determination etc are feelings and thoughts that are being experienced by my conscious awareness. There is no "I," though, just these feelings/thoughts and the consciousness that is experiencing them as they arrive spontaneously.

I is a thought/feeling.

Can the "I" be two things? If it is just a thought,
how can it be a feeling at the same time? Is the thought "I" attached to
feeling?

Also,as asked before, can you find the "I" that is conscious?

I have not been consistent with the language I am using, sorry about that. It is difficult when "I" etc are such loaded words hehe, and also with a foggy mind! Sometimes I think when doing this kind of investigative work I become quite foggy, and I suspect this is almost a defense mechanism of the ego not wanting to be unraveled.

No worries, Harry. :) Keep LOOKing, even if fogginess happens.

is there an "I" experiencing senses?

No, there is no I experiencing senses, because my sensory information is experienced by my conscious awareness, and there is no trace of "I" in conscious awareness, there is just sensory information, and thoughts.

Here, again, is it "my" consciousness?
Keep looking until your answer is 100% experiential.

[Bananafish]

On reviewing my last sentence above, the term 'my' seems problematic. It would make more sense to have a sentence: "because sensory information is experienced by conscious awareness, and there is no trace of "I" in conscious awareness, there is just sensory information, and thoughts."

Oops! Missed this post of yours. Sorry.
Is there an "I" anywhere? Could you find?

[harrye]

Ok, then, is there an "I" that attends, focuses, or notices the thought?
Is that just awareness, or "my" awareness?

It is just awareness that notices the thought. The awareness is "my awareness" in the sense that it is my body and consciousness experiencing the thought, and not someone elses body and consciousness, but there is no 'me' noticing the thought in the sense of the 'me' that is the sum of my experiences and concepts, as they are just thoughts.

Thanks, now I understand. So, to make sure, is there a "self" in the body?

No, there is no self in the physical body.

As you say its still intellectual, I still see lots of concepts in your answer.
To make it rather simple, please LOOK at this, which I simply rephrased the same question
as above:

When being conscious, where can you find an "I" that is conscious?
Try and find one. Can you find any?

Don't think, just LOOK.

No I can't find an "I" that is conscious: upon looking, consciousness precedes the notion of "I."

Can the "I" be two things? If it is just a thought,
how can it be a feeling at the same time? Is the thought "I" attached to
feeling?

Here I am unsure if feelings and thoughts are separate, or if the word feeling is just a synonym for thought. For example, if I am worried about something, it would seem I am 'feeling' worried. But then this 'worry' is just a bundle of thoughts, and would seem inseparable/the same as thought. So the feeling is just a thought.

So, when I said 'I' is a thought/feeling, I meant them as the same thing.

Also,as asked before, can you find the "I" that is conscious?

No, once again, I can't find a conscious autonomous 'I.' The only observable thing that is 'mine' is my physical body and my awareness, and the awareness is not 'I,' it is just awareness.

Here, again, is it "my" consciousness?
Keep looking until your answer is 100% experiential.

My answer is the same as above. Upon looking, I can see that it is "my consciousness" in the sense that it is Harry's physical body and awareness, but that consciousness itself is not "my consciousness" in the sense of being the sum of my experiences and concepts. It is a present awareness, and any notion of it being outside of a present awareness is me experiencing more thought through this awareness.